[rivelino]

the one thing you should never tell your boss:

"it wasn't my fault."

i am in charge of a team of five people. in previous jobs, i had been in charge of maximum one or two people, usually one person and an intern. now my team is five, sometimes more. i have more responsibility, more things to get done, and less patience with mistakes. but the *one* thing that drives me crazy is hearing excuses.

one person on my team, she was always making excuses. i couldn't stand it. eventually she quit because she knew i wasn't happy with her and her time was running out.

another new person on my team, he also makes mistakes, but at least he *always* takes responsibility for his mistakes. so far, it's his saving grace. i have never heard him make an excuse for something he did wrong.

one thing i learned a while ago, which i am finally realizing the genius of, is saying:

"it's my fault, and it won't happen again."

always always take full responsibility for anything that your boss criticizes you about. in fact, it even works as sort of a "reverse psychology" thing. the more responsibility you take, the less your boss will directly blame you (at least sometimes).

point is, no excuses.

remember this.

[CJ_W]

(07-08-2013 04:24 AM)rivelino Wrote:  

the one thing you should never tell your boss:

"it wasn't my fault."

i am in charge of a team of five people. in previous jobs, i had been in charge of maximum one or two people, usually one person and an intern. now my team is five, sometimes more. i have more responsibility, more things to get done, and less patience with mistakes. but the *one* thing that drives me crazy is hearing excuses.

one person on my team, she was always making excuses. i couldn't stand it. eventually she quit because she knew i wasn't happy with her and her time was running out.

another new person on my team, he also makes mistakes, but at least he *always* takes responsibility for his mistakes. so far, it's his saving grace. i have never heard him make an excuse for something he did wrong.

one thing i learned a while ago, which i am finally realizing the genius of, is saying:

"it's my fault, and it won't happen again."

always always take full responsibility for anything that your boss criticizes you about. in fact, it even works as sort of a "reverse psychology" thing. the more responsibility you take, the less your boss will directly blame you (at least sometimes).

point is, no excuses.

remember this.

Good post.

I see you're living in Spain. I was wondering about some of the stereotypes about Spanish people when it comes to work. . .

A lot of the ones that I've heard is that, they like to come late to work, don't really do much work in the first place, and are generally. . .difficult to motivate/inspire, and just like to party all the time.

Is it true? Do you find that you're having a hard time getting your employees to work?

[Nemencine]

sorry lads, i have to disagree.

Okay, i will agree if it is clearly your fault. That is easy. Take responsibility. Unless you can create a solid, convincing way to shift the blame or muddle the water. then do it.

The interesting situation is when it is not clearly your fault...or it can be spin one way or the other. i will suggest that you go on the offensive. It is killed or be killed.

The last thing you want is to come across as the lad that it is always his fault. "it is always rivelino fault..rivelino cannot do anything the right way..."

Believe me, you dont want that MEME entrenched and circulated and established about you. Rumours creates beliefs in the workplace. People that havent met you will believe these false rumours. It is the human condition.

Also, if it is not your fault and you just lie there and take it in the name of being responsible, it portrays you as a pushover, a weak person...somebody not fit for leadership...the next time jennifer did something wrong and looking for a weak target to blame for her mistakes...it is going to be you....the next time Emily needs a target...guess what? it is going to be you....the next time Andrew needs somebody to blame...you get the picture.

There is going to be office politics. You dont want to appear weak...you want to raise the costs of people using or exploiting or treating you like crap.

It will get worse if the unofficial leader of the group selects you as his or her target...next thing you know...everybody starts lining up to gangrape you.

Be nice, be cool...be affable....however, turn into a tigerish animal the minute people tries to hang you for their shite.

otherwise, you will just establish a pattern. Patterns can be hard to break.

The best part is when they are blaming things on you in a passive aggressive manner and complimenting you at the same time. DONT EVER FALL FOR THAT. ever!

How you demanded to be treated is the way you will end up being treated.

A victim is still a victim at the end of the day, regardless of how many people sympathizes with him or her. Dont be a victim. It is better to be feared than to be loved at the workplace. It is even better to be feared and respected than to be loved and disrespected at the workplace.

these are not your friends. you only work with them.

after you've left that workplace...how many will call you to spend time with you? 1 or...most likely: zero. out of sight, out of mind.

There is only one priorities at the workplace: yours. you are numero uno.

that is all i have to say.

[emuelle1]

Yep, my boss doesn't want to hear excuses. If I'm responsible for something, I am responsible, even if I had to delegate it to somebody else.

