[Big Country]

These things are subjective. I didn't bang my ex the first night I met her, nor the other before that. In fact, none of my four relationships longer than six months started with a bang the first night. (In order: 1 1/2 years, 1 year, 3 years, 6 months)

The most recent two I met in clubs, made out with them, got a number and bounced out. I think text game is more important in really making an effect on a girl's psyche. Last night you were some drunk dude who she was infatuated with. This morning she's laughing at your texts and getting turned on.

Like I said though, it's subjective and the variance in this is so wide. There isn't just one type of girl you run into. Of the, admittedly, few girls I've had first night sex with, all of them kept in contact after, but it just faded out. I haven't had a meaningful relationship with a girl I've banged the first night. Probably a good thing in my book.

So if the advice is for guys looking to get into a "serious" LTR, I'd say from my experience, fucking the first night is probably not the best move.

[Lizard King]

(10-26-2014 01:55 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Interested in revisiting this thread. Would the consensus still agree on this?

The information in this thread is excellent.

However, it is lacking information about maintaining an LTR.

I am currently in an LTR(since December last year), and it is gradually descending in to the shit, so to speak.

Why? Because I have not focused on maintaining the emotional connection. Everything else is great. I have done quite a few things to her sexually that no one else has ever done, she likes hanging out with me. We have even talked about moving in together.

The emotional connection is crucial to maintaining an LTR. In an LTR you have to be beta sometimes, well, not total beta. It's complex, and I'm not really the right person to explain it. If I was my girlfriend would be a bit happier with me right now!

[Big Country]

(10-26-2014 05:14 PM)Lizard King Wrote:  

(10-26-2014 01:55 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Interested in revisiting this thread. Would the consensus still agree on this?

The information in this thread is excellent.

However, it is lacking information about maintaining an LTR.

I am currently in an LTR(since December last year), and it is gradually descending in to the shit, so to speak.

Why? Because I have not focused on maintaining the emotional connection. Everything else is great. I have done quite a few things to her sexually that no one else has ever done, she likes hanging out with me. We have even talked about moving in together.

The emotional connection is crucial to maintaining an LTR. In an LTR you have to be beta sometimes, well, not total beta. It's complex, and I'm not really the right person to explain it. If I was my girlfriend would be a bit happier with me right now!

The whole point of a relationship is the fact that you make each other happier when you are together. After a while though, for me at least, it gets stale. You fall into routines and every day feels like the last. I always went stir crazy and always ended up cheating.

I've had the best success by not giving a fuck about their emotional swings. I am not their girlfriends. I do not get involved at all in their emotional business. I am generally supportive and appreciative of them, but I am not their emotional baggage rack.

I think this is what frame is useful for in relationships. You should always maintain who you are at your core, because when you start to make sacrifices, that's when you end up losing your identity. The way I see it is, they fell in love with me for who I am and who I aspire to be. Not what they want me to be.

[Lizard King]

(10-26-2014 05:27 PM)Big Country Wrote:  

(10-26-2014 05:14 PM)Lizard King Wrote:  

(10-26-2014 01:55 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Interested in revisiting this thread. Would the consensus still agree on this?

The information in this thread is excellent.

However, it is lacking information about maintaining an LTR.

I am currently in an LTR(since December last year), and it is gradually descending in to the shit, so to speak.

Why? Because I have not focused on maintaining the emotional connection. Everything else is great. I have done quite a few things to her sexually that no one else has ever done, she likes hanging out with me. We have even talked about moving in together.

The emotional connection is crucial to maintaining an LTR. In an LTR you have to be beta sometimes, well, not total beta. It's complex, and I'm not really the right person to explain it. If I was my girlfriend would be a bit happier with me right now!

The whole point of a relationship is the fact that you make each other happier when you are together. After a while though, for me at least, it gets stale. You fall into routines and every day feels like the last. I always went stir crazy and always ended up cheating.

I've had the best success by not giving a fuck about their emotional swings. I am not their girlfriends. I do not get involved at all in their emotional business. I am generally supportive and appreciative of them, but I am not their emotional baggage rack.

I think this is what frame is useful for in relationships. You should always maintain who you are at your core, because when you start to make sacrifices, that's when you end up losing your identity. The way I see it is, they fell in love with me for who I am and who I aspire to be. Not what they want me to be.

