[Quintus Curtius]

I wanted to share a very interesting comment made by a tonsured monk in my most recent article at Return of Kings ("How To Write In A Foreign Language").

Yes, you read that correctly.

This brother's handle is "Cui Pertinebit". The most startling comment is this one, in which he appreciates the red pill wisdom of the manosphere, and registers his contempt for contemporary culture, as we do here. In the comments, I asked him what order he belonged to. He replied at length:

Quote:

Camaldolese would be the best description of it. I'm Catholic, but my hermitage is not incorporated into the governing structure of the larger orders; Camaldolese spirituality makes room for a half-way point between eremitical and cenobitic (community) life, under the Rule of St. Benedict's spirit of moderation. I was tonsured a monk by my bishop, and my hermitage is in the process of becoming an institute of diocesan right.

The past century saw the invasion of modernism and all its falsehoods into the very bosom of the Church. What many men have dubbed "Churchianity," as I gather, eclipsed the true doctrine and nature of the Church. I believe that the Virgin predicted this crisis was to come, in her apparition at Fatima. I know some will think that religion or credence in the supernatural is a sign of idiocy or effeminacy, but, predictably, I disagree. The apparition at Fatima is striking to me, for the public notoriety of its miraculous events, and for the accuracy of its predictions about the 20th century: that Russia's errors would eventually contaminate the entire Earth (Communism, Socialism, Progressivism), even putting the "Church in eclipse," pitting the highest ranks of the clergy against each other in a major apostasy, dragging them and many thousands of the laity who blindly followed them into hell.

I would say that is exactly what has been happening in Western civilization for the past 60 years or so. For that reason, I found it impossible to simply join one of the established orders, which have all been appropriated by the modernists, and became an hermit instead.

Anyway, I realized some of the red pill truths about women a long time ago, but I also believe very firmly that a man needs to be honorable and virtuous. I was not willing to marry in the current culture, and I was also not willing to become an hedonist or sexual opportunist. I realized celibacy and a life lived in pursuit of manly virtue and the supreme Good was the only honorable path I could take, as a man in my position. I also realized that the monks preserved Western civilization the first time it went through a crisis, and we'll need some of them around to do it again.

I'm glad to volunteer for the job. I've amassed a library that covers the basic elements of mathematics, medicine, philosophy, law, etc., and I've tried to retain competence in basic mathematics (to algebra/trig), scientific knowledge and logic. I've got a library of many Classical and Patristic texts in the original Greek or Latin, and have undertaken the study of Greek and Latin as the key to the Western tradition. Also, frankly, I wanted to understand the authentic teachings of the Church before the modernists started disseminating their nonsense, always unofficially, in the 60s. Greek and Latin have helped with that - which, I'm sure, is why the modernists were so eager to banish Latin from the liturgy and the seminaries. I hope to God that there will be no call for me to preserve these things through a crisis. But, if there is, I'm ready to try and do so.

I like to read the "red pill" sites, because it pleases me to no end, to see that even secular men are starting to realize that the Church and the Patriarchy were right about manliness, hierarchy, the role of authority and tradition in society, etc. I suppose that not all "red-pill" sites are explicitly reactionary or neo-reactionary, and I know that many guys are only interested, initially, in "game" for the sake of getting laid. But in the process, they take a big swipe at feminism.

Feminism is the belly of the beast, at present; by dissenting from it, they put themselves on a trajectory that could lead them to neo-reaction/reaction/traditionalism, and in fact I often observe that this occurs. And then it is my turn to be "pleased and amused," that men who frequent a site like this are starting to have some ideological common ground with men of the cloth, who have always taught things about contraception, sexuality, patriarchy, authority, masculinity, etc., that many men are just now re-discovering. I am glad that the pleasure and amusement is mutual.