[rivelino]

@CJ_W
my impression is that people in spain do work, but they don't really aspire to have amazing careers, so they don't like to overstress themselves, or if they do, very rarely. it's like that saying, they "work to live, not live to work". most everyone likes to have a nice work life balance.

but the reasons are more sinister. people here don't dream. they don't aspire to greatness. they just want a stable job, and to "enjoy" life. i have been in spain 2 years, and i can see the beauty of america. men like steve jobs, bill gates, mark zuckerberg, they embody the american values of BIG DREAMS and HELL YEAH I CAN CHANGE THE WORLD. where is the spanish steve jobs? he doesn't exist. and if he did exist, his culture sapped away his big dreams, and replaced them with low risk government job dreams. it's sad really.

oh yeah, and because the culture is so stagnant, the old people are still in power, and the young people *really* stop dreaming about being great, so they just get more education. it's a terrible cycle of intellectual and entrepreneurial stagnation. i've become a lot more proud to be american since i've moved to spain.

[EasyMoney]

When you fuck up, and its completely on you, I agree you have to sack up and take responsibility for it. Don't be a bitch.

But sometimes your boss will pin something on you that you had absolutely nothing to do with because he's an abusive prick - and fuck trucking with that. IF you let that slide, then boom you're the office bitch from there on out.

[rivelino]

@Nemencine

i know what you are getting at. it's dog eat dog, you can't show weakness. you bring up a good point. but the bigger point is, if your boss is a dick, watch out. things can get really fucked up. i've been in that situation before -- where i couldn't trust my boss -- and it's crazy.

i'm a fair boss. i don't allow for infighting or backstabbing or badmouthing in my team. they need to work together, and i am very clear about the internal hierarchy. that's one of the things i do best as a boss. create a positive environment where my team feels "safe" that they won't get screwed over, that it's a fair and honest environment. in fact, it's just like that "children learn what they live" poem. it's so true. creating a healthy, trustworthy environment is crucial to getting the best work out of people. (or you can create a paranoid, fear based environment, but there i feel people burn out much quicker, and try to get out much quicker. it gets really ugly.)

so yeah, in a way, i was assuming that your boss is fair, and maybe in most cases he is not? (dark triad.) that's a good question. then again, dark triad can't be more than 1-5% of people, and even if it's 15-20% of bosses, that still means most bosses are good natured and want their employees to work out.

oh yeah, that's another good point. if your boss specifically chose and hired you, he is a lot more vested in you. i hire my own people, so i really want them to work out, otherwise i look bad. so really, if that's the case -- is it usually? i don't know -- then you two really are on the same side.

[Ensam]

There's a big difference between never saying, "it wasn't my fault", and taking the blame. When it clearly wasn't my fuck up I'll tell my boss what I could have done better given the circumstances that somebody else created.

Example:
Coworker drops the ball on placing a critical order in time to ship for a deadline. I'd say, "Sorry boss, I should have followed up with Sally more than once per week. She told me she had it taken care of but I should have double checked. Now here's how we deal with where we are..."

In the above situation you're letting your boss know that you were already staying on top of the situation in a reasonable way and you give a way you'll prevent it from happening next time now that you know Sally can't be relied on. Then you move right on to fixing the screw up.

Same thing with complaining. Never complain about a fellow coworker directly. Instead approach your boss like you're seeking advice.

Example: "Hey boss, I need to get your input on something. Tim always challenges me during meetings on points I don't think are important and it's difficult for me to stay on task without looking like I'm dismissing his concerns."

Work is a lot like Game. It's mostly about frame and attitude.

[Parlay44]

I don't see any reason to be in charge of anyone unless you're a manager. They(managers) always try to push off responsibility from themselves onto you. I'm skilled labor and I'll do my job and be part of the team and all that good shit but I'm not taking the reigns for anyone. They don't pay me enough to be in charge.

I hate middle management. I'll always be either skilled labor or outright owner of my own business.

[WestCoast]

I will go ahead and outline another long work post where most people won't listen to me.

Riv is speaking from a TEAM perspective rather than an individual perspective. The reason why I know is because his complaint surrounds ownership of the project versus a complaint about simply turning in work that is done incorrectly. Notice in his OP he says there is a person on the team who owns his mistakes, this is an individual stand point.

There is a middle ground to "work game" and here it is.

1. Team. If you are working on a project that is going to be turned into one person who is responsible for said delivery of the completed project, get ready to grind. Why? The reason it is called team is everyone is now responsible for the project.

