[Samseau]

What should a young lawyer do in order to maximize his money, poon, and future early retirement? I want the leisure to write philosophy someday.

And no, I'm not afraid of losing a few years to Biglaw.

[thegmanifesto]

Are you in law school?

[Samseau]

Been accepted to BU and BC, ranked #20 and #26, respectively. Both seem to offer good employment prospects. I like BU a bit more than BC right now, because it is in the heart of Boston.

[UgSlayer]

That's a tough one. I'm not a lawyer, but I have a couple of lawyer friends. If you really want to be a top dog, working 70 hour week is going to be the norm depending on what type of law you study and what type of firm you work for.

The bad news is, if you want to be the best, you'll work away your 20's and early 30's. The good news is, if you play your cards right, you'll have enough power and money that you really won't have to rely on game all that much.

I also have a lawyer friend who is a public defender, works normal hours, but obviously doesn't get paid as much as someone who opens his own practice. He still gets laid like a champ, though.

[Pepini]

Go to the university with the best employment prospects, don´t pay attention to the carisma, reputation, etc. The sole criteria should be employment prospects. If you finish in a good university you will have the privilege of choosing which job you want. Instead of the job choosing you.

Lawyers work a lot and get paid a lot. In the begining less (on the paid part) cause you need to be on some type of organisation for clients to know you exist, putting a sign on the door won´t help.

If you decide to go solo in the begining I advise choosing a well paid boring area that nobody else wants to make (Tax law, bankrupcy law), and continue doing things you like on the side. Be prepared to smile a lot. And shake everybody hand when you enter a room.

The area of law that gives top money is Corporate law, and not criminal law, real estate used to be good. Crime doesn´t pay for the criminal and his lawyer. The only way to earn money with criminal law is having drug dealers has clients. The problem is that first you know where the money comes from. Second once you get in you don´t get out. It´s not uncommon to see mafia lawyers getting arrested or killed. When you speak on the phone with your client it might be taped by the police, the same goes with your email.

Mergings, Agressive takeovers, stock markets, company social contracts, peaceful buying and selling of companies is where you get more money, but this areas are normally confined to top firms who have the structure to deal with top companies. And if you work on those firms you´re a slave and basically your job will be your life. It´s a 24/hour job. You can get a call at 02:am to be in the office in 30 minutes. The competition between coleagues is fearceful. Stealing clients from that firm when you decide to leave is unethical cof, cof,cof.

Most of lawyers chicks have issues, they are in general ambitious bitches with they´re brains screwed up. Classy sluts. Clients from divorces are easy preys, but family law is in my opinion better played by women. Even if you can make tons of cash with divorces I wouldn´t recommend it.

A lawyer is somebody who´s use to deal with shit. You deal with the worst of people. The backstabbings, the greed, etc. You need to have a large baggage to take away a home from a pregnant women if you need to do so. Lawyers don´t pursue justice. They pursue the interest of your client even if it´s injust. If you don´t, others will. You have no safety net. If you get sick, break a leg or whatever clients will not wait for you. They will look somebody else. Your profession is to screw who your clients wishes to do so. You learn how to screw other people from 100 ways posible. The only one you never screw is your client. The trust of your client is like virginity, once you´ve lost it you will never gain it back. Better be prepared to start working happy and leave angry. Also be bombed by family and friends with questions and not be able to charge them. You also get a new status. Saying you´re a lawyer in many situations will open doors for you. You know better than anybody else what you can do and not do. And better what other people can do to you.
You will quickly learn that everything is negotiable.

If one day you realise that a lawyer has paper and pencils with 40 year old age, because they might need them to make a 40 year old contract, don´t be surprised.

To be a good lawyer you can´t think of right or wrong. If you do your not a good lawyer. Clients don´t want moral lessons, they want to know how can they make legally, things that are ilegal. Clients lie and lie. Even though you´re on their side, they will omit valuable information.

If you want justice be a judge. Don´t be a prosecutor they are as bad if not worst as lawyers.

Law changes everyday. You have to be continuously updated. New rulings, new reforms, etc, etc. It´s like a giant ocean were you swimn and swimn, but never reach the shore.

You can do some pro bono to ease up the guilt, but you will end up with old ladies wanting to do civil actions against insurance companies for pennies.

Law is not a science, it´s an art.

Voltaire said: I wish I would have been a lawyer it´s the best job in the world. He was right.

