Quote: (06-10-2012 01:48 PM)Samseau Wrote:
Kosko, not once did I blame immigration. I blamed Socialism for the exploding deficits, with immigration as a major contributing factor as immigrants exploit socialist systems (they consume more than they produce under socialist economies).
Quote:Keyser Wrote:
With all due respect to your xenophobic Greek lizard's skills of economic analysis, immigration did not cause Greece's problems. Greece has managed to go bankrupt 5 or 6 times in the past 150 years, regardless of immigration.
Did you read what I wrote?
Quote:Samseau Wrote:
Greece is an example of a socialist economy that fails even without immigration. They granted the Gov too much power and officials have abused it grotesquely.
Also,
Quote:Keyser Wrote:
That is what lies at the root of this. Keep government strong, but make it transparent, let sunlight shine in and reveal the rot at the core so it can be fixed.
This is a fantasy. It is human nature to abuse power. You cannot have an uncorrupted strong government. It will always be perverted with time.
Quote:Creepy Eel Wrote:
My only explanation for that graph is that the "spending" represented in it actually includes the spiraling costs (interest rates) of servicing the debt, so even though the budget revenues stay the same, paying off the interest raises the budget size (and deficits, since you need to take out additional debt to service the old one). I'll have to research this more, thanks for the information.
The charts take debt servicing into account, but also takes into account all levels of government; i.e. the local/municipal levels of spending.
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With all that said, however, I still don't agree about socialism. First of all, during recessions, the so called "handouts" from unemployment benefits, transfers and etc are the only thing that keeps the economy from drowning even faster - it's called "automatic stabilizers" and I think it's a good thing. Sure, giving out handouts above what you can reasonably pay is a problem that needs to be solved (along with excessive immigration) because it will slowly become a burden, but it is a problem that is not relevant to the debt crisis.
Government handouts are just a band-aid solution to the problems that the government creates.
First of all - it is the government that creates recessions. They allow people to make malinvestments (i.e. "take this subprime loan - it won't hurt you!), and then when enough people default on bad business decisions, the government comes in for the rescue - "Let us support you in these difficult times!"
Which has no direct effect on helping the economy, except to create more single moms.
Second of all, handouts don't consume much of the government. If the government only gave out assistance to citizens who were starving because they lost their job, then government spending would amount to peanuts.
But of course, that's not what governments spend their money on. They spend it on wars, they spend it on free healthcare, free education, a massive police network, a huge inefficient road system, taking care of old people, retards, single moms, mentally ill, etc. Basically anyone or anything they can think of.
Third, powerful governments create feminism. With all of the money and welfare spending, it eliminates the need for men in the family and "empowers" women to fuck alphas with impunity.
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That is why Japan has had levels of debt between 100 and 200% of GDP for decades now, and still borrows at extremely low rates.
Japan is completely fucked. You will see them implode within the next 10-20 years. The only reason they've been able to keep the ponzi going for so long is because they've brainwashed their citizens into buying the government debt, have almost eliminated immigration meaning all government spending goes directly back into the citizens pockets, and Japan's central bank is willing to print money at the drop of a hat to keep bond prices low.
America has only recently started doing the same thing regarding money printing.
The effects of Japan's monetary policies are disastrous; there's been almost zero growth there for the past two decades, suicide is off the charts, the people are crushed underneath a financial oligarchy that uses the people for their own gain, and both men and women have lost interest in reproduction because of how difficult it is to get a decent job or start a business in Japan.
People have been saying Japan was going to explode 20 years ago. It still chugs along. Japan has always had a restritive and closed soceity. Before its forraays into expansionism into Asia during the 19th and early 10th century, it was the most isolated and protectionist Country in the world with the USA. Japan's downfall will be its demographics not its financial state. It has been in tatters for 20 years now but Japan still rolls along because it has been able to basically roll over and hedge upon itself, is it perfect? No of course not they will eventually tap out.
Socialism is not that problem. Nations can happily fund social programs if the tangible economy supports it. This is the issue. Debt is not tangible it is a anti-thisis of growth. The more debt a nation takes on that more its economy is in tatters. Look at the External Debt of nations and its GDP, they are almost roughly the same. Today majority of western style nations simply just borrow, there is so little of actual wealth being generated.