If you want to get promoted, you need to take complete ownership over everything you can and shovel dog shit "low end work" to checking the work of people who "out rank you". Why? Now that project has a much higher chance of being error free. If you work in a team and you are say the #3 guy on a team of 5 you should be checking the work of #2, #4 and #5. Now this sounds like a lot of work... It's worth it. Why? Over time people will realize when you are working on a team project for one reason or another that project ends up being BETTER than other team projects. That is what a team player is. He does work both up and down, extra work to make sure shit gets done on time.

Lets put this into Riv's perspective. He is actually not mad that people aren't taking ownership, you know why he is pissed? Because the end product sucked. If you are given a team project follow these two cardinal rules #1 do exactly as you are told and #2 document all of the procedures you were expected to do. Why? Now when you turn in your group project to Riv you can look him in the eye and say "I did exactly what was asked of us".

If Riv is a good boss, now he can't be pissed. He will have to be 1) more clear about his directions and 2) he will be happy people actually listened and did exactly as he told them to do.

That is how you operate in a team. Which leads to the quote he posed "I'm sorry and it won't happen again" and "Always admit fault"

I'm sorry = good for a short period. If you join a new team everyone will expect and wont knock you for fucking up a few times in the beginning but it really better not happen consistently. Again if your boss is not a cunt, he will notice the improvement and he will be happy.

The second part "Always admit fault" I 100% disagree. The reason why is you should ONLY take responsibility and fault for a team or individual project you were fully staffed on. People will attempt to tack your name onto project so you need to be crystal clear what project you are and what project you are not responsible for.

Here is the truth if you are staffed on a TEAM project that whole entire project is your fault if you are the lowest level to upper middle on the project. Numbers don't tie? Blame yourself. Formatting fucked up? Blame yourself. Currencies and punctuation fucked up? You fucked up.

Notice I am significantly harsher on team environments because THIS IS HOW YOU GET PROMOTED. A Team project is 100000x more important than an individual project. The reason why is it shows your ability to problem solve.

Individual projects is where "average man" tries to shine. Well here's the truth if it was an important individual person job guess who would do it RIV WOULD DO IT HIMSELF. If you're running a real business and someone important wants work done, you better be certain Riv is not going to let the low end guy touch it which leads to individual work.

2. Individual work. Here all you're doing is "don't fuck it up work". Rarely will you be assigned significant tasks (no team) to do on your own. So these tasks should be done at 90% speed. To make a sports analogy Team projects at work are real game live situations. Individual tasks are practice. They usually involve a lot of reps and anyone can do them over a long duration of time. Here you always resort to the "I'm sorry and it won't happen again" and you'll be fine in the future.

Now to conclude this distinction notice what I'm referring to in a team environment I am suggesting you take on significantly more responsibility. Why? Again pretend you are Riv if you become known as the go to guy on Tasks A, B, C.... Guess who is going to get the first crack at Task D and E? You are. Now if you get to do task D, E and F... Well guess who just got promoted and no longer has to do A, B C, D, E, F?

Thats how you move up in a corporate environment. The only way to GET PAID is to GET RESPONSIBILITY. You get responsibility by SHOWING you deserve it in a TEAM environment.

To end this example of how you get on Riv's good side this is equivalent to people bragging about working at "goldman sachs" or "Morgan Stanley" or "McKinsey". WHO CARES.

Again you want responsibility would you rather be a Vice President at a middle market investment bank making $300K or an Associate at Goldman Sachs making $300K if you are the same age? No brainer. I will take the job with more responsibility every single day of the week. Responsibility implies trust which is again where you make your killing.

Average workers want to avoid responsibility, you should want responsibility because that is where true value and $$ resides.

[Nemencine]

@westcoast.

I see what you are saying...and to me it sounds great in theory, but my real life experience differs from that.

Respectfully, What you wrote about comes across as being too theoretical.

Let me try give you some examples from my own practical experience:

WORKPLACE #1.

I know three women named Helena and Ify and alaknanda...they are three of the most hardworking dogs i have ever met.

They put in gazillion of hours, always willing to help under any conditions, never complained. Always expanding their responsibilities.

They were never promoted.

As nice and sweet as they are...people feel threatened by them.
they outshine a lot of people...their co-workers talked soo much shite behind their backs, it will make you feel sorry for humanity.

Their superiors just takes them for granted. period.

