[RouteBackwards]

When I was about 17 - 18 and read bits and pieces of game materials, there were two trains of thought as I recall:

Mystery Method

and

Neuro-Linguistic Processing (NLP)

I kind of focused on bettering my lifestyle at that point more than focusing on either or, but in the end I stuck with the theoretical perspectives of Mystery Method and started to move to pick up artists like Juggler and Chris Rex style of game. However I remember reading a lot of material relating to NLP and now a days I rarely hear anyone in the community who really cares about NLP or even knows what it is.

Did it turn out to be a sham or something that based it's effectiveness off of a self fulfilling prophecy?

As someone who's read a lot of game material I'm just curious what happened to one of the leading game systems. (A forum search did not really yield much in the way of NLP, hopefully I'm not missing something).

[tenderman100]

Well, it's not really a system, NLP is really an aspect of seduction. It's the principle by which you say things that are designed to lead to to the bang, rather than to block it.

For example, DHV is an important part of seduction. You can demonstrate that in a number of ways -- body language, dress, presenting yourself in the company of other women so as to confirm your validation as desirable partner to another woman. And what you say, and the tone in which you say it, is part of that.

Here's an example. Some time ago, when I was is grad school, I happened to be in this bar with a woman from the neighborhood and I always thought how great it would be to fuck her. We had known each other casually, nothing special, and we were sitting together and she was telling me about some difficult she had gotten herself into. I can't remember know what is was, but I remember exactly what I said to her to this day.

"Life is full of hazards, isn't it?'

I will never forget the look on her face at that moment. Once I had said that -- a kind of unsympathetic, quasi-dismissive, remark -- she looked at me in that way you can tell. "Yes, you are worth fucking." And we did, that night.

Why did that work? Typically, the beta response would be to commiserate, to try and make the babe feel better. The right response is to recognize what she had said, and express dominance and self-assuredness. It's like catnip to women.

[Teedub]

(01-23-2013 01:04 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

Here's an example. Some time ago, when I was is grad school, I happened to be in this bar with a woman from the neighborhood and I always thought how great it would be to fuck her. We had known each other casually, nothing special, and we were sitting together and she was telling me about some difficult she had gotten herself into. I can't remember know what is was, but I remember exactly what I said to her to this day.

"Life is full of hazards, isn't it?'

I will never forget the look on her face at that moment. Once I had said that -- a kind of unsympathetic, quasi-dismissive, remark -- she looked at me in that way you can tell. "Yes, you are worth fucking." And we did, that night.

Why did that work? Typically, the beta response would be to commiserate, to try and make the babe feel better. The right response is to recognize what she had said, and express dominance and self-assuredness. It's like catnip to women.

That's a great story, and one I'm going to share with people when they ask me what 'alpha' is or insist being 'alpha' is being a full-on dickhead. It isn't. It's about being in control.

[WestIndianArchie]

In the early days of internet seduction forums, a lot of guys were not reporting results with NLP. (especially when people think of NLP as rich description as opposed to Weasel Words)

It's probably because the main proponent of NLP, Ross Jeffries, was
1) older than most guys in the scene (40's vs 20s)
2) wasn't actively going to bars and dance clubs. (he was in his 40's, so downtown LA/SF was not his scene)
3) not as good as or as prolific as Mystery and Style when it came to writing about his exploits. (also because he was in his 40's, and probably had better things to do)

When Erich and Neil were regularly posting to the forums, they were really detailed in what they said and did to bang chicks (I don't even think this forum has "field reports")- and they dropped enough jewels and practical steps that anyone reading what they were doing could go out and do similar things. I know I got a few bangs off of a few of their tips. I still credit my first ONS Anal to the 3's and 7's trick.

But there were no credible NLP champions meeting chicks in bars and mesmerizing the panties off of them.

Whether or not NLP actually does what it claims to do, is an entirely different question. NLP fits into that weird area of psychology, pop-psychology, and hokum.

I kinda miss the old pick up days, because most of the forums and blogs were about actual tips on what to say and what to do.

The scene used to be about recipes, not about food science.

I was reading some blog yesterday about a guy who graded himself on his game skills, intermediate in approaching but advanced in theory...wtf?

