[Blaster]

(10-22-2013 10:05 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(10-21-2013 11:50 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

(10-21-2013 10:57 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Problem with computer languages is they keep changing, and as you get older it gets harder and harder to learn new languages. As well as the age bias against you when they company president is 26 and you are 38.

Sort of. Any decent programmer who knows at least one object oriented, functional, and procedural programming language can easily pick up a new language. It's just a matter of figuring out the syntax and any quirks -- the concepts are the same. Every programming language used today falls into one of those 3 types.

Kind of like learning one romance language if you already know another. The general structure and grammar is the same, so you just need to pick up the vocab and any quirks (typically with irregular verbs).

I do agree about age bias, though most people 30+ in the software industry have been promoted to managers of the department by that point.

I keep trying to tell people this when they talk about learning php.

Understanding concepts like object oriented programming is more important. After that, you just learn language syntax and whatever framework they are using.

PHP A fractal of Bad Design

The only reason to learn PHP is if you really want to go wade into someone else's mess and help clean it up. That can be valuable, for sure. But it seems less likely to put you on a good path to grow and advance your skills.

[speakeasy]

For web application development, is it necessary to learn Ruby before learning RoR?

[the_ox]

I don't if rails guys are making a lot of money... almost everyday I receive job opportunities from all over the world, most of them are from UK (a place that, as far as I know, pays OK for IT guys) and the guys from Rails are receiving 40K pounds at most

Usually, if you are specialist in one software/tool (mainly SAP, but Oracle database, Siebel, JDEdwards, OIM, some middlewares [SOA], Business Intelligence and so on) you will get a nice salary, regarding the place you are located at

Java developers usually get a nice salary, sometimes I see salaries going higher than 150K in US (NY). But the real money are with the guys who are team leaders or architects (Java mainly, but some .NET and Rails may get good returns too).

[speakeasy]

So here's another way of asking the OP's question, and this might be helpful for guy's browsing here who want a career change. Suppose a guy with no background in IT wanted to make a career change into that field. What would you suggest him learning(ideally something that didn't require going back to college for years) that would be get him up and going with a decent salary within a couple years. By decent I mean at least 60-80k.

[Blaster]

(10-22-2013 03:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

For web application development, is it necessary to learn Ruby before learning RoR?

I would say you can learn Ruby and RoR at the same time. If you're excited about the idea of web applications but don't want to feel as if you're stopping to learn Ruby, there are options that will teach you necessary ruby along the way: http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-ra...orial-book

If you want to learn all of the base components before learning what Rails actually does for you, then you'll want to learn Ruby, MySQL, and base web concepts first (HTTP/CGI/HTML/CSS/Javascript). This is a rigorous way to learn, but it's easy to get lost or discouraged because it may be awhile before you have a complete application to show for your efforts. But you can also start with rails, just accept various defaults and follow rote instructions to get a basic web app up and running very quickly. You can then start tweaking to learn Ruby/SQL/HTTP/HTML/CSS/Javascript from there.

[speakeasy]

(10-22-2013 05:33 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

(10-22-2013 03:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

For web application development, is it necessary to learn Ruby before learning RoR?

I would say you can learn Ruby and RoR at the same time. If you're excited about the idea of web applications but don't want to feel as if you're stopping to learn Ruby, there are options that will teach you necessary ruby along the way: http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-ra...orial-book

If you want to learn all of the base components before learning what Rails actually does for you, then you'll want to learn Ruby, MySQL, and base web concepts first (HTTP/CGI/HTML/CSS/Javascript). This is a rigorous way to learn, but it's easy to get lost or discouraged because it may be awhile before you have a complete application to show for your efforts. But you can also start with rails, just accept various defaults and follow rote instructions to get a basic web app up and running very quickly. You can then start tweaking to learn Ruby/SQL/HTTP/HTML/CSS/Javascript from there.

I actually already know the basic front-end stuff highlighted above(except CGI) and I know enough to build custom Wordpress sites.

[paninaro]

(10-22-2013 12:05 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

You're logically right, but my experience is NO ONE except a current employer that likes you and wants to keep you is willing to cross train.

People CAN learn similar languages" BUT not 1/10,000 ads says something like "Looking for Ruby programmer, can cross-train python programmer."

To the contrary, they not only specify a specific language, they also often specify specific environments related to that language-- LIke "Ruby on Rails" etc.

Ok for some job ads, I'd agree, but it really depends on the company and what level they are technically. In a former job I had, we just hired smart people with CS degrees from top schools. We didn't care what languages they knew. Usually you hand a guy a book about whatever language needs to be used that day, and he can be coding in it by the end of the day... the concepts are all the same, so it's just the syntax. Actually I guess I could do that too, if I wanted to get back into programming.