In fact, if something comes up...or something needs to be done; It will simply get automatically assigned to these women, because they are dependable and excellent workers. Further burdening them.

In a rational universe, you will think their superiors will say "helena, ify and alaknanda works too hard...let me give this assignment to Ragnor or Kirill." Not at all...because these women are too good, the works just get assigned to them. with compliments thrown in.

The harder you work, the more work they gave you, the more work they gave you, they more work they expected you to do. It is like a cascade of escalating expectations and demands.

Also, the nasty, backstabbing totally fabricated lies, usually generated by lazy, envious workers(usually other women) who cannot stand the industrious nature of these three women. People will try and start stupid drama with them for no good reason at all. It is bizarre.

My philosophy is to work 10% to 20% above majority of people to get noticed by the Boss...but not to perform so far above average that i get backstabbed and sabotaged by envious co-workers or threatened immediate superiors. "...Good, but not too good..." is my personal philosophy.

I learnt this the hard way at my first job. they gave me nicknames like "superman"..."workaholic"..."showoff"...because i was too damn hardworking...however, the rumours and madeup lies behind my back...and the fact that i was threatening to the rest of my co-workers and one of my Bosses was enough to derail me. Such is life. Henceforth, every single place i have worked, i am "mr. good, but not too good...". If you outshine everybody, you merely paint a target on your back.


WORKPLACE #2.

I used to work at this place where these two lads (philipino and german, randy and heydrich) were insanely hardworking. The boss will come along and ask who wants to volunteer to go into the oven(you gown up with aseptic gear from head to toe, and step into this sterile environment that is brutally hot.) The german always volunteers....then, it became a pattern..... that even when the german doesnt want to volunteer, the boss will insist(with flowing compliments) that he does it. Even when the german protests that why does he always have to do it. They will compliment him and insist that he does it. A pattern has been established. Everybody is out getting fresh air, and he is boiling his balls working inside a fucking oven.

Also, these two lads were threatening to the level II workers above them.
the german and philipino were level Is.

They were just too hardworking. When the company was downsizing, i look in disbelief when they cut off these two hard workers and keep the lazy, good-for-nothing shitlocks that likes to entertain the boss with good stories and jokes. That is what the german gets for all his hardwork. Life is sad.

Correctly assessing the psychological profile of your boss...seeing the kind of person he is and how he makes decision is important. To hell with rationality. Adapt to his stupidity and ego.



WORKPLACE #3.

There were two girls at this place where i used to work. Kate and Agnita. Both hardworking. they were hired at the same time for different bosses. Same qualifications, etc...they were getting promoted at the same rate...then....Kate hit a ceiling....while Agnita kept climbing up. You know why? Because Kate was assigned to a less-than-competent boss...the dumb bitch boss practically cant function without Kate...whenever Kate takes a day off, it is pandemonium. Stupid bitch boss was that incompetent. To her, kate was a godsend....

This she-boss did whatever possible to:
(a)assign more responsibility to Kate(kate was practically doing both of their jobs)

(b)SHE-BOSS made sure that kate doesnt get promoted or transferred, because she doesnt know where she will turn without Kate. I shite you not. This was an open secret. She cant function without kate. We used to joke that she cant go to the bathroom without kate.

Of course, she was nice and respectful and gratuitously flattering to Kate...bringing Kate food and gifts and etc...Heck, she even push for kate to get raises....However, Kate career trajectory was being stymied while Agnita's career rose in quick succession(with increase pay beyond kate). Agnita later became Principal Investigator directing important research project. Kate? still working for this incompetent bitch. This incompetent female Boss uses her office connections and etc to block any promotion and transfer of Kate anywhere else in the company. She put kate on total lockdown. Fort knox.

THESE ARE ACTUAL THINGS I HAVE SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES....

Yes, people may appreciate that you are hardworking and that you always there to cover all the bases, etc, etc..and they may compliment you left and right, etc....however, being too hardworking can results in you developing enemies among your co-workers and immediate superiors if they feel threatened.

#2. It may create an domino effect that the Boss feels soo comfortable with you that s/he automatically overburdened you with more and more jobs. Deleteriously affecting your health, even affecting your performance because you are overstretched.

#3. You may get assigned to the shittiest things to do because you've developed the reputation as a hardworker that gets anything done regardless. This may may lock you down careerwise, not allowing you room to progress because the boss feels that you do certain jobs better than anybody; as such, promoting you will mean that job doesnt get done they way it should. As such, for your Boss, for him to keep looking good infront of his boss. it is better to keep you down there so that your hardwork will make him look good...and it it less headache. You are a victim of your own success.