To me, his comment raises some interesting discussion points:

1. To what extent does manosphere ("red pill") teachings intersect with traditional religious doctrine?

2. Are we likely to see a revival of traditional religion, as a backlash against feminist excesses?

3. Will traditional institutions continue to function, as they did in the remote past, as preservers of traditional civilization in the face of barbarian onslaughts?


.

[Truth Teller]

If you read the Bible from a red pill context, it does make sense.

As Jesus said: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things" (1 Corinthians 13:11).

If you think about it, WHAT IS THE RED PILL? The red pill is to "put away childish things." You put away your Disney-esque romantic notions, your one-itis notions, your notions of women being perfect little angels. I'm not a Christian, but it makes a lot of sense.

As for #2, I don't know. I will say that the religious are reproducing at an extremely high rate. In Israel, the fastest growing demographics are the Ultra-Orthodox Jews and the Muslims. In most Western European countries, the Muslims are the fastest growing group. Obviously, as someone religious, my personal hope is that it will cause a return in religious observance, but you can't be sure.

Ironically, although the West prevailed during the Cold War, the Marxists seem to be winning in the long run. The West has become progressively more liberal since 1990.

#3, yes, I do think so. If history is any indication, religious/traditional institutions will preserve what they can in the face of societal collapse. The Roman Catholic Church, for all the terrible things it did, did preserve Classical civilization as best it could in the face of chaos. I can't imagine how long society would've taken to rebuild if the Church didn't maintain that knowledge.

[Wutang]

Though I have some reservations about if this guy is really what he says he is, I still agree with what he is espousing.

As for a revival of religion, don't know about that. I think we may see more "fellow travelers", kind of like the people in the neo-reactionary part of the manosphere that support the Catholic Church even if they are irreligious themselves. Brevik, the guy who shot up those teens in Norway wasn't particularly religious himself (though he did appear to be a theist) but he choose to align himself with the Church of Norway as kind of a "f you" to what he saw were destructive forces and he also talked about the Catholic Church being the bulwark against the negative forces in modernism.

[soup]

1) I think we intersect with religious doctrine in that we probably agree with some religions that women are sort of out of control these days, and probably not for the better.

I also think that the monk's life of focus is similar to our life of focus and discipline at becoming better at game.

I think we go the opposite way from religion when it comes to literally believing that there are supernatural forces because a book or person tells us. That's like a blue pill guy believing that by just being a "nice guy" or "himself" that he will find a good girl because that's what society tell him to believe. I think we are constantly looking for truths and rejecting that which is false. Religions can't fully do this because they are sworn to uphold faith in irrational concepts (like something existing outside of existence).

2) I doubt there will be a revival of religion as backlash to feminism. That would be like trading one fiction for another as your belief system.

3) I think religion is on it's way out right now. There are a lot of people who say they are religious who don't really believe. Keeping that in mind, it's going to be hard to sell religion in the future, so I don't think it will be a viable means of preserving tradition if it's power over people vanishes.

[Quintus Curtius]

@wutang :

Why do you doubt him? Have you read his other comments?
I think he is legit....totally.

Q

[Wutang]

I actually just did a quick Google search of his name and looks like has quite a commenting history on the web. The one thing I'll say is that if he really isn't a Catholic monk then he appear to have done his homework for sure.

I think it's just part of my nature that when I see something that I would love to be true, my first thought is to suspicious because I don't want to be disappointed.

[Dr. Howard]

(07-30-2014 05:38 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

Though I have some reservations about if this guy is really what he says he is, I still agree with what he is espousing.

As for a revival of religion, don't know about that. I think we may see more "fellow travelers", kind of like the people in the neo-reactionary part of the manosphere that support the Catholic Church even if they are irreligious themselves. Brevik, the guy who shot up those teens in Norway wasn't particularly religious himself (though he did appear to be a theist) but he choose to align himself with the Church of Norway as kind of a "f you" to what he saw were destructive forces and he also talked about the Catholic Church being the bulwark against the negative forces in modernism.