I have followed that type of approach almost exactly, but it hasn't done much for the relationship.

I agree about 'maintaining who you are at your core'. In my younger days I had a very turbulent relationship with a very crazy woman, learned some harsh lessons, one of which was maintaining one's core self.

I think it is possible to be like that but be beta in certain circumstances in order to keep things going smoothly. Being alpha all the time in an LTR isn't going to work out in most cases, just as being beta all the time wouldn't help.

[Akula]

(10-26-2014 05:14 PM)Lizard King Wrote:  

(10-26-2014 01:55 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

Interested in revisiting this thread. Would the consensus still agree on this?

The information in this thread is excellent.

However, it is lacking information about maintaining an LTR.

I am currently in an LTR(since December last year), and it is gradually descending in to the shit, so to speak.

Why? Because I have not focused on maintaining the emotional connection. Everything else is great. I have done quite a few things to her sexually that no one else has ever done, she likes hanging out with me. We have even talked about moving in together.

The emotional connection is crucial to maintaining an LTR. In an LTR you have to be beta sometimes, well, not total beta. It's complex, and I'm not really the right person to explain it. If I was my girlfriend would be a bit happier with me right now!

I just think that inevitably as the "Honeymoon" period wears off you're going to get less and less interested in the person and certainly the sex will go stale. While I agree you need a blend of Alpha and beta, eventually it won't matter. I typically get a little more beta as time goes on and have even used this to slowly peel away from the women I'm in mini-relationships with. Sometimes you just need to move on.

The only reason to have a serious long-term relationship IMO is if you are going to have kids with this woman. Anything else and I know it's going to end at some point, so I start thinking about an exit strategy from the get go. Women really aren't that impressive typically once you get over their looks, and inevitably they do something that means they aren't good long-term relationship candidates (at least in my experience - that's why I'm not married I guess ).

But in spite of all this I think you still need to "enjoy the moments" and just have fun with her while she's still around. But just realize that most relationships don't work out and you really don't owe here anything.

[Menace]

I think there are other reasons for LTR or multiple LTR's. One question, is what is "L"? Six months? A year? Different for everyone. Not every one wants to constantly cycle new girls. It gets tiring, and it is time consuming. There is an opportunity cost to doing this. Time expended chasing girls is time not devoted to other valuable endeavors. Additionally, not everyone is wired in quite the same way with respect to new pussy. Yes, we all want it, but the amounts vary. I like to have 1-2 serious LTR's (>1 year), then occasional side girls who are not gf-types, i.e. ones that you do not go out with socially with your friends. Finally, some of us actually enjoy the intimacy you gain from extended repeated contact.

As for the alpha/beta thing, these are just training-wheel labels that are more useful for newbies. Once this stuff gets integrated in your personality, it doesn't matter anymore, as long as the overall frame is that you're in charge. That's the main thing. You can do "beta" stuff, and be sweet, and it's not going to suddenly ruin everything. It is also still important to give girls emotional spikes (positive AND negative) on occasion, because that is what they need. This is especially true if you are not inherently an emotional person.

[Akula]

(10-27-2014 05:44 AM)Menace Wrote:  

I think there are other reasons for LTR or multiple LTR's. One question, is what is "L"? Six months? A year? Different for everyone. Not every one wants to constantly cycle new girls. It gets tiring, and it is time consuming. There is an opportunity cost to doing this. Time expended chasing girls is time not devoted to other valuable endeavors. Additionally, not everyone is wired in quite the same way with respect to new pussy. Yes, we all want it, but the amounts vary. I like to have 1-2 serious LTR's (>1 year), then occasional side girls who are not gf-types, i.e. ones that you do not go out with socially with your friends. Finally, some of us actually enjoy the intimacy you gain from extended repeated contact.

As for the alpha/beta thing, these are just training-wheel labels that are more useful for newbies. Once this stuff gets integrated in your personality, it doesn't matter anymore, as long as the overall frame is that you're in charge. That's the main thing. You can do "beta" stuff, and be sweet, and it's not going to suddenly ruin everything. It is also still important to give girls emotional spikes (positive AND negative) on occasion, because that is what they need. This is especially true if you are not inherently an emotional person.

Good points all and worth reflecting on. I guess my point about kids was more about marriage than LTRs. I seriously don't understand why anyone would get married in the West and put themselves in that kind of danger unless it was a rock-solid sorta thing (rare) where you were having kids and both willing to make the sacrifices to "make it work." Divorce rape and Feminist influences are just too powerful to ignore for the most part though.