#4. If you have a lazy boss that gets more and more dependent on you to do her job...she may use her office connections and play politics with your future and lock you down. Completely putting an end to your career advancement because this lazy boss couldnt live without you. To this lazy boss, you made her look good...why would she let you go? She needs you to do whatever she wants and makes her look good.

I notice that these dilemnas tends to happen to ASIANS and other immigrant workers the most.

THERE ARE, OF COURSE, SOLUTIONS TO THESE DILEMNAS...i will write about them later....

But these are the reasons why i found your posts to be a bit too theorectical for my taste...my practical experience indicates being a hardworker, taking responsibility, etc...can be deleterious to your career advancement almost as much as being a lazy, good for nothing doodle-head can be. It depends on how you finesse it. (b)what kind of a boss/bosses you have. this is very critical. (3)how well you understand and navigate office politics.

.

[defguy]

Excellent post Nemencine! Please dont post too much many newbs getting banned these days...
Your post reminds me of the Gevais Principle where psychopaths, not the hardest worker, rises to the top.

http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the...he-office/

Has a very interesting read where he compares the Gevais Principle to the tv show "The Office."
They dont teach you this stuff in school.

[WestCoast]

We can agree to disagree. If you believe my post is to "grind" 24/7/365 you are severely mistaken.

That will be my last work post. I've given enough info for people to read between the lines and figure out how to work game.

If you're gaining responsibilities at average rates (ie promoted every 3 years when it takes 3 years to get promoted etc.) that is not the goal IMHO.

My experience is based on real life execution, having enemies in the office is a good thing - if you're better than them, they will fuck up and you'll take their job.

Making your co-workers emotionally unstable is one of the main keys to getting promoted it shows they are truly worried that there is someone there who can take their spot in a heart beat. They will stress = leads to underperforming.

As a final note, of you're not that guy that everyone doesn't "get" in the office you're not doing it properly. People should be talking smack behind your back saying you don't deserve to be where you are at. That is exactly where you want to be.

It is easier to fool a man than teach him that he has been fooled. Make the idiots believe you are being unfairly promoted.

Again you do all of this when you're ready for more responsibility.

[rivelino]

i think this is a really interesting conversation. truthfully when i wrote the original post, i didn't realize all the other angles and issues and situations at play. also, the thread has gotten complicated because i can't really give specific examples of what i was referring to, and i don't fully understand the situations you are discussing either.

what i did like about westcoast's post #10 was his idea of taking on more and more responsibility. that's key in my mind. ownership. the more i see someone taking ownership of a project, the more i see them owning the problem and solving the problem, the more i trust them, and the more work i give them -- and the more indispensable they become.

and once you become indispensable to your boss, you have leverage, and leverage gets you more power, more status, more money, more real responsibility, and more glory.

[WestCoast]

^ exactly my point.

Then you make minor improvements to your responsibilities over time. Now no one knows how you run the project. Now you're indespensible. Why thank you I'll take that pay raise because I'm no longer replaceable.

Want to make money? Add value to a firm. Fuck the degrees fuck the prestige. Get responsibility = get cash.

It's all a snowball effect. Once you jump the gap, say you're a 25 year old with 30 year old responsibility. Now you walk into the office every day all the older people are scared of you now. Now that they are scared you may take their job they already lost. They stress, they lose their cool. Now you look more mature... Now you take more responsibility... Now the older guys with PHD/MBA from who cares university are scared again... Now you act calm... Etc.

If you don't get the posts in here and you work in a professional environment I don't know what to tell you.

Jump the gap and the snowball begins. Managers get pissed when no one jumps the gap to finish the task. So jump it, you'll be paid for it.

[rivelino]

i like that expression, "jump the gap".

that reminds me, i was working on a list of levels of responsibility for underlings. in reverse order:

1. doing what you're told without mistakes (lowest level)
2. doing what you're told without mistakes, plus noticing new things, adding value apart from just being the person who executes what i tell you to execute
3. running a project with my constant guidance
4. running a project without my guidance, just periodic updates (highest level of performance)

the more an underling can take on entire projects for me, the more it frees me up to do new stuff to impress *my* boss. and like we were saying, if my underling is doing the entire project (#4), then i don't even know the inner workings of how he's running it, which makes him much harder to replace, which gives him leverage, and which gives him status.

also, it makes me like him more, because he makes my life easier.