There are some interesting younger monks if you run across them. I think the guy could be legit. I knew a monk that used to show up at the church I went to because he thought it was 'interesting to attend services of many churches' the guy walked everywhere but took rides when offered, he was also jacked as apparently you've got alot of time to work out living a life of seclusion and celibacy. Thinking about it, he lived the life of an MGTOW extremist.

[Quintus Curtius]

Very true. Monks these days are educated and technologically proficient.

[Kingsley Davis]

Official forum monk along with this monk.
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-20475....cial+forum

   

[speakeasy]

This guy is the ultimate MGTOW. But in a good way.

[Tough lucky Luke]

"2. Are we likely to see a revival of traditional religion, as a backlash against feminist excesses?"

We ARE already seeing a revival of traditional religions all over the World (though maybe not in the US)!. And yes, one of the reasons is, as a backlash against feminist excesses. Other reason being, as a need for a sense of identity.

[Wutang]

(07-30-2014 06:04 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 05:38 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

Though I have some reservations about if this guy is really what he says he is, I still agree with what he is espousing.

As for a revival of religion, don't know about that. I think we may see more "fellow travelers", kind of like the people in the neo-reactionary part of the manosphere that support the Catholic Church even if they are irreligious themselves. Brevik, the guy who shot up those teens in Norway wasn't particularly religious himself (though he did appear to be a theist) but he choose to align himself with the Church of Norway as kind of a "f you" to what he saw were destructive forces and he also talked about the Catholic Church being the bulwark against the negative forces in modernism.

There are some interesting younger monks if you run across them. I think the guy could be legit. I knew a monk that used to show up at the church I went to because he thought it was 'interesting to attend services of many churches' the guy walked everywhere but took rides when offered, he was also jacked as apparently you've got alot of time to work out living a life of seclusion and celibacy. Thinking about it, he lived the life of an MGTOW extremist.

Kinda reminds me of our old resident MGTOW, cardguy: withdrawn from mainstream society so he has plenty of time and energy to pursue intellectual interests and to dive into areas the guys working 9 to 5 and with a (ex)wife and 2 kids would not be able to. cardguy spent his time reading philosophy and developing his magic skills, this monk studies ancient Green and Latin.

[Quintus Curtius]

While I didn't feel the same career calling as this man did, I agree with much if not all of what he says.

Feminism and modernism are mutually-reinforcing ideologies that were designed to separate us from our traditions, culture, and heritage. These ideologies were foisted on us by a corrupt power elite that wishes to turn us into faceless, nameless consumers, whose only ambition is to get fat and watch TV.

The most precious component of our heritage is contained in Europe's intellectual legacy, which itself is primarily to be found in the classical languages. From ancient times until the 17th century (over 2000 years), pretty much everything was written in Latin.

Red pill ideas are not so much a "discovery" as they are a "rediscovery" of what was lost.

There is more than one way to the truth. Some men find the religious vocation, others find it in other ways.

Masculinity can manifest itself in different ways.

[speakeasy]

(07-30-2014 08:28 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 06:04 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(07-30-2014 05:38 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

Though I have some reservations about if this guy is really what he says he is, I still agree with what he is espousing.

As for a revival of religion, don't know about that. I think we may see more "fellow travelers", kind of like the people in the neo-reactionary part of the manosphere that support the Catholic Church even if they are irreligious themselves. Brevik, the guy who shot up those teens in Norway wasn't particularly religious himself (though he did appear to be a theist) but he choose to align himself with the Church of Norway as kind of a "f you" to what he saw were destructive forces and he also talked about the Catholic Church being the bulwark against the negative forces in modernism.

There are some interesting younger monks if you run across them. I think the guy could be legit. I knew a monk that used to show up at the church I went to because he thought it was 'interesting to attend services of many churches' the guy walked everywhere but took rides when offered, he was also jacked as apparently you've got alot of time to work out living a life of seclusion and celibacy. Thinking about it, he lived the life of an MGTOW extremist.

