[Beyond Borders]

Please note that this is about women from native Asian cultures rather than Asians as an ethnicity. This is not a race troll thread - the concepts discussed here are mentioned in just about any book about traveling in Asian societies. It's just a fundamental cultural difference, and I think this is an important discussion for the board given all the guys considering finding a "more traditional" wife in Asian pastures.

In another recent thread, The Lizard of Oz wrote:

Quote:

Realize that while women from other parts of the world, like Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe, often act more feminine and submissive, they are also often more cunning and better actresses than Western women. American women are bitches but as they've become less feminine, they are also more obvious about being bitches and easier to read. Women from other parts of the world are more old fashioned, but that also means more skilled in the traditional feminine strategies of artifice and dissimulation. In the end, I believe that with some effort, suitable girls can be found in various parts of the world, both in the West and elsewhere; but if you go for a girl from a more old fashioned culture, please keep this disclaimer in mind as much as possible.

This got me thinking about the subject of Asians lying.

It's such a part of the culture here to tell lies. Some women will admit to the most outlandish lies that they told to exes, all the while not connecting that they are diminishing your trust in them by confiding this. Or you'll call them out on lying about something and they'll brush it off as having been a long time ago (when it was a month). As if four weeks makes it old history and wipes the slate clean on fibs of the past.

Your friends lying straight to your face about the most mundane shit is run-of-the-mill in Asian societies. Again, any book on cultural issues here will cover this at length.

And the way I understand it, they don't necessarily see anything wrong with it either - in western society, we value "right and wrong," painful truths, and sacrificing your own interest in order to do the right thing. We often feel guilty when we lie rather than just feeling pained when we get caught.

But in Asian society, you don't walk the line and "do the right thing" out of moral obligation. Their motives are more tied to the group - preserving harmony with the group, keeping up image, and looking good in the eyes of the group. This is also said to be true for principled behavior - the motivation is not to do the right thing but to remain in good standing with society. Even the idea of karma is more related to outside forces rather than some internal moral compass.

Getting caught lying, therefore, is to be avoided because it is disgraceful and disrespectful, both for you and the person you lied to. You didn't even go to the trouble of lying well, you asshole - don't you take me seriously...? But it's not because of the issue of right and wrong. It's because of the loss of face. Frustrating enough, that also makes it difficult to call people out on lies, given that you are assertively causing them to lose face.

When you do call them out, they spin new lies to duck and cover. And new lies on top of those. When they finally fess up, they seem to wear it as a badge of honor - claiming that they were "honest with you." As if they had a choice rather than being busted...

Saving face, yet again....

Because of this basic difference in thought process and morality, people lie their asses off (they can be quite good at it), and sometimes almost anything goes as long as you don't get caught. And as we all know, there are more opportunities to do shifty things, relationship-wise, in the modern world.

When dealing with what a Westerner might see as a dulled sense of morality (should you hold this cultural concept to be true - feel free to call BS), that presents a minefield.

As a man dating Asian women in Asia (assuming that you are), where do you draw the line on this? Obviously, you have to bend your principles slightly to date interculturally (or do you?), but there have to be limits if you want to be the king of your castle and relationship.

I'm also interested to hear how currently married guys deal with this, if at all, as I do foresee marrying an Asian broad in the future. Sometimes, however, I wonder if that's a good idea because trust and loyalty are among my most important values. Someone lying to me even about something small severely diminishes my respect for them; it may be a better idea to marry a simple woman that comes from a common cultural and philisophical background.

I would say this is my number one peeve with Asian society and easily the biggest hang-up in the dating arena.

Those of you who have locked down an Asian wifey, how have you juggled this? Do you just learn to deal and never trust them completely to be upfront with you? Is it less of an issue than people make it out to be if you choose the right girl? Or a period of growing pains as you teach them that even little white lies don't fly?

Do you become the extremely controlling male to keep everything tied together? Perhaps that's why the possessive, controlling Asian father stereotypes came about... Do you play the semi-present, semi-absentee husband who goes with the flow and fucks around on the side, who just tries not to overthink things - as many local men seem to do?

I don't think it can be stressed enough how big of a problem this one cultural issue might present for men from Western societies who think that Asian women are the marriage and family prize. Sure, they do have some great points in their favor, but if you come from a Western society, they think very differently than you too - on a deep, deep level.

I think it's also important to recognize that infidelity isn't the only issue here (lest I give the wrong idea). When you have a woman at home, raising your children, tucking uncomfortable truths away from your discerning eyes to avoid your judgment, it could cause untold frustration.