[painter]

When there's a fuck up at work and people start bitching and placing blame and going through what ifs and all the bullshit I'm usually the one who comes up and says something like: "We can stand around here all day trying to figure out who screwed up but we're wasting more time doing that than it takes to fix the problem."

That's not always the case but a lot of times it really is true, you spend three hours whining about something that takes 45 minutes to fix. I see bosses and owners doing this all the time, they start pulling their hair out or screaming, or calling a meeting to bitch everyone out. It's like they can't move on to actually solving the problem until they explode. Totally ridiculous and a huge waste of time.

You want to be the guy who can turn on a dime from finding a problem to fixing the problem. No excuses, no bitching, no whining, just get to work on this new, unexpected project. People will remember you as a guy who gets shit done and doesn't let anything phase him.

It's about being composed and acting professional, not looking like a whiny bitch who goes into a meltdown when there's a problem. The quicker you react the faster you get shit done.

[WestCoast]

Riv that is exactly the set up I use.

1. Get all tasks written to you in email so you can say "I did exactly as I was told" and you have proof. There is usually miscommunication when you start a job so I get it all in writing.
2. Now that I know the process I fix things that I see recoccuring now you wait for your boss to start asking "what do you think about X", this means he now cares about your opinion.
3. Create a project that solves a recurring issue that bothers your higher up.
4. Hand him new solution, now he's thrilled and has no idea wtf you did to fix the problem.
5. He now gives you more responsibility... He likes you etc.
6. Get paid more.

When I have posted on work/careers on here it has gotten bad reception because I don't do what everyone else does. 1) I don't care if someone has more education than me or seniority, 2) I don't want to do the bare minimum, how do you get paid more by doing the same shit year after year? There is a reason why accountants get paid in such a slow linear fashion "years of service" jobs are shit. 3) I don't "beg for pay raises" I show up late as hell during bonus season and show up dressed nicely so it looks like I am interviewing. If you know with certainty, that you are the most important asset to the firm (for your age/class group) they will not let you quit. Anyone who quits a job and does not get a counter offer is not a good employee. Not once should you walk in and give a 2 week notice and have them say "best of luck to you". If they do? Well you suck at your job. 4) I never ask what people are getting paid or ask about bonus ranges, I simply write down my responsibility level relative to my peers in a spreadsheet.

Basically, most people 99%+, never ask themselves why their boss is pissed. Instead they just get annoyed that they have to do "more work" instead of coming up with a crafty solution to fix the issue permanently.

Finally, if your boss likes you word gets around fast, the smart clients will start calling you directly for simple items but now your boss has more free time and now you have a relationship with his customer base = he needs you even more.

Work politics/execution is a huge passion of mine because you can shave many years off of your working career. No one tells you this in college "businesses don't give a fuck about you, they just want to make money" so that's what you should do, do anything to save your boss time and or make him money. The rest = waste of effort.

Oh well.

[Pacesetter20]

I get where the OP is coming from, but if you have the boss wrapped around your finger this game works well. I've been on the receiving end of these.

[travolta]

This is why working for somebody else is the worst thing you can do with your life. It's worth every second of headache and frustration that it take to become your own boss and not work for another man.

[Veloce]

Agree with WC on all points. I can say, having managed a team over the past few years, the last thing any manager in any field wants is employees that have to be told, down to the most minute detail, what to do.

What every manager and owner WANTS, is someone who's willing to take a few risks in order to take more responsibility and ownership. The "real" owners, the ones that own a company, typically want people to run the damn company for them so they can spend an extra 2 weeks in St. Tropez. It's every business owner's dream. Well, the way that happens is having managers that are hungry to climb the ladder and take on more responsibility. Sure, they'll fuck up and make mistakes. That's part of the deal. If they fuck up too bad and become a liability to the company, they gotta go. But the alternative are the dimwits that stay in the same position for 5-10 years and molder away in mediocrity.

When making mistakes, there will be times when you have to stand in front of the firing squad and take it like a man. I agree with the OP. Stand proud and take the fire. You'll get more respect in the long run.

Take more risks>make more mistakes>advance faster than your peers. Noone learns how to run a company through business school. You learn it by being hungry, ferocious, while doing so WITHOUT ego. Learn as you go. While learning as you go, you get better at learning and dealing with situations on the fly. It's like learning instruments or languages. Once you learn your first instrument, the second one is easier because you already know how scales, intervals, and key signatures work. Once you learn Spanish, Italian is immensely easier because you know how to conjugate verbs. To me, management is the exact same way.