Now that was at a software company where they not only have to use tools, but they have to innovate and push the technical limits. That's different from a company where IT is important but not their main line of business. Think inventory management and billing systems. Those are fairly standard needs that many companies have, and likewise they don't need to push the limits technically. There are probably plenty more jobs out there like that (just because those companies outnumber software companies), so they probably do look for someone with a specific language skill.

I still chuckle when I see the number of companies where I go to their site and the page name ends in .asp or .cfm (Classic ASP and ColdFusion). ASP is now 13 years old -- the last release was in 2000. It's old technology, but it works fine. I think a lot of non-IT companies still use it everyday, because they have little need to innovate or spend to move to a newer technology.

Err, I guess I've gone on a tangent here. There's basically two levels of software developers. The ones who really get it, who can indeed learn a near language in a day, understand the "art" of coding, and so on. They usually end up at startup companies and/or software companies. They also make huge salaries because there are so few people like this.

Then there's the other type, which is probably a greater number since every company basically needs some in-house IT. They "get it" enough to get the job done, decently enough. It's not their life, but they get by. They still make a decent salary, and they have good job security (IT runs everything these days), but they're not going to be buying a Ferrari any time soon.

[Blaster]

(10-22-2013 05:24 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

So here's another way of asking the OP's question, and this might be helpful for guy's browsing here who want a career change. Suppose a guy with no background in IT wanted to make a career change into that field. What would you suggest him learning(ideally something that didn't require going back to college for years) that would be get him up and going with a decent salary within a couple years. By decent I mean at least 60-80k.

I would say Unix/Linux and Python. You can go a long way with just those two technologies.

Linux is not going anywhere any time soon. It's very powerful and very well designed in that it has many core components that smart people can combine in new and interesting ways to solve problems both large and small. There's a somewhat steep initial learning curve, but after that is a long, gradual, and highly rewarding path forward for someone who is disciplined and dedicated.

Also, the Free and Open Source communities are fantastic places to learn for very low cost, if you're willing to put in the effort.

It's not a "learn this skill in a week get a job", it requires dedication and discipline. But that's why it's valuable.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-22-2013 05:46 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I actually already know the basic front-end stuff highlighted above(except CGI) and I know enough to build custom Wordpress sites.

Speakeasy, do you know how to create Wordpress plugins and themes?

[Blaster]

(10-22-2013 05:46 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(10-22-2013 05:33 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

(10-22-2013 03:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

For web application development, is it necessary to learn Ruby before learning RoR?

I would say you can learn Ruby and RoR at the same time. If you're excited about the idea of web applications but don't want to feel as if you're stopping to learn Ruby, there are options that will teach you necessary ruby along the way: http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-ra...orial-book

If you want to learn all of the base components before learning what Rails actually does for you, then you'll want to learn Ruby, MySQL, and base web concepts first (HTTP/CGI/HTML/CSS/Javascript). This is a rigorous way to learn, but it's easy to get lost or discouraged because it may be awhile before you have a complete application to show for your efforts. But you can also start with rails, just accept various defaults and follow rote instructions to get a basic web app up and running very quickly. You can then start tweaking to learn Ruby/SQL/HTTP/HTML/CSS/Javascript from there.

I actually already know the basic front-end stuff highlighted above(except CGI) and I know enough to build custom Wordpress sites.

I would say you should probably start out learning Rails and dig deeper as you feel like it. But seriously, Ruby is not that scary. If you can write Javascript you can learn Ruby.

PS

HTTP just means understading things like "GET", "PUT", sessions, and cookies.

By CGI I mean configuring production-quality webservers (apache and nginx) to run your applications.

[Northern]

(10-21-2013 08:38 PM)iWin Wrote:  

Two big ones are cloud computing skills and virtualization skills.

Cloud computing is exploding because ...

Another market that can be easily outsourced.

[Northern]

(10-22-2013 05:24 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

So here's another way of asking the OP's question, and this might be helpful for guy's browsing here who want a career change. Suppose a guy with no background in IT wanted to make a career change into that field. What would you suggest him learning(ideally something that didn't require going back to college for years) that would be get him up and going with a decent salary within a couple years. By decent I mean at least 60-80k.

I'd say ASP.NET plus C# or VB.NET. It is not as "cool" as Java, so it will be only 60-80k

[speakeasy]

(10-22-2013 06:05 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(10-22-2013 05:46 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I actually already know the basic front-end stuff highlighted above(except CGI) and I know enough to build custom Wordpress sites.

Speakeasy, do you know how to create Wordpress plugins and themes?

Plugins no, my PHP skills are not quite there, but I would typically create child themes and heavily modify them to do what a client needs. For most small businesses, there's a already plugin in the WP ecosystem for almost any situation you can imagine that's ready for use and/or modification.