WIA

[RouteBackwards]

(01-23-2013 01:45 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

In the early days of internet seduction forums, a lot of guys were not reporting results with NLP. (especially when people think of NLP as rich description as opposed to Weasel Words)

It's probably because the main proponent of NLP, Ross Jeffries, was
1) older than most guys in the scene (40's vs 20s)
2) wasn't actively going to bars and dance clubs. (he was in his 40's, so downtown LA/SF was not his scene)
3) not as good as or as prolific as Mystery and Style when it came to writing about his exploits. (also because he was in his 40's, and probably had better things to do)

When Erich and Neil were regularly posting to the forums, they were really detailed in what they said and did to bang chicks (I don't even think this forum has "field reports")- and they dropped enough jewels and practical steps that anyone reading what they were doing could go out and do similar things. I know I got a few bangs off of a few of their tips. I still credit my first ONS Anal to the 3's and 7's trick.

But there were no credible NLP champions meeting chicks in bars and mesmerizing the panties off of them.

Whether or not NLP actually does what it claims to do, is an entirely different question. NLP fits into that weird area of psychology, pop-psychology, and hokum.

I kinda miss the old pick up days, because most of the forums and blogs were about actual tips on what to say and what to do.

The scene used to be about recipes, not about food science.

I was reading some blog yesterday about a guy who graded himself on his game skills, intermediate in approaching but advanced in theory...wtf?

WIA

That last part is hilarious.

I'm all for knowing a bit of game and using it when needed, but being a relatively active gentleman in other facets of your life.

But intermediate in approaching but advanced in theory?

That's ridiculous.

Also excellent post, answered most of my questions. Appreciate you taking your time to write that sir.

[Vicious]

It's not helpful to compare NLP with Mystery method. The former was primarily a tool for behavior therapy that existed a decade earlier than mystery method. Ross Jeffries who was the foremost practitioner of NLP in Speed Seduction was on the scene way before Mystery shoot into the spotlight.

RJ did have a very active mailing list with discussions, field report and general networking. It was however private which ultimately meant that the PUA scene picked up a majority of new blood due to sheer visibility.

[Vicious]

It's not helpful to compare NLP with Mystery method. The former was primarily a tool for behavior therapy that existed a decade earlier than mystery method. Ross Jeffries who was the foremost practitioner of NLP in Speed Seduction was on the scene way before Mystery shoot into the spotlight.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-23-2013 03:01 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

It's not helpful to compare NLP with Mystery method. The former was primarily a tool for behavior therapy that existed a decade earlier than mystery method. Ross Jeffries who was the foremost practitioner of NLP in Speed Seduction was on the scene way before Mystery shoot into the spotlight.

RJ did have a very active mailing list with discussions, field report and general networking. It was however private which ultimately meant that the PUA scene picked up a majority of new blood due to sheer visibility.

Ross's antics during the rise of MM made him sound like your weird ass uncle. The only other person that I can think of as worse, was that Crazy Fox dude.

I never met anyone or saw anyone that got NLP to work. Any experience?

WIA

[RouteBackwards]

(01-23-2013 03:14 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

I never met anyone or saw anyone that got NLP to work. Any experience?

It seemed like the only people who had successes with NLP were the gentlemen who sold NLP related products.

I too am curious if anyone did get success with NLP.

[Ovid]

I think NaughtyNomad said somewhere that he uses NLP techniques sometimes.

If it works, I can envision it being a useful tool in the toolbox, but I think Mystery Method/game seems more versatile. Game is more about your vibe and being a genuinely high-value man, whereas NLP always seemed like using carefully chosen words to weave a spell around a chick by tricking her brain. I can never remember reading anything substantial about how to apply NLP in the field to consistently get better results.

[Teedub]

I think NLP stuff seems appealing because it seems 'easy', like a magic formula that charms any woman. That's how Neil Strauss wrote about it anyway, he almost mystified RJ to the point of him seeming to have almost supernatural control of women's emotions etc. I saw RJ on an episode of Louis Theroux (British documentary maker, pretty awesome) about hypnosis. It covered a subset of hypnosis called "speed seduction" (this was in like 1997 so way before The Game) and I was mystified by how impressive it seemed. I thought he was 'creepy' though, and that he looked like a dirty old man. But I was 14 years old or something when I came across the show, so I didn't know shit.

[Vicious]

(01-23-2013 03:14 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Ross's antics during the rise of MM made him sound like your weird ass uncle. The only other person that I can think of as worse, was that Crazy Fox dude.

What antics would that be? Remember that the book The Game is a fictionalized account.

I've had plenty of success with NLP in game and otherwise (I got into the game in 1999). The question of whether NLP works or not is wrongfully stated, while there's elements of fluff and psuedoscience in there most of it is just conversationally applied hypnosis and behavioural psychology.

I have seen the faces of women lighting up as I've run certain SS patterns on them and anchored it. Stacking that anchorn and firing at the right moments has gotten me laid with ease and passion.