Just don't make the same mistake twice. Don't make them too frequently.

[snoop]

(07-10-2013 03:37 PM)travolta Wrote:  

This is why working for somebody else is the worst thing you can do with your life. It's worth every second of headache and frustration that it take to become your own boss and not work for another man.

I feel the complete opposite of that.

I want no part of the responsibility (or time investment) that comes with ownership. Almost every single person I know who had the own business had to give up a huge chuck of their lives to build something on their own, and in many cases it eventually fails anyway. things fell apart the second they stopped putting in 60+ hours a week , the economy collapsed, etc.

I much prefer to work for someone else who takes all the risk. But I also have a job that pretty much allows me the freedom to come and go as I please and work my schedule as I see fit, so long as I get the work done.

[rivelino]

i like very much what WC and the dude say. to me, this is the correct, positive way to become a better professional, and a better person in life: solving problems, taking chances, making mistakes but learning from them and not making them again, growing through trial and error and experience -- basically just becoming more COMPETENT -- and all of this stems from believing in yourself, believing that you have it in you, believing that it's your destiny to become great.

a lot of the other stuff i read is more about head games and negativity, which yeah, is out there for sure in the world, and especially in the business world, but still, productivity and competence and REAL PERFORMANCE are what business -- and life -- are really about.

[travolta]

(07-10-2013 05:04 PM)snoop Wrote:  

(07-10-2013 03:37 PM)travolta Wrote:  

This is why working for somebody else is the worst thing you can do with your life. It's worth every second of headache and frustration that it take to become your own boss and not work for another man.

I feel the complete opposite of that.

I want no part of the responsibility (or time investment) that comes with ownership. Almost every single person I know who had the own business had to give up a huge chuck of their lives to build something on their own, and in many cases it eventually fails anyway. things fell apart the second they stopped putting in 60+ hours a week , the economy collapsed, etc.

I much prefer to work for someone else who takes all the risk. But I also have a job that pretty much allows me the freedom to come and go as I please and work my schedule as I see fit, so long as I get the work done.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said. A lot of people say they'd like to work for themselves, but honestly most people can't handle it. It's super stressful, there's no stability, and you need to be able to KNOW what has to be done. Most people need structure. I enjoy my freedom, but my business is a 24/7/365 thing. Sometimes i'll be out at a bar at 2am on a Saturday night and will have to log onto my servers so I can adjust something. Shit like this sucks, but it's a necessary evil.

[defguy]

Nemencine and I have been carrying on this conversation via PM and he didnt want to get banned for creating a flame war especially since he is a newbie. But this is too good not to repost here.

My notes: I edited this post so bad grammer is my fault, sorry. Nemacine uses Manager and Boss interchangeabley, but is talking about the same person, ie. his Boss. I excluded our other conversations but the context is basically about BAD bosses, not some machevellian effort to overthrow good bosses who go to bat for our hard work.

Quote:

In my opinion, what rivelino wrote here as point #4. just proves my point. Just read that management hamster-speak for a moment and shakes your head.

".....the more an underling can take on entire projects for me, the more it frees me up to do new stuff to impress *my* boss...and like we were saying, if my underling is doing the entire project, then i don't even know the inner workings of how he's running it, which makes him much harder to replace, which gives him leverage, and which gives him status....also, it makes me like him more, because he makes my life easier...."

CAVEAT: rivelino can be a good boss. i dont know him personally. But his post highlights perfectly one of the problems i was talking about:

That was one of the points i was making before in this long post. check my point #3 and #4.

Here is an excerpts from #3

"......As such, for your Boss, for him to keep looking good infront of his boss. it is better to keep you down there so that your hardwork will make him look good....."

And excerpts from point #4..."......If you have a lazy boss that gets more and more dependent on you to do her job...she may use her office connections and play politics with your future and lock you down. Completely putting an end to your career advancement because this lazy boss couldnt live without you. To this lazy boss, you made her look good...why would she let you go? She needs you to do whatever she wants and makes her look good. ....".

You honestly think your Boss gives you all the credit when sitting in front of his Boss talking about the project(in your absence?)? Why would he do something that stupid?! Most likely not! if you are lucky, maybe a little credit.

And most of the time, he is not doing any "new stuff", he is busy playing fantasy football or checking facebook updates. While you worked your arse off.

Here is a genius idea: How about my Boss does his work, and i do mine? seems like a fair deal, no? Especially, since i am not being paid his salary.