I don't know how much I want to commit to learning PHP in and out. I may just put my effort into Ruby/RoR.

[iknowexactly]

(10-22-2013 05:51 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

(10-22-2013 12:05 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

You're logically right, but my experience is NO ONE except a current employer that likes you and wants to keep you is willing to cross train.

People CAN learn similar languages" BUT not 1/10,000 ads says something like "Looking for Ruby programmer, can cross-train python programmer."

To the contrary, they not only specify a specific language, they also often specify specific environments related to that language-- LIke "Ruby on Rails" etc.

Ok for some job ads, I'd agree, but it really depends on the company and what level they are technically. In a former job I had, we just hired smart people with CS degrees from top schools.

Eliminating 98% + of people reading this on Roosh and retraining or coming in from the cold of non-elite schools.

[the_ox]

(10-23-2013 12:21 AM)Northern Wrote:  

(10-21-2013 08:38 PM)iWin Wrote:  

Two big ones are cloud computing skills and virtualization skills.

Cloud computing is exploding because ...

Another market that can be easily outsourced.

Indeed.

Instead of having a lot of guys taking care of company's servers, in the future we will have only one or two taking care of many virtualized servers. I think it is a very interesting niche, however, it is a very small market with few vacancies around the globe and a lot of crazy guys making the best effort to get into.

[Remington]

I do consultant work for companies that need to verify IT skills for job candidates. Here are the IT skills that are most requested/demanded:

.NET
C#
C++
Sharepoint
SQL
Java, Javascript, J2EE

[Icarus]

(10-21-2013 11:50 PM)paninaro Wrote:  

Any decent programmer who knows at least one object oriented, functional, and procedural programming language can easily pick up a new language. It's just a matter of figuring out the syntax and any quirks -- the concepts are the same. Every programming language used today falls into one of those 3 types.

Michael O. Church, whose blog I highly recommend, has some interesting ideas on this topic:

Quote:

Eric Raymond, in “How to Become a Hacker“, recommended five languages: C, Java, Python, Perl, and Lisp. Each he recommended for different reasons: Python and Java as introductory languages, C to understand and hack Unix, Perl because of its use in scripting, and Lisp for, to use his words which are so much better than anything I can come up with, the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it. That experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use LISP itself a lot.

It’s 2012. Many languages have come to the fore that didn’t exist when this essay was written. Others, like Perl, have faded somewhat. What is today’s five-language list? I won’t pretend that my answer is necessarily the best; it’s biased based on what I know. That said, I’d think the 5 highest-return languages for people who want to become good engineers are the following, and in this order: Python, C, ML, Clojure, and Scala.

[This Is Trouble]

As someone else said, big data, and ENTERPRISE cloud computing.

Companies that are paying millions of dollars a year in service contracts aren't willing to have it outsourced to "Bob from India."

[Cattle Rustler]

What skills/languages/programs are needed for big data or "da cloud"?

[El_Superbeasto]

(10-24-2013 05:08 PM)TroubleMaker Wrote:  

As someone else said, big data, and ENTERPRISE cloud computing.

By "big data", I assume you mean data mining and machine learning? In silicon valley at least, this is a very hot area right now, and I can only see it growing with the recent explosion in information being collected on people, the quantified self movement, etc.

That being said, the barriers to entry are a little higher than many other IT related fields. You'd probably want to have a graduate level understanding of statistics to really know what you're doing with it.

If I haven't dissuaded you, then knowing R (open source statistical computing language) is absolutely essential, and the book "The Elements of Statistical Learning" is pretty much the bible of the field. Also, Kaggle offers some competitions and forums where you can exercise and develop your skills a bit.

[speakeasy]

Okay here is another spin on the original question and this may also help the type of people who frequent this site. What is the best IT skill for location independence?

[The Beast1]

(10-21-2013 07:59 PM)RichieP Wrote:  

It's definitely lucrative, and good devs are in massive demand, but "$150k easy starting salary" isnt the norm at all.

Even if you go to a state college and get a comp sci degree, mid range salaries for developers are around $85k to $95k depending on the market.

I'd rather be a computer developer in LA making $95k a year than a welder making $150k in the middle of nowhere Canada.

(10-24-2013 05:42 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Okay here is another spin on the original question and this may also help the type of people who frequent this site. What is the best IT skill for location independence?

It depends on the company. Most if not all IT work can be done remote. Heck, I can do my job anywhere I have an internet connection and a phone. I need to maintain an "office presence" because of the support work I do. People like having real bodies in front of them.

It really depends on how you negotiate a WFH benefit when getting hired. Again the more valuable you are, the easier it is to get that.