Kinda reminds me of our old resident MGTOW, cardguy: withdrawn from mainstream society so he has plenty of time and energy to pursue intellectual interests and to dive into areas the guys working 9 to 5 and with a (ex)wife and 2 kids would not be able to. cardguy spent his time reading philosophy and developing his magic skills, this monk studies ancient Green and Latin.

I'm starting to see what MGTOW is all about. Not that I aspire for that, but I can see where they're coming from. Maybe these guys don't have the highest sex drive/testosterone(genetics) and they also don't feel most women are worth the effort for whatever benefit they get from them. They may not want to be entangled in relationships and marriage either and have all the trappings that come along with that. They just want to do their own shit and pursue their own interests, maybe smash a few hookers or get a one night stand from time to time for sexual relief. I don't think that's the worst thing in the world.

I'm sure many MGTOWs have what it takes to pick up, but just don't care to or feel uninspired to bother being an entertaining clown with perfect game, perfect body and perfect logistics for the chance at sex.

[Youngback]

1) When I first found the manosphere and learned of the red pill, what struck me the most was seeing talk of getting laid and game intertwined with a lot of truths I recognized from growing up in the church. Traditional gender roles etc.. I think a lot of guys who haven't spent significant time in a Christian environment would be surprised at how well they could vibe with a lot of its teachings.

I don't subscribe to any religion, but my zealot ass dad will talk for hours about the degradation of society and the disgusting nature of modern American culture. The philosophical parallels between red-pill thinking and biblical scripture could fill a book, or at the very least make for an interesting article.

2) I have to believe so, at first at least. If we as a race are able to pull ourselves from the current stranglehold of the elite
corporate-ocracy which seems poised to dominate indefinitely, then I believe we will see a huge movement back towards traditional thinking, at first via religion, as that has been the source of these ideologies for centuries. These more natural ways of thinking, coupled with our technological advances and increasing knowledge of how the universe functions, will eventually cause people to eschew the religious aspects and retain the philosophical ones. At first, however, I do believe people will flock back to religion as their westernized, fem-centric worldviews fall apart and they seek immediate comfort in the next most established thought-system.

3) I want to think any chance for the preservation of traditional civilization lies in the newer paradigms of technology and information networks (internet). Although those are so dependent on constant energy,
upkeep, and the concept of civilization itself that I could see old temples or church libraries being the only readily accessible records around if anything did happen to upset the way things are now. Maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to move past the concept of "civilization" anyway..

[Truth Teller]

If there's ever a significant EMP, then the US and most of the Western world goes back to the Middle Ages in the blink of an eye. According to NASA, we got lucky about 2 years ago and missed a massive solar flare that would've wiped out the entire world's power grid.

Those libraries and archives will prove useful in the future. Always remember, historically, when a power shift occurs, the first places destroyed are libraries and archives.

[Quintus Curtius]

^^^

Great points.

One other thing I was thinking about a few days ago.

Everyone thinks that, because we have all this "modern technology" like computers, electronic data, etc., etc., that we won't lose information like we did in the past.

But I tend to think that our present civilization will blow away like leaves in the wind...and 1000 years from now, only a fraction of it will survive.

I'm not so sure about this. You might be surprised how perishable electronic information is. I wonder how much of our current civilization will survive into future centuries. Historians tell us that only about 25% of all classical authors' works have come down to us. The rest were all lost: they were not preserved and no copies have survived the centuries.

In the end, maybe the most durable, most permanent types of writings and data that will survive 1000 years from now will be things written the old fashioned way: ink on durable vellum, just like in the Middle Ages.

Those codices written in the Middle Ages are still around, but we can't even read our emails that were written 15 years ago. Think about that.

Maybe instead of investing in more electronic bullshit, we should be copying books onto real vellum in indelible ink.