Oh, rivelino is correct that you will get status...You have "status" means you get a lot of compliments from him above and beyond other workers...that is the extent of your "status" currency!

He is also correct that he will like you more. why wont he? you are doing his job for free! You are his beta-bitch!

He is also correct you will be harder to replace. You are hard to "replace" means your Boss wont want you getting transferred or promoted. That is the translation. i mean, why would he? What logic is in that? (i covered this while talking about Kate in workplace #3.).

CAVEAT: I DONT know if rivelino is a bad boss or good boss. I have faith that he is a good boss and I am not trying to single him out. But his statements dovetail perfectly with my concerns about "being too super-hardworking" and its consequences.

The only and important question is: How does this help you?

It doesnt really.

Leverage? what leverage? To ask for more vacation time? work less? hahahaha. Not at all. The fact that you are a hardworker means you get to use less vacation time and get more work; so that your boss can then turn around and use it to impress his boss some more. Of course, your boss is going to like you!

The only positives to this are:
#1. In office drama, your Boss will more likely take your side.
#2. He will ask for more raise for you.
#3. If they are laying people off, he will fight to keep you. he needs you to do his work, remember?

IF I AM WORKING FOR A BAD BOSS, how will i handle him? How will i play this game? The answer: THREE STEPS.

step #1: I will work hard but not too hard...i dont want too many multiple targets on my back due to collective jealousy...while performing slightly better than everybody else to get noticed, but not too superlatively better than everybody else to get hated by everybody. I will start surveying the layout of the land. I will then see who my Boss has as enemies and friends are. His manager that likes him, the one that doesnt. Look for his weaknesses....I will know who his spies are, the arse kissers, etc. I will start being friendly/networking with as much people as possible. I will make myself visible. You will make some enemies. It is part of the game.

My main question in step #1 is this: Which one of my managers bosses can promote me over him? and/or set me up with my own project management if they recognize my talents? Is there even a room for advancement at all?

Dont move to step #2 without a clear answer to these questions.

If the answer is a clear yes(that is, an aggressively growing company, etc)

Then step #2: I will then step on the jet engine. i will aggressively expand my responsibilities. Making sure both his bosses (the ones that like him and the ones that doesnt like him) knows that i am the one that does his job while praising my manager about his delegating abilities. I will talk about what a great delegator my boss is. While making sure my contributions goes well noticed behind his back. If my boss goes on a vacation or was sick--this will be my moment to truly shine--my taking over the project in his absence will clearly showcase to his boss that i have what it takes and also that my boss is expendable. I will make sure they(my manager's bosses) knows it. Especially, the ones that doesnt like him.

And When my boss comes back from vacation, i will make him feel truly missed.(which of course, it isnt the case at all! I couldnt give a shite about him. I care only about my own career here.)

If i havent being promoted to manage my own project after all this, or if my own personal timetable for getting a promotion/raise is running out, i will go to contingency plan: step #3.

STEP #3: I will use my increased responsibilities to booster my resume/cv and apply for a senior position to my managers job somewhere else. Afterall, i am already doing his job here already. I am going next level up. An aggressive 6 months worth of job interviews should allow me to get a job senior to my boss' at a different firm. Preferably at another firm that is aggressively growing itself.

Then step #4: REPEAT STEP 1 through 3 all over again at this new firm. Wash, Rinse, and Repeat.

One thing i am certainly not going to do is play a sucker's game where i "bridge the gap"...or trying to intimidate older PhD/MBA etc. I need their connections to get promoted to my boss' level or to bypass my boss' position.

These are the things i learn through trial and error; through opening my eyes and hears and see how people act, not just what they say. Through dealing with some heavy duty backstabbing, manipulative bitches.

Of course, if i am in a management position, i will give my underlings SOME job responsibilities..and preach rivelino's and westcoast's gospel. chapter and verse. What i preach and what i do are two completely different things. I will also give my underlings enough responsibilities, but not an INCH MORE...One of them could be just like me, why would i want him or her to learn my job equally or better than me? It makes no sense to me at all. I wont germinate an opportunity for that ambitious underlings to derail me. I MUST ACQUIRE and MAINTAIN POWER. At the workplace, i only care about myself. Everybody else is expendable.

this is why i found westcoast posts on the issue to be a bit too theorectical for my taste. I respect westcoast on many things...and the world of finance may be different. i dont know. But his statements doesnt match up with my own harsh realities. He seems to be skipping step 1 and starting at step#2.