Funny you mention the points about intimacy gained from familiarity and knowing these women for an extended period of time as I'm starting to go through some of this stuff now actually. A couple of the women I've been with in the past, while maybe not 'mother of my child' candidates, are actually pretty fun and interesting girls who I want to see again. I guess I'm 'recycling' a bit but the truth is they are far better than most of the random girls I meet out there and I'd rather spend time with them off and on than set aside night after night during the week to approach and pipeline.

Chasing new women constantly does get old, especially as I age, and it's nice to go back to what's familiar. Or to have something that's there and more stable, at least from time to time. As long as you know the rules and can manage things it shouldn't really matter game-wise I guess.

Re timing I call 3-6 month encounters "mini-relationships" and anything over 1 year a "relationship" but that's just me.

[blacknwhitespade]

So basically the key to get a hot, quality girlfriend is to go out and bang some other women, thus attracting said future hot girlfriend, bang her immediately, then play hard to get to make her exclusive to you.

[Rawmeo]

You can get the girl out of the bar but you can't get the bar out of the girl.

If you get laid with this girl so easily, chances are that other guys will get laid just as easily as you did. She tried a fair selection of cocks and she will just get the next one if you are not perfect. All girls with whom I've developed a LTR were virgins. With other ones, they just moved on to someone else when they were not 100% satisfied

[Lizard King]

(10-27-2014 09:50 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

So basically the key to get a hot, quality girlfriend is to go out and bang some other women, thus attracting said future hot girlfriend, bang her immediately, then play hard to get to make her exclusive to you.

Is 'making her exclusive to you' the same as her 'wanting to be exclusive to you'(not for ideological reasons like 'monogamy is better', but because of emotional reasons).

If you coerce a woman to do something she has a get out clause, which is not engaging in the transaction or process. If you activate her desire for intimacy with you, it is possible to take that further to her 'being exclusive'. Rollo explains it well: You cannot negotiate desire.

It is generally agreed that sexual exclusivity can be induced a number of ways(providing certain conditions have already been met).

What type of exclusive do you want? Monogamous relationship?or you having multiple girls you fuck, who only fuck you? Neither will work through one process, various types of behaviour etc are required

[UberBicep]

Looks like there's a trend appearing in this thread and I conclude also. Go for bang as quick and fast as possible. Doesn't matter if it's 5 minutes or 3 dates, it does depend on the chick. If you don't bang her ASAP, you know that someone else will or already has. And that's what she's expecting. She wants to be swept up off her feet, bent over and fucked so hard she's confused as to how it all happened. And she'll respect you for doing so, she'll respect your skills as a man that so many dudes just don't got.

[bacan]

I disagree with this thread when it comes to a particular scenario. If you want an LTR with a true good girl -- one that never gives it up easy -- you have to wait.

However, for 95% of girls you meet, this advice won't apply. If a girl has ever had sex on a first date or a first night, I'll expect her to do the same for me if she wants me to be her boyfriend. Then again, why would I want to have a girlfriend who has had sex with a guy the same night she met him? That disgusts me -- I'd never be able to trust her to not get drunk and do something slutty and cheat on me some night.

[TeddyBeer]

I used to have this approach, bacan. Trust me. It does NOT work. Not even on Christian women. Trust me!

I used to apply the 'wait for the right moment' approach on some girls. I NEVER heard from them again. I even had some women tell me:"Exactly. You didn't do anything. Do me a favor and stay away from me".

Whether if you want a ONS or a LTR. GO FOR THE BANG!

Edit: oh damn...i just realised this is an old thread. Sorry.

[OregonToSoCal]

I'm still split on the effectiveness of this strategy. I always seem to fall short when I come so close to getting the bang (fingering her, eating her out, literally rubbing my cock head on her pussy) but she absolutely, positively, won't go any further. In those situations seeing her again is a guaranteed no in my experience.

It's a mind fuck because my experience shows that if you push too hard with the no first date sex women you'll lose them forever. On the other hand if you don't push hard enough with the yes on the first date ones you'll lose them too. I still don't have any kind of reliable screening method to keep both types in the fold and live to see another date. This is the one aspect of game that literally keeps me awake at night and causes me so much self doubt.