[kingkong]

I get the strong impression that law school is pretty much a racket.

http://www.calicocat.com/2004/08/law-sch...g-lie.html
http://www.halfsigma.com/2006/06/wall_street_jou_1.html

I know four people who went to good law schools and now have nothing to do with law, and never profited from it. It was a big waste of their time and money as best I can tell. I only know a couple lawyers who have lucrative jobs, and I don't think they even like it.

Law school only makes sense if you're smart enough to graduate in the top third from a top five school. And if you're smart enough to do that, you're smart enough to do lots of other lucrative things that don't suck as much as working at a large law firm.

Evidence is strong that professional services such as law will be in a bear market for years. There is huge overcapacity built up in boom times. The big profits are gone and not coming back.

I would advise you don't go to law school and figure something else out.

[Peoloom]

I would suggest that you think very, very long and hard about exactly why you want to go to law school. Employment stats for the T14 have been abysmal these past two years, and there's no sign that BigLaw hiring will ever return to its pre-crash levels. If you'll be going into debt to attend law school, I'd advise against going anywhere but a T14.

[Pepini]

Unless your have some relative connected to law willing to give you a job, going to a second rate university to get a law degree will be a complete waste of time and money. But if that´s what you wanna do, not for your parents, girlfriend or a romantic notion of being a lawyer, go for it, even if it doesn´t seem logic to others.

[hydrogonian]

I really examined the law field for a possible career.

This is because I think that I would be good at it, and even enjoy certain aspects of it.

I decided against it for lifestyle as well as employment opportunity : risk reasons.

If you don't work in BigLaw, and can even get a job, then the average salary is between $40 and $60K. You can earn a bit more with some very hard earned skill building (ie: litigation), or working your way up in a very political public bureaucracy. Then there is a huge gap up to the average Biglaw salary. Be aware that you WILL be forced out of a Biglaw firm if they don't want you as a partner. This could be after years and years of putting in inhuman hours for them. Then what?

Be sure you know what your getting yourself into.

I'd at least make sure you have a very wide and deep understanding of the opportunities in the field, and make sure you have a viable escape plan from the legal employment market (like a law services business plan), before you commit.

If you want to maximize your chances of doing what you say you want to do, then work on creating "means of production" / property that you can leverage to make money (real estate, machinery, marketing knowledge, intellectual property, etc.). In other words, create or buy the means to offer a product that people will buy. As long as you are offering services, you will always be trading time for money.

[Samseau]

Hey fellas, thanks for the responses. Pepini your shit is money.

I have already heard the warnings about law school (see the SA dorks), and I have tried my best to accommodate for them by doing well on my LSAT (168, 96%) and getting into a school with good employment prospects. Last week, I just went to an open house at Boston College (both of Massachusetts' senators went there for law school), and talked with quite a few of their 3L's who were lined up with 160K jobs. They weren't common, but they weren't uncommon either. The fact is, Biglaw has a high turnover rate; young lawyers always have a chance. The ones who acquired these jobs seemed to have networked extensively for them, however. Not a problem; my cold approach game is super tight compared to most of the dorks at law school.

Additionally, there is a backup plan now for law school students: http://www.law.stanford.edu/program/tuition/assistance/
The LARP forgives all federal debts should a student pursue a public career. So, if I can't become the high-flyer lawyer, I can always settle with a comfort existence for a decade or whatever. Worse things have happened to better people.

I understand that law school has no guarantees. But name something in life that does? For every man who has succeeded, there are three who have failed. I'm sure our resident G has seen many fail where he has succeeded. That I may fail in law school still does not change the fact that law school is still my best opportunity for success.


I was hoping you guys might be able to give any tips on specific situations for a lawyer or young law student. For example:

- How to introduce yourself to others when the question of "What do you do?" comes up, whether it's with men or ladies.
- What kind of dress attire should I have, considering I'm living on less than 15K for the next few years? I lift regularly and have a decent build. 5'8''. Handsome compared to many.
- If I go into biglaw, what should I do after I get out of biglaw? (Since there's almost no way I'd get partner)
- Whether I should stay in Boston, or try for a NY job.
- Anything else you've seen successful lawyers do?

Quote:

I also have a lawyer friend who is a public defender, works normal hours, but obviously doesn't get paid as much as someone who opens his own practice. He still gets laid like a champ, though.

Mind telling me how he ran his game?