[Wutang]

Nassim Taleb has talked about this in his works...our current infrastructure is "fragile" as opposed to "anti-fragile" or "robust" - using these terms in the way he does (hint: there's more to it then just the dictionary definitions). There's a trade off between efficiency vs. robustness for any system and according to him, we are heavily tipped towards to the efficiency side of the scale which could lead to lots of problems in the future - such as the doomsday scenarios you guys are discussing above. The example Taleb used as an illustration was power grids - to make them more efficient you have to sacrifice robustness which means that yes you are generating more power but if something goes wrong then a greater part of the grid will go down as there are less backups. I'm sure you guys can easily see how this can be implied to information storage when it comes to storing something on a server vs. a book.

[speakeasy]

(07-30-2014 11:34 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

^^^

Great points.

One other thing I was thinking about a few days ago.

Everyone thinks that, because we have all this "modern technology" like computers, electronic data, etc., etc., that we won't lose information like we did in the past.

But I tend to think that our present civilization will blow away like leaves in the wind...and 1000 years from now, only a fraction of it will survive.

I'm not so sure about this. You might be surprised how perishable electronic information is. I wonder how much of our current civilization will survive into future centuries. Historians tell us that only about 25% of all classical authors' works have come down to us. The rest were all lost: they were not preserved and no copies have survived the centuries.

In the end, maybe the most durable, most permanent types of writings and data that will survive 1000 years from now will be things written the old fashioned way: ink on durable vellum, just like in the Middle Ages.

Those codices written in the Middle Ages are still around, but we can't even read our emails that were written 15 years ago. Think about that.

Maybe instead of investing in more electronic bullshit, we should be copying books onto real vellum in indelible ink.

The cost of storing data is cheap that it's hard to imagine that nearly everything won't be preserved. The very words we're reading and writing here on RVF will outlive us. Everything is archived by google and other search engines and web archivers. It will always exist deep in the bowels of some data warehouse forever.

Will a massive EMP wipe out data on hard drives? A power grid can be restored with time. But will the actual data be lost? We may reach a point soon where we will take all the data accumulated on the planet and store on some satellite in orbit or on the moon so that in case of a cataclysm on Earth, we'll have a backup copy of 10,000 years of knowledge.

[Truth Teller]

(07-30-2014 11:34 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

^^^

Great points.

One other thing I was thinking about a few days ago.

Everyone thinks that, because we have all this "modern technology" like computers, electronic data, etc., etc., that we won't lose information like we did in the past.

But I tend to think that our present civilization will blow away like leaves in the wind...and 1000 years from now, only a fraction of it will survive.

I'm not so sure about this. You might be surprised how perishable electronic information is. I wonder how much of our current civilization will survive into future centuries. Historians tell us that only about 25% of all classical authors' works have come down to us. The rest were all lost: they were not preserved and no copies have survived the centuries.

In the end, maybe the most durable, most permanent types of writings and data that will survive 1000 years from now will be things written the old fashioned way: ink on durable vellum, just like in the Middle Ages.

Those codices written in the Middle Ages are still around, but we can't even read our emails that were written 15 years ago. Think about that.

Maybe instead of investing in more electronic bullshit, we should be copying books onto real vellum in indelible ink.

Yeah, we have approximately 1% of all the information that the Ancient Egyptians produced. Think about that for a minute. 1% of an entire civilization. We know practically nothing about the Egyptians relative to what they actually were. Look at how little actually survived the collapse of Rome. What we know of Classical Mediterranean civilizations is miniscule, relative to what they actually were.

As for the stuff that endures, ink and vellum always will. The Torah is manufactured with very specific types of both. There are readable Torahs in existence from over 800 years ago. Medieval manuscripts are even older in some cases.

[svenski7]

The Church didn't go wrong with the "evil liberals of the 60s."

The Church went wrong when it all of a sudden decided that usury was OK.

Usury is NOT OK.