[TeddyBeer]

I think its about how you approach them. Remember this about women: Their words are meaningless. I had girls tell me they rather take their time and I fucked them on the first or second date. In my experience, if they're creeped out, they're not attracted to you.

Also for them to fall in love, you have to have sex with them first.

[Travesty]

(03-20-2015 08:42 AM)bacan Wrote:  

I disagree with this thread when it comes to a particular scenario. If you want an LTR with a true good girl -- one that never gives it up easy -- you have to wait.

However, for 95% of girls you meet, this advice won't apply. If a girl has ever had sex on a first date or a first night, I'll expect her to do the same for me if she wants me to be her boyfriend. Then again, why would I want to have a girlfriend who has had sex with a guy the same night she met him? That disgusts me -- I'd never be able to trust her to not get drunk and do something slutty and cheat on me some night.

In my experience isn't likely the case. Here are my American virgin stats:

20yo - Got in bed naked hand job, fingering on 3rd date, church girl. No smoking barely ever drank. Was pre-game, didn't even really go for the bang with logistics until the 3rd date. Bet I could have gotten her naked and in bed date 1 if I knew what I was doing back then.

20yo - Super good girl, old soul, never partied barely drank, date 1 took her to a bar and snuck in vodka bottles to get her buzzed, made out hard on the street 1 block from my place - she refused to go back. I went for sex on the second date as well, banged her on the 3rd. She told me she was a virgin after sex.

23yo - Went for sex on date one, she confessed virginity on date 2 right before bang. We drank heavily both dates.

20yo - Date one I didn't have logistics, and had plans later in the night - if I had logistics and was free she was down to go drink whiskey at my place. Made out hard in a parking lot at end of date. Got her to underwear on date 2, blowjob date 3. She confessed virginity in a text after date 1.

These girls all for the most part barely knew me. 3 of the 4 had never met one of my friends, I never met theirs, didn't have any social media, never met one of my family members.

On the other end the hottest girl I have ever fucked, a party girl, I had sex within 2 hours of meeting her in a club. Context doesn't matter. They are all wired the same.

I went for drinking and sex as quick as I would with a hot a slut. No difference. 3 of the 4 wanted a relationship with me immediately. I bet if I was interested enough in any of the 3 enough I could have married them easily.

2 of the 3 that wanted me had pretty cool personalities, biggest flaw was they were mid 6's and I can't see myself being faithful and happy banging anything less than a 7 for decades.

So the answer is go for it no matter what. Never slow play. It doesn't matter.

Attraction is almost completely front-loaded. They know within about 30 minutes or so of using your mouthpiece whether they want to fuck you or not no matter how innocent they are.

Doesn't matter what kind of woman. There is no slow cooker. One of those virgins was from a church group social circle so the context doesn't even matter. Could there be a more cliche innocent girl environment to pick up from? I asked her out inside a church owned community building.

I think Maybe Girls are much less prevalent than guys think. I think the vast majority guys think they converted are just Yes Girls that were very good at hiding their attraction. I bet 80% of Maybe Girls if you could read their mind had mostly made it up in the first 30 minutes whether they were going to fuck you. It wasn't won over on hour number 4 of interaction or on date 3.

All the real action happens right after tip-off.

Body language, voice, hygiene, dress style, facial expressions, and quick humor are the main game that gets them in those first 30 minutes. It isn't your experiences or stories. It may be how you tell them, but the subject matter means little.

If the same guy with the same game and dress met a chick and had 30 minute to talk to her I bet if he told stories about rummaging through a garbage dump for refridgerator parts in one scenario, then in a different scenario told a story about how he sailed around the the world and went through a hurricane I bet his chances of getting laid would almost be identical. It is how you present it.

[Apollo21]

Long term relationships are, by their very definition, stable
and based on a chemistry that goes beyond sex.

So having sex alone, even amazing sex, doesn't make a relationship
long term. It just kickstarts everything...once you start to get to know
each other is the only way of finding out if your relationship is really
going to be long term.

Thus getting laid fast is not a reliable strategy to get
a long term relationship.

The only way to get a long term relationship is to find a girl
who has the same values and beliefs as you do and actually
have a relationship with her.

If you just go after fast hookups, then naturally you'll tend to just
get fast hookups and not necessarily long term relationships.

[Travesty]

^ It sounds like you agree though that physical chemistry and great sex