Imagine trying to raise a kid with your wife constantly hiding their (or her) fuck-ups behind your back, or saying she'll hold the kids to certain rules and then telling them not to worry about it when you're not around (thus undermining your authority). I think these are relationship problems that occur often in Asia (Asian members feel free to comment), especially in mixed couples .

Interested to hear thoughts and experiences.

[Menace]

Aren't there two categories of lies: lies about other men she is (potentially) seeing while with you, and everything else?

[Beyond Borders]

^ I'm sure that's how many men deal with it. But read the end of the OP for why it's relevant in other ways.

Personally, when people tell small to medium lies, I seriously doubt their ability to be honest about bigger issues. So for me, even small lies undermine trust a great deal.

There's also the issue of not feeling morally obligated to do things based on an intrisnic sense of right and wrong, which directly relates to whether or not it means anything to be faithful. Traditionally, I think women here remained faithful and proper to preserve their integrity in the eyes of the group.

Somewhat true everywhere, but I could see it being more of an issue here when you add the cultural context with the technology available to the younger generations. Either way, lying and the potential for being unfaithful could be closely related.

[berserk]

I don't know but I'm interested. I think all women lie and I've experienced first hand how extensive the web of lies can get.

[Bushido]

Can only speak for Japan, but closeness of the relationship plays a big part as does the indirect communication style that is employed in much of Asia.

If you call in sick to work in Japan, you say you are "in bad condition". This is often just a way of avoiding stating explicitly that you are hungover and will be coming in later. The issue is never pushed and everyone acts as if you were actually sick for the two hour period. Everything is communicated indirectly but people read between the lines.

When a Japanese director is resigning from the Board of a company, it rarely happens immediately. The title might be changed or he might come to less meetings all of a sudden. You know something is in the air but never certain until months or years later when the directors name is finally removed. Similarly, proposals are never rejected outright but "considered" indefinitely. This drives foreign partners insane but East Asians tend to get what's meant.

Now as for the closeness thing. Girls who don't give a shit about you will flake with stupid excuses. Indeed, this seems to be one if the biggest frustrations of foreigners here who just can't grasp that the girl is being indirect and avoiding conflict instead of saying "I don't want to meet you and never intended to. I only gave you my number to be polite. Now please leave me alone."

On the other hand, I can't recall many times where a close girlfriend lied to me without thinking of it as wrong and profusely apologising. The rules are pretty universal when it comes to serious relationships, I think. After you date for several months, the bullshit phase is over and real feelings and opinions are expressed. But that's just Japan. Maybe the attitude is different elsewhere?

[Sonsowey]

If this is a huge issue for you, and you find that it is endemic throughout Asia, why not go to Europe and find women who share your basic morals to a degree?

Anyone can lie of course but if you think Asian morality about lying is just too different than western morality, western girls would seem to be what you want.

[Onto]

I wonder what would happen if you mirrored her behavior. Would she call you out on your lie? Would she get upset about it?

If she did, then it would be a good opportunity to discuss it. You could say casually, "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought it was ok to lie because last week you lied when you said such and such, so I just thought it's ok not to be truthful."

Then see what she has to say to that.

However, if she would never call you out on lying because of a cultural adversion to doing so, you would have to find another way to deal with it.

[Merenguero]

(08-19-2014 12:43 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

If this is a huge issue for you, and you find that it is endemic throughout Asia, why not go to Europe and find women who share your basic morals to a degree?

Anyone can lie of course but if you think Asian morality about lying is just too different than western morality, western girls would seem to be what you want.

Agreed. The closest thing to honesty you are going to find is in the United States and Europe and even in those places, you know how it is.

[Irish]

(08-19-2014 10:56 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

In another recent thread, The Lizard of Oz wrote:

Quote:

Realize that while women from other parts of the world, like Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe, often act more feminine and submissive, they are also often more cunning and better actresses than Western women. American women are bitches but as they've become less feminine, they are also more obvious about being bitches and easier to read. Women from other parts of the world are more old fashioned, but that also means more skilled in the traditional feminine strategies of artifice and dissimulation. In the end, I believe that with some effort, suitable girls can be found in various parts of the world, both in the West and elsewhere; but if you go for a girl from a more old fashioned culture, please keep this disclaimer in mind as much as possible.