I'd like to be a G just as much as the next guy. As long as I try my best, I'll be satisfied with the results.

[thegmanifesto]

Samseau,

My most successful friend went to law school. Went to Stanford, worked big law two years, M & A's, then left, started a leveraged buyout fund and took over a company of 150 people. I think it is now 400 employees. Killed it.

He is also the smartest guy I know.

Come to think of it, a good deal of my friends went to law school.

Most are married.

[El Viajero]

(03-29-2010 09:06 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

I have already heard the warnings about law school (see the SA dorks), and I have tried my best to accommodate for them by doing well on my LSAT (168, 96%) and getting into a school with good employment prospects.

Nuts I was just about to link you the SA thread. What's your username there?

[Samseau]

(03-29-2010 09:51 PM)jmb Wrote:  

(03-29-2010 09:06 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

I have already heard the warnings about law school (see the SA dorks), and I have tried my best to accommodate for them by doing well on my LSAT (168, 96%) and getting into a school with good employment prospects.

Nuts I was just about to link you the SA thread. What's your username there?

For.lorn

[Samseau]

(03-29-2010 09:25 PM)chrisss Wrote:  

(03-29-2010 03:07 PM)kingkong Wrote:  

Law school only makes sense if you're smart enough to graduate in the top third from a top five school. And if you're smart enough to do that, you're smart enough to do lots of other lucrative things that don't suck as much as working at a large law firm.

Well put. I recommend reading "The Firm" for everyone interested in the subject. Don't mind the movie with Tom Cruise which was very mediocre, but the book was real class. The book defines what it means putting in 70+ hours and not having a life. Not being able to fuck your girl when you get home cause you're so worn out. Would this be what It would want to devote my 20's and early 30's to get to the point where I have no life besides my job? I'll pass. There's so many more interesting shit you can do with your life as regard to your career if you really are ambitious enough to work your ass off that much. Why make it boring. You live only once.

I would love to know what these interesting things are, man, because I have never seen any of it. Pain and drudgery has been my norm.

[hydrogonian]

(03-29-2010 09:06 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

I understand that law school has no guarantees. But name something in life that does? For every man who has succeeded, there are three who have failed. I'm sure our resident G has seen many fail where he has succeeded. That I may fail in law school still does not change the fact that law school is still my best opportunity for success.

You seem pretty set on your decision, and so I offer a sincere congratulations.

However, I want to comment on your above quote. There is a lot of depth and truth to it. And in that vein, I offer the following:

One of the first rules of life is to only play "Winning" Games.

That is, play games where you have a better chance of winning then losing. This holds true for love, work / money, crime, politics, friendship and everything else. Whether you rig the game, make the game, or become the best at it (the highest risk).

All other games are for suckers and losers. Unless you have a very good reason to believe that you can out-compete your competition, or otherwise rig the game in your favor, don't play. Find a game that provides you with a better chance of winning.

Now, you may feel that you can win in the legal arena. Then, by all means, go for it. But after a lot of soul searching, if you see your chances of success being only one in four as stated above, or a similarly low chance, then pursuing this path would be foolishly reckless and likely done out of hubris only.

So, look closely. There are other games out there that can give you what you want (a good and free lifestyle), perhaps with less risk. However, if law remains your calling and a game that you can see yourself winning, then you would be doing yourself a disservice not to pursue it.

[lilactag]

WOW, I had planned to move to Singapore since i was in High School, this year I almost landed a perfect job there but then fell out.
I am still trying, though. The best thing is how you put it, find a place where you will be hugely appreciated and remunerated, because you will naturally, by default, outsmart the local competition, while doing what you love and do best.

I think in the US, Law or Medicine carries a long tradition of high social status, but for me those careers always seemed too normal and not special, but to each their own.

Think of a career as if fits your life's philosophy, if you choose one just because of money or status, then search your path accordingly, most of the times, these paths are for "sprint runners".
If you are like me, one who thinks as a long-distance runner, then you will make sure to choose a path which will provide your required success, maybe incrementally during the whole period of your life, meaning you are not going to peak in your 20s but you will enjoy life and personal (material) satisfaction for the whole game of life.

[Samseau]

Knew a guy who went to Singapore. He didn't have a job lined up properly. Came back in a year. Make sure you guys know what you are doing.

[Jim Kirk]

Samseau - My brother went to BU Law - I went to Law School in NYC - I take it you do not live in Boston. Boston's legal market is a closed shop. The old expression is this:

In New York City - its how much money you make
In Washington D.C. - its who your political connections are
In Boston - its what family line do you come from.

Very few BU grads stay in Boston unless they grew up there or got clerkships in town. The BU degree helped my brother only to the extent that he had a job lined up prior to being admitted. That's it. The Boston area schools are highly rated but are very expensive.

Boston is a great City to goto school in - but a 168 LSAT will not get you into Columbia or Yale where you would have certain prospects upon graduation. The job market for lawyers is bad now - it will be MUCH worse in 2013.

Read my post about lawyering in the thread about leaving the country to escape 200k in loan debt - I go into my last 10 years.

What I strongly suggest is that you DEFER entry into Law School and work in a field that interests you for a year - start to pick up a trade - at least take a year of work to figure out what you want to do.

Second option - go to Law School part time and take 4.5 years or so to get it - have a normal job or learn a trade during the day - play both ends of the spectrum.

[Samseau]

Well guys, you sold me; the new stats for law schools are out this summer and the situation sucks beyond belief. Time to get out of this shit while I'm ahead.

Not sure what I can do at this point, but at least it won't be 3 years with 100K wasted. What a fucked up world I was born into.

[hydrogonian]

(06-16-2010 02:34 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Well guys, you sold me; the new stats for law schools are out this summer and the situation sucks beyond belief. Time to get out of this shit while I'm ahead.

Not sure what I can do at this point, but at least it won't be 3 years with 100K wasted. What a fucked up world I was born into.

Samseau, I'd hate to influence someone with such a large decision, through a message board, but I sincerely think that your decision is a wise one.

When you weigh the schoolwork, tuition cost, time cost, average mid-law salary vs the employment risk and average happiness quotient of an attorney, I see it as a very high risk gamble...

Look into the health field, imo, for stability and above average pay, and work life balance... The rehab field in-particular...OT, PT, or SLP.

[Samseau]

I remember senior year of high school: "You've got plenty of time to figure out what to do!"

Freshman year of college: "Changing majors isn't a big deal! Do what major you enjoy!"


I've been fed lies my entire life. Shit's awesome.

Quote:

Samseau, I'd hate to influence someone with such a large decision, through a message board

Don't worry man, this isn't the only place I've consulted.









Everyone, please see here:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html

And see evil.

[Jason Zee]

Don’t go to law school if you can’t get into one of the top 14. The economy sucks and you would be pretty much SOL if you attend BC.

[ersatz]

Math heavy professions, or just professions with a mathematical barrier of entry, but doesn't use much math beyond basic algebra, are making it pretty good right now. There are billboards for hiring engineers in Silicon Valley right now (yes, programming nerds) , and it's a comfortable office job that makes 6 figures starting out or after a year or two of working. Petroleum is another big one, so is Phamaceutials and Health in general.

[joehoya]

If you actually do go to law school, and graduate without a great job lined up, let me give you a strategy that my former lawyer boss used to make bank. The beauty of it is that it will work even if you don't have a ton of experience. What she taught me was to find a small niche legal procedure that could be systematized and scaled (basically a cookie cutter formula) and do that. It won't be glamorous, but you can make bank.

Her method was to find people that were owed real estate and unclaimed investment assets from folks that had died with no declared heirs (this was 15 years ago, so the details are a bit hazy). She would find the money and the heirs, and take a commission for the job. The real beauty of her set up was that 99% of the work could be done by a legal assistant (which was my job at the time) making $10-12 per hour (she only paid me $7 or $8 15 years ago). She didn't spend more than half an hour per client, including the client interview, and would walk away with a fat check on every deal.

The real beauty was that there are tons of these little niches out there that require someone with the knowledge and/or credentials of a lawyer to exploit. She had a list of them. She only did the one mentioned above because that was all she needed to make a ton of cash.

[DLuzhin]

I'm not a lawyer, nor am I in law school, but I'd suggest reading this article:

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/01/a...their.html

Anyway, life's short. If writing philosophy is your ultimate goal then forget other shit and start writing philosophy.

I've considered taking the LSAT's just to score well enough to teach the LSAT's at Kaplan or Princeton Review---I believe your scores are good enough for you to be hired. Make $70+ an hour at a part-time job teaching the LSAT's, spend the rest of your time developing yourself and writing, that sounds like a fucking awesome way to spend out your twenties.