NLP has been largely discredited as a psuedoscience in general by the psychological community. Of course, game is held in the same contempt by these bodies so there you go. Maybe NLP and game is all placebos that we're clinging to. Personally, who knows? Who cares? Works for me!

However, NLP is incredibly dense compared to a lot of the more accessible and pragmatic material out there today. There is little point in putting the effort into NLP unless you have a large interest in building doing long-term structures (for relationships mostly) or you need heavy work on your inner game. And even then the reward can seem diminutive to what you would have achieved if you got into contemporary game and put your ass in the field.

[Vicious]

(01-23-2013 03:49 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

I think NLP stuff seems appealing because it seems 'easy', like a magic formula that charms any woman.

It's anything but.

[the virgin chronicles]

I initially dismissed it as psuedoscience / complete nonsense, but Krauser talks about it in his book and his blog, and he's a very rational dude. So right now my understanding of it is that you're just describing things in very sensual / emotional ways to get the girls gears turning.

That's what Krauser is doing when he talks about NLP, anyhow.

(01-23-2013 05:17 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

snip

Do you have any resources you'd recommend for someone who's interested in applying NLP without having to read a lot of flowery bullshit? Where can I read about what 'anchoring' and 'fractionating' and all the other terms mean?

Personally I've watched Ross Jeffries' speed seduction and found it totally disorganized. He's basically rambling in front of a crowd and will slowly tell you a single routine over the course of a ten minute lecture without writing it down or explaining why it works. He never gives proper definitions either.

Anything better than Ross Jeffries shit?

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-23-2013 05:17 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

What antics would that be? Remember that the book The Game is a fictionalized account.

Here's an excerpt,
_________________________________________________________
"Oedipus Writes:

> Re: the original SS-list incident. It is astonishing
> how long this flamewar on this topic has been going
> on now. But the transcript on my page, and RJ's
> replies here and elsewhere says it all, so I have nothing
> more to add really. Everyone can draw their own
> conclusions.

> I would like to put all this behind us. I know we could
> have all handled it better at the time.

Bingo! Nobody disagrees with that. I've stated numerous times that
EVERYBODY involved could have dealt with the situation better, you
included. What I take issue with is this idea that ross and riker are
somehow "sadistically" attacking all their customers, or that that ross
and riker carry all the blame and were picking on a poor innocent just
for the fun of it.

<-------I'm sure Ross loves his customers. I'm fond of mine too. I
don't think that's in question. The METHOD is what it's SUPPOSED to be
about. The list should be considered seperate from the products. Were
they assholes? I don't care, because I don't subscribe!

That's bullshit. You were rude and demanding and they were rude and
insulting in return. Sure they could have taken the high ground and set
an example for you by responding to your behavior in a less reactionary
and rude way, but I can absolutely see how and why they reacted as they
did. "

____________________________________________

I'm pretty sure this was all before the Game, but IIRC, Ross had a very contentious relationship with his customers and soured a lot of people who might have bought in.

If you want to dig deep into it, you can go to google groups and look up alt.seduction.fast (god what an awful interface)

WIA

[Vicious]

WestIndianArchie:

I can't make anything out of that. It's lacking context.

(01-23-2013 05:28 PM)the virgin chronicles Wrote:  

Anything better than Ross Jeffries shit?

No. You get what you pay for and if you paid for one of his course you'd get his handbook, workbook, quick reference sheet, flash cards etc

But if you didn't have the patience to go through some of his course vids/recordings then I don't think it's for you. NLP/SS requires an effort.

[NoBalls]

NLP didn't start off as a pickup tool. It was the science of how language affects the brain. Some people like Ross Jeffories thought it would come in handy for picking up chicks.

NLP is not very big for pickup anymore but it's still huge out there. Anthony Robbins was one of the original NLP guys and he is still huge. Last I heard he was filling up stadiums giving his talks. He also wrote a bunch of books that sold very well to the general public. He doesn't call his stuff NLP any more but I read one of his books before and it was definitely had a ton of NLP concepts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Robbins

I started reading this book years ago about NLP but it was too boring so I only made it like a quarter of the way through. But it was definitely comprehensive. If someone is interested in NLP and wants to dig deep, this is a good place to start.
User's Manual For the Brain

[xsplat]

I haven't studied NLP but I'm aware of some of the basic principles.

I have studied poetry writing, and I see it as fundamentally the same. When you put string words together you paint an emotional picture in peoples minds and bring in all sorts of associations. The sounds of the words matters, rhyme, rhythm, alliteration. When you get deep into the subject you learn about the limits of language itself. It's a very interesting hobby.

I use words as part of seduction in a hypnotic and suggestive fashion, and mix into it theories about dominance and attraction. For instance when we enter my apartment I'll say "Now we're in our happy place again". Or instead of admitting that I've been missing the girl, I'll say "I can see you've been missing me, haven't you?" Instead of saying that I've been too infatuated to sleep well I'll show a little underbelly with "Come on the bed. I need your smell so that I can sleep".

The habits of writing and even those old habits from writing poetry come out naturally in how the words are arranged. Was "come on the bed" NLP, or just an accidental word choice?

I think people don't study NLP because it's not for everyone. You need years of study and practice with being verbal, and then your mind will make up stuff on the fly that carries with it several connotations and associations.

Hypnosis and bringing together associations can be a very powerful tool. Helps you to set the moods and to make her internalize those moods and to associate them with you.

[soup]

(01-23-2013 05:17 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(01-23-2013 03:14 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Ross's antics during the rise of MM made him sound like your weird ass uncle. The only other person that I can think of as worse, was that Crazy Fox dude.

Maybe NLP and game is all placebos that we're clinging to. Personally, who knows? Who cares? Works for me!

It depends on how you define game. To me game is anything you do that gets you laid. In this sense, there is no placebo.

[XXL]

(01-23-2013 12:21 PM)RouteBackwards Wrote:  

As someone who's read a lot of game material I'm just curious what happened to one of the leading game systems.

Those leading game systems were invented by nerds who had to come up with some technology to say hi to girls. With time those systems got old and irrelevant cause most pickup leaders have grown up and turned into more freestyle/natural style. At least the most successful ones.

[tenderman100]

(01-24-2013 03:04 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

I use words as part of seduction in a hypnotic and suggestive fashion, and mix into it theories about dominance and attraction. For instance when we enter my apartment I'll say "Now we're in our happy place again". Or instead of admitting that I've been missing the girl, I'll say "I can see you've been missing me, haven't you?" Instead of saying that I've been too infatuated to sleep well I'll show a little underbelly with "Come on the bed. I need your smell so that I can sleep".

Exactly.

Language is a tool for seduction and establishing dominance and confidence. It is a tool to get you the bang and then to keep the banging going. It's not the only tool, or even necessarily the most important tool, but it is an essential tool.

It's about what I would call "persona." The tools you need to bring to the table are

--dress
--physical appearance (by that I mean not Brad Pitt handsome -- though that can help -- but rather the projection of physical strength and power)
--body language (a subset of physical appearance)
--social actions (how you act outside the bedroom)
--language...

and finally, sexual ability (which includes first time kino escalation and then, on repeat bang occasions, the ability to bring it big).

You can be stronger is some areas, and weaker in others, but you absolutely have to be able to use all of these tools to get the job done.

All these tools are in service of getting the woman to view you as intriguing, stimulating, desirable.

In the end, your persona is the "package." You are marketing yourself sexually. As a man, you have to act consciously, deliberately using these tools.

Of course, in contrast, a woman has to do very little marketing to get a man to fuck her. That's because she has a pussy. Having a pussy makes most women intellectually lazy when it comes to understanding why she is doing what she is doing. This intellectual laziness is fuel to the hamster's non-stop running.

[dirtypurist]

Many NLP techniques have been repackaged into "coaching" and "life coaching". Rebranded.

[Giovonny]

NLP is alive and well. I use it everyday. Not only in talking to girls but in talking to everybody.

They way you talk, the words you use, your tone, your volume, etc,

It's all part of how people perceive you.

[littleG]

(01-24-2013 03:04 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

The habits of writing and even those old habits from writing poetry come out naturally in how the words are arranged. Was "come on the bed" NLP, or just an accidental word choice?

I think people don't study NLP because it's not for everyone. You need years of study and practice with being verbal, and then your mind will make up stuff on the fly that carries with it several connotations and associations.

Hypnosis and bringing together associations can be a very powerful tool. Helps you to set the moods and to make her internalize those moods and to associate them with you.

This is the essence of my game.

[littleG]

(01-25-2013 12:27 AM)dirtypurist Wrote:  

Many NLP techniques have been repackaged into "coaching" and "life coaching". Rebranded.

Right. After studying a bit of NLP It's a bit disconcerting to see that "achieving success" has become so mainstream. It's strange to me because most of the NLP concepts I learned that people pay lip-service to are simply NLP techniques that have been repackaged and rebranded into principles of success. I happened to be in a strip club one evening and I had an enlightening conversation with a life-coach who told me that his view of NLP was that it was simply "higher form of communication" I'm inclined to agree with that assessment, but its still weird to see many of the concepts that were once previously hidden now being so openly discussed.

-PJ