I agree with this. For sure the girls I have noticed here, both Singapore and other girls I have around SE Asia, are a lot more cunning and machiavellian than girls from 'back home' (UK). Then again they are more old fashioned in their attitudes insofar as for a lot of them their life ambition is to ensnare a male who will provide for them (or in the Singapore context that means finance their party lifestyle). Referring mainly to your hotter than average chick, in SE Asia it is more common for them to try and leverage off their their looks be it for short term cash (ie freelance prostitution), free entrance/drinks/VIP table access in clubs, free short/medium accomodation to ultimately full financial security in marriage without having to do a days work ever again. So they have more reliance upon and need for manipulating men for their resources than western girls. So for them the stakes are higher and they are more likely to play dirty. While western are more career driven, earning their own cash, more 'equal' (and having the state back them up) have less 'need' for a man as the provider. Obviously there is less need for them to have to 'manipulate' a guy if all theyre looking for is short term no strings fun. My experience (here) is that girls here will go that bit further when bending the rules to get what they want from a man ie to "lock him down". But then again, maybe it's also because I'm western and am mainly dealing with asian girls who hang out in expat heavy environments. Thus I end up dealing with the the extreme versions who want to bag a white guy.

For example, my Bali chick has now had a long term boyfriend for a while now but still invites me over for a weekend fuck session when he's not in town. Nothing unusal here as compared to western chicks. However, all her close friends know that i'm like the 'special case' who she's allowed to play away with. This to them and her is completely normal and they don't bat an eyelid when she takes to facebook to blab on about how much she loves her boyfriend and sooooo haaaaapy he's back in town after I had been railing her all weekend. To her having a long term fuck buddy behind his back is totally fine even though she is trying to lock him down for marriage. And her friends spinning a web of lies to back her up is par for the course.

But again, I only really ever go for the nightclub party girl. So I guess it is to be expected. I am not looking for a long term girlfriend here, or anywhere, so I dont find it as big an issue. Especially now as I am so used to it. If I was looking for something serious I dont know if I would trust SE Asian chicks anywhere near as much as I would a western chick. I have seen too much here, been 'that guy' too many times thinking 'damn, thank god i'm not her boyfriend' (like the above example). But as I said before, that's the party girls, if I wanted to settle down maybe I would go for a different breed who would be more trusting. who knows

Lying in general, for me, doesn't piss me off all that much really. Depends really on the motive of the lie however. ie if it's not to hurt your feelings etc. I do still lose some respect for the person if it's mainly driven by their inability to face up to a difficult conversation. But it doesn't irritate me as much as it used to. Dunno why, maybe im getting old

[Old Fritz]

It's best to not take anything anyone says at face value. That includes women and men from all walks of life. Everybody lies and is deceitful at times. That sucks but that's reality.

I think it depends. Are you with one of those gaijin hunters or a more traditional one? I think the gaijin hunters are particular worse in this regard. With the more traditional ones, some common ground I believe could be reached

When I dated Japanese women, there were discussions about the communication differences and standards. One in particular we talked for a few hours. Infidelity of course was a topic and she told me she didn't care if I cheated as along as I kept it hidden from her. When she said this, i thought she was only saying it because she wanted to cheat to and she denied that saying she just didn't want to feel shameful about it. I probed more and she admitted to believing that all people cheat anyway and didn't believe I would not do it myself. There was more said but you get the idea. I was still skeptical anyway.

I thought about the shame aspect. Getting criticized for "Wrongdoings" and having it blow up in your face is arguably the worst thing a person in Japan can have happen to them. Members of the Diet still denying their atrocities during WW2 is another example of this.

I still say sitting down with them and talking about it is important. Not many couples do it anymore. It should be noted that this is important when dating a partner from a different culture; not just Asia.

[Beyond Borders]

(08-19-2014 12:43 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

If this is a huge issue for you, and you find that it is endemic throughout Asia, why not go to Europe and find women who share your basic morals to a degree?

Anyone can lie of course but if you think Asian morality about lying is just too different than western morality, western girls would seem to be what you want.

Yes, that's obviously an option.

I prefer Asian women, by far, but I'm not against moving beyond that phase at some point. This is just an issue that is often skipped over when guys mention that they'll probably marry an Asian girl, so I thought it would make for interesting discussion.

I know there are also men on the board happily married with Asian girls who wouldn't have it any other way, and I'm curious about their experiences and thoughts in this department, if any.

[Menace]

Do you think there is variation amongst the Asian cultures BB? Is one group more honest? I date most Asian (fob preferred) and I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary. However these are north East Asian and it's in the US.

[BadWolf]

Quote:

Those of you who have locked down an Asian wifey, how have you juggled this? Do you just learn to deal and never trust them completely to be upfront with you?

One of the things my Chinese wife and I share is an understanding that in order for the marriage to work we need to be truthful with each other. She told me that if I ever cheated, she would cut my balls off. I can respect that, I told her that if she cheated, I would push her off a bridge.

What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander. There doesn't have to be any lying as long as you hold yourself to the same standard you set for the relationship. Asian women are very good at reading between the lines and even if they tell you to cheat, they are going to 'extract' their fair share out of the relationship in a different way. This PUA bullshit about cheating while married is just stupid, you don't get involved with a woman in a government contract just to risk breaking it and losing everything. You have to be fair about things, and yes you'll have loads of opportunities with other women but you have to ask yourself, if you can't trust yourself to make the right decisions how can you know if any of the decisions you've made/will make will be the right ones? It all starts with personal integrity. My wife and I are extremists though and probably not the usual mixed couple pairing.

I had a friend who decided to cheat on his wife with various prostitutes and was blown away when she was OK with it. Well down the line a bit he was devastated when she fvcked some guy at our workplace (without a condom) and ran off with all my friends money... I mean, how stupid do you think people are?

Women might be bitches but they aren't stupid.

[Bushido]

(08-19-2014 12:59 PM)Old Fritz Wrote:  

One in particular we talked for a few hours. Infidelity of course was a topic and she told me she didn't care if I cheated as along as I kept it hidden from her. When she said this, i thought she was only saying it because she wanted to cheat to and she denied that saying she just didn't want to feel shameful about it. I probed more and she admitted to believing that all people cheat anyway and didn't believe I would not do it myself. There was more said but you get the idea. I was still skeptical anyway.

I've been told this on many occasions by Japanese girls. In my experience, this line tends to come from the more traditional Japanese girls (my favourite type). It has nothing to do with their cheating, although I had the same reaction as you initially. This attitude comes from an understanding of men's nature that we need to sleep around from time to time. This awareness used to be common in the West too. The key lies in not getting caught in the act and keeping up appearances.

If you marry a Japanese woman, the cultural expectation is that sex will greatly decline after the kids come along before stopping completely. She becomes the Mother and you the Father (this is literally how they address each other and first names are dropped). You are no longer viewed as lovers. This is a little depressing but it's a very common view in Japan, so be careful if you marry one or you'll be in for a shock!

The reason a Japanese girl gives you permission to cheat in advance is that she knows that the day will come when the marriage will become sexless. Often, it's a case of the guy looking for younger girls to bang rather than the wife not putting out, but I suppose it's probably a combination of the two. Instead of divorce, she prefers that you have a mistress or go to hookers. Of course, she will feel some jealousy inside but a good wife will keep this hidden.

So the point I'm making is this situation is understood by both parties in the marriage - it's just unspoken. Sure, there might be some lies told but that is done to save face and continue things the way they are. These are not "black" lies, but "white" ones for the most part.

That said, there are the more westernized Japanese girls who are jealous as fuck and will demand to know every detail of your life. They demand 50:50 and open and honest communication about everything. All the normal tact is dropped and they are possessive as they come. These girls are a huge pain in the ass. Give me an indirect, non-confrontational and traditional Japanese girl any day of the week.

[Kabal]

(08-19-2014 10:56 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

...in western society, we value "right and wrong," painful truths, and sacrificing your own interest in order to do the right thing...

Eh heh heh I think you may have been away from the West for too long, and are viewing western society with primrose glasses.

Western society is incredibly uncomfortable with painful truths, hence political correctness...

See how westerners handle these truths:
1. Dating market value for women is almost entirely dictated by looks
2. Partially as a result of 1., even semi-decent-looking girls or better have no intellectual depth or semblance of personality
3. Girls are but half-children, lacking reason and never being fully accountable for the consequences of their own actions
4. Certain population groups have lower/higher IQs, higher/lower propensities for violence, higher/lower discount rates etc. than others, and this difference is substantially mediated by genetics
5. Certain population groups have an easier/harder time getting into colleges/workplaces as a result of 4., since observed differences are assumed to be the result of "racism"
6. There is absolutely no evidence that cognitive traits are identical across groups, whether it be sex or race, but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary

etc. etc.

[RawGod]

I think BB is mainly getting at SEA girls ability to tell outrageous lies in the most childlike way. Japanese are totally different, it's all reticence and evasion, and Chinese seem to be different again.

I seem to be a Japanese born in a Caucasian body, so their style suits me. I just get their indirectness since I am the same way and I can take a hint.

[Old Fritz]

(08-19-2014 08:17 PM)dreambig Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 12:59 PM)Old Fritz Wrote:  

One in particular we talked for a few hours. Infidelity of course was a topic and she told me she didn't care if I cheated as along as I kept it hidden from her. When she said this, i thought she was only saying it because she wanted to cheat to and she denied that saying she just didn't want to feel shameful about it. I probed more and she admitted to believing that all people cheat anyway and didn't believe I would not do it myself. There was more said but you get the idea. I was still skeptical anyway.

I've been told this on many occasions by Japanese girls. In my experience, this line tends to come from the more traditional Japanese girls (my favourite type). It has nothing to do with their cheating, although I had the same reaction as you initially. This attitude comes from an understanding of men's nature that we need to sleep around from time to time. This awareness used to be common in the West too. The key lies in not getting caught in the act and keeping up appearances.

If you marry a Japanese woman, the cultural expectation is that sex will greatly decline after the kids come along before stopping completely. She becomes the Mother and you the Father (this is literally how they address each other and first names are dropped). You are no longer viewed as lovers. This is a little depressing but it's a very common view in Japan, so be careful if you marry one or you'll be in for a shock!

The reason a Japanese girl gives you permission to cheat in advance is that she knows that the day will come when the marriage will become sexless. Often, it's a case of the guy looking for younger girls to bang rather than the wife not putting out, but I suppose it's probably a combination of the two. Instead of divorce, she prefers that you have a mistress or go to hookers. Of course, she will feel some jealousy inside but a good wife will keep this hidden.

So the point I'm making is this situation is understood by both parties in the marriage - it's just unspoken. Sure, there might be some lies told but that is done to save face and continue things the way they are. These are not "black" lies, but "white" ones for the most part.

That said, there are the more westernized Japanese girls who are jealous as fuck and will demand to know every detail of your life. They demand 50:50 and open and honest communication about everything. All the normal tact is dropped and they are possessive as they come. These girls are a huge pain in the ass. Give me an indirect, non-confrontational and traditional Japanese girl any day of the week.

Ahh I gotcha. I still believe traditional Japanese women are some of the best women you could raise a family with. The aren't perfect and there are some key issues but it's worth it once you get them to open up to you.

[RXB]

Living abroad ha only taught me one thing about relationships: All Women Are Like That.

Foreign girls do the same stuff guys complain about Western women doing. They're just as dishonest, manipulative, and shallow.

Guys always like to argue "foreign girls can't be sluts, they live at home!" I've banged dozens of chicks who, after leaving my place, went home to eat rice for dinner with mom and dad.

American girls just shoot dudes down. That's way more benign in the long run. Having a girl ditch you actually filters out unpleasant women.

Foreign girls act sweet, but ensnare you in their traps. If you have a foreign girlfriend you'd better get ready to be in game mode 100% of the time. Stuff like lying, deception, and outright manipulation are commonplace.

Before guys mouth off about how awesome foreign girls are they should ask themselves this: "If foreign women are so great why do the local men complain about them and try to hide from their wives?"

This might sound like I'm being bitter, but I think it's something that every aspiring player should be aware of. All women, from every part of the globe, will destroy you if given the chance. I like foreign women and am generally happy with them, but you have to stay vigilant at all times.

[Beyond Borders]

(08-19-2014 03:09 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Do you think there is variation amongst the Asian cultures BB? Is one group more honest? I date most Asian (fob preferred) and I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary. However these are north East Asian and it's in the US.

Yes, I would assume that SEA girls are the more extreme in this regard. I've heard the Japanese are more in line with Western thinking (though obviously still very different), and the ones I've met seem quite baffled by the Thais and Khmers. My Asian experience is confined mostly to SEA, and I'm sure it varies throughout Asia.

That said, the concepts of face and the group being more valued over the individual are at their core very Asian.

Also, what type of dating are we talking about? Women born and/or raised in America may not exhibit many signs, and these types of lies are very difficult to detect for the uninitiated. People born into this type of deception are very believable.

So if you're just seeing these girls for a short time, you probably won't notice. It takes time to see through the BS.

(08-19-2014 09:08 PM)Kabal Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 10:56 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

...in western society, we value "right and wrong," painful truths, and sacrificing your own interest in order to do the right thing...

Eh heh heh I think you may have been away from the West for too long, and are viewing western society with primrose glasses.

I don't think I am. I don't plan on giving up on Asia or Asian women any time soon.

And there's a big difference between the examples you mentioned and what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the basis of thinking - concepts that are deeply entrenched in the philosophy, way of life, and paradigms of the people. I'm talking about the very foundation of their thought processes.

Yes, people lie in the West, and yes, things are changing. But our thought processes and paradigms stem from an entirely different line of philisophical thought. Our ancient philosophies weren't just mental masturbation - they affect the way we think and behave today. They affect the way we see and respond to the world.

Again, none of this is anything I've made up - it can all be read about in cultural texts by people who can explain it far better than me. Or you can observe it yourself by dating or having friendships with Asian people and you'll definitely notice the difference in time.

For the most part, Western behaviors are often attached to guilt, while Asian behaviors are attached to shame. One of those is rooted in morality and the other is rooted in your standing with a group - that may seem like a subtle distinction, but the implications for conflict are extreme.

Here's some relevant reading for anyone interested: http://www.china-mike.com/chinese-cultur...t-of-face/ This piece is mostly about Chinese, but the principles are a bit universal in the Orient.

[Virtus]

http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

Edit. Replied before reading the post above. BB beat me to it. Yup . Shame vs guilt

[El Chinito loco]

(08-19-2014 11:52 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

For the most part, Western behaviors are often attached to guilt, while Asian behaviors are attached to shame. One of those is rooted in morality and the other is rooted in your standing with a group - that may seem like a subtle distinction, but the implications for conflict are extreme.

It's not so black and white. For example in places like Japan there is a strong face component but there is also a lot of personal guilt. As a result the social contract is strong there.

In Thailand and many other SEA nations the face component is strong but there is little personal guilt. It's all face for the most part. This means people are capable of the most despicable acts and as long as they aren't called out for it, it's like it never happened.

For ethnic Chinese it can be a mixed bag. Taiwan is more like Japan whereas mainland Chinese are more like SEA.

[iknowexactly]

"Girls are but half-children, lacking reason and never being fully accountable for the consequences of their own actions "

They're just little kids, but greedier. And have inordinate love of babies and cute things, if they are normally feminine. There's not a lot to figure out about them.

And not too bright either, except in the ways of social maneuvering.

So I just watch for submissiveness and obedience, if they do these, I don't care why. If they won't do these, I don't care why either .

Credit to Roosh again , You don't have to understand women, you just have to discern whether they're going to do what you want or not.

You aren't really going to try to figure out what's going on in that foggy, delusional mind of hers, are you?

[Phoenix]

I never had it be a problem, or really noticed, other than people blatently telling me directions or instructions that they fabricated on the spot. 'Sorry, I don't know' would be much nicer. Doesn't achieve the 'looking polite' they are aiming for; achieves 'looking like a fucking idiot'.

I treat people's words as a mere 'mild hint' as to what they have actually done or are going to do, though, so maybe I just don't notice lies that well. Avoids disappointment when you are already assuming poor behavior.

[iknowexactly]

(08-20-2014 12:47 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 11:52 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

For the most part, Western behaviors are often attached to guilt, while Asian behaviors are attached to shame. One of those is rooted in morality and the other is rooted in your standing with a group - that may seem like a subtle distinction, but the implications for conflict are extreme.

It's not so black and white. For example in places like Japan there is a strong face component but there is also a lot of personal guilt. As a result the social contract is strong there.

+1 rep, incisive analysis of internal vs. external motivators in Asia

[Beyond Borders]

(08-20-2014 12:47 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 11:52 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

For the most part, Western behaviors are often attached to guilt, while Asian behaviors are attached to shame. One of those is rooted in morality and the other is rooted in your standing with a group - that may seem like a subtle distinction, but the implications for conflict are extreme.

It's not so black and white. For example in places like Japan there is a strong face component but there is also a lot of personal guilt. As a result the social contract is strong there.

In Thailand and many other SEA nations the face component is strong but there is little personal guilt. It's all face for the most part. This means people are capable of the most despicable acts and as long as they aren't called out for it, it's like it never happened.

For ethnic Chinese it can be a mixed bag. Taiwan is more like Japan whereas mainland Chinese are more like SEA.

Hmmm...seems to be a recurring theme that Japan may differ a bit in this aspect.

What you've said has me more interested in Japan and Taiwan - two countries I've already had my eye on for a while. Might be the cultural balance I'm looking for.

I do find that the Japanese I've met are much more on the level when it comes to conversation than citizens of other Asian countries. They also seem far more upfront, open-minded, and intellectually curious (the ones who travel, anyhow).