Everyone on this forum bitching about Monsanto, Big Bracket Banks, Gov't Bailouts, Feminism and the Modern Workplace -- stop and think: If bank were not allowed to lend at high interest rates (usury) on their FRACTIONAL RESERVES -- would we still have 99% of these problems?

The greed for money is the root of all evil. Someone stood to prosper from allowing usury and interest lending between Christians in the Middle Ages. Before that only Jews could lend with interest ... that's what Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice is about...Usury between Jews and Christians. Unfortunately, the Church did not do due diligence and allowed this "modern lending" to take foot in Christian Europe. Even the Vatican has Opus Bank now (which has been accused of money laundering).

[Quintus Curtius]

@Speakeasy:

Yes, exactly. I know Speakeasy makes a good point about the availability of electronic information for the future, but I'm not so sure. Civilization, to survive, needs caretakers who truly want to preserve it.

Brother Speakeasy may be overlooking the fact that all this electronic data is useless unless the people living at that time care about preserving it.

The reason why the old temples, buildings, manuscripts, instruments, and secrets of past civilizations faded away is because no one cared about preserving them. With the advent of Christianity, for example, there was no one who cared about maintaining the old Greek and Roman temples and buildings. So they deteriorated. The same thing happened with the other relics of the classical world.

Some of the treasures of the ancient world are preserved in only one or two manuscripts. Can you believe that? Some literary treasures existed in only one or two monasteries, moldering away, forgotten on the shelves.

Civilization is perishable. People forget that. Our present age is sewing the seeds of its own ruin by doing all the things we note here at RVF.

In the far future, I can see a situation where there is a mass of electronic data out there that no one cares about, or that everyone has forgotten how to "read".

Until some Champollion comes along, maybe, the scholar who deciphered Egyptian heiroglyphs.

[NilNisiOptimum]

1) The Christian Bible has a lot of similar threads that the "red pill" espouses. Both New and Old Testaments. In the Old, you have Jezebel. King Ahab let his pagan wife take control and led the kingdom of Israel to the long road of ruin in exile. ROK even had an article about Queen Vashti in the book of Esther, the queen not deferring to the king. http://www.returnofkings.com/11939/a-les...-the-bible

In the New Testament, simply look to the writings of Paul and Peter. 1 Colossians 13:11 has already been mentioned. Paul's letter to the Romans is full of themes our corner of the internet prides itself on. Self-sacrifice, self-improvement, self-restraint. Then there's 1 Peter 3:1-8...

Quote:

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

2) Are we likely to see a widespread revival of traditional religion? In the foreseeable future, I fear not. Our enemies are legion. Academia, media, government all wield a frightening amount of power in our lives and have shown they are intent on stomping out anything that they perceive as a "false idol" (like God, for instance). Frost pointed out the flight from God as an indicator of rising suicide rates a few months back (http://www.thumotic.com/the-coming-suicide-epidemic/). But in time, traditional religion will return, as birthrates among the devout have been higher than that of the non-believers throughout history. With luck, my children will see that day.

3) Traditional religious institutions start with one place. The family. Faith can be passed down almost as easily and your genes. Children need a strong role model in all areas of life, including their spiritual life. Yet that faith can be snuffed out just as easily with weak adherence to doctrine or uninspiring pastors or parents. A sin of omission is still a sin. A pastor that only quotes 1 Peter 3:7 to his congregation without the preceding six verses is doing more harm that good.

[Glaucon]

Plastic books would have an almost infinite life if not destroyed by fire or something drastic like that.
Maybe when the 3D tech will be cheaper we can print our own plastic books from eBooks and create time capsules for the future.

[lskdfjldsf]

One if the more interesting threads here for sure.

I was raised Catholic but never bought into any of it. It was only after finding the red pill (10 years later) that religion began to make sense to me, as a structure/guideline for self-improvement and traditionalism.

Through my travels and life abroad, exposure to other religions has been one of the most valuable experiences. Even in short passages (regardless which book), lots of knowledge and insight.