New Deal America was one of the two periods of the most prosperous times in American History with the Hamilton era (Hamilton was the first US sec of the Tresuray under Washington) coming in next. You need investments in your citizens, infrastructure and maintain your countries interests on the open market. America speared ahead because it was building more railroads, damns, airports, factories, highways then anybody else in the globe. with this investment in tangible structures capital followed to expand upon those structures that we're put in place.
If the tangible economy is sound it does not matter what the Govt spends on its people as its just a balance sheet wit surplus going into reserve. this is why Nations like Norway succeed or nations like Gadaffi Libya (forget your views on him as a leader) his third way of economic polices had a roboust social state with
NO FOREIGN DEBT. The Govt was in surplus each year and provided evreything to its people. When nations have no goods to offer they simply just borrow into the abyss.
Govt and elite capital go hand in had. they dance to the same song. The State exploits its people to expand and grow. With each cut and slash to the budget, it takes on more debt.. expands and thus needs to cut and slash even more - wash, rinse, repeat. While the Captalists exploi off this by offering The State more and more Debt. They feed of each other, a tho headed monster eating its own tail.
To dispel it notion of a common goal for a collective nation state is to throw away the nation state all together. If a group of people whom can't collectively see that they need to support once of each other via the soils of their hard work you don't have a nation. You simply just have taxpayers and debtors with elites and a over-arching state. I.E. America.
Nations crumble form whiten when they fail to look after the next man and their neighbor.
Even in Hamilton times when a true "Free market" was present (the only time in American history). The Govt set the parimitors in which capital could expand and grow. Class was protected without Govt programs or policy (You could argue that this isn't a true free market.. which is correct but a "Free market" is a fallacy one can not truly exists without legitimacy granted to it from the state. Without that you simply just have a Casino like the UK).
Hamilton-era and New Deal America saw standards of living that we're better than today. Forget your Ipad and fuking dish washing machines. Techonlogy gives an impression of a increased standard of living
when it simply just makes life easier. Ameirca in those two periods had more wealth per capita, as people owned stuff and had assets and re-distributed it back into the economy for growth.
So you can't say "socialism" is the problem. Socialism is a just a product of bad policy and exploitation. Debt is the issue and the inability to control the influx of debt. A nations obligation is to protect its intersts in the market and to protect its people, labour, educational capital, and children.
Nations whom do this prosper. The ones who don't flounder. Neo-Libya was the most advanced nation in Africa and had a high Human Delevelopment Index then many Eastern European nations. In 25 year it would of had a higher standard of living then most Western Nations. The facts don't lie.
Look around and as how much you own? Chinese TV's, Fiat money, or a Car from Europe don't count.
Do you own assets? things with legitimate wealth? The answer will in most case be no. The biggest delusion is Govt and troll economists telling the myth that we are better off now. We own nothing and produce nothing we are
definitely worse off. The wealth didn't vanish, it has always been there. It has just been sucked up into fewer hands that's all.
Socalism is the boogieman and a red herring.
America is the most socialist state on earth. In America you 50 million of your residents depend on the Govt for food, and almost 80-100 depend on it for health care, your economy is centrally controlled with a Treasury manipulating interest rates (when the Govt controls how much its money is worth and not the market it is the definition of a planned economy), prices fixes via selective subsidies, and it has a mercantile war economy where it sets up proxies globally with exploit goal of that nation purchases tech and arms from the USA in return. This was no different from the British exploiting and forcing its colonies to trade rubber and tin with it to develop in its Factories back in the motherland. America needs to checks its self. Its the most "Socialist" of them all.
Social protections and Socialism are not the same thing. Its a nations obligation to protect its people and its its peoples interests.
And also Govt did not "invent" feminism. It simply only gave it legitimacy. Feminism was stated by rich oligarchs. The State sees Feminism in the same light as oligarchs as it enriches their power.
Also Govt does not create recessions. Recessions are created from a lack of money or now credit. The Great depression was caused by the limiting of credit not by the Govt. And again The State simply takes advantage of this by growing its scope. The Govt does not control the money or credit markets so how can you blame them for recessions? 2008 was caused by capitalists taking money off the market. They are still hoarding this money to this day, trillions and trillions of capital that has yet to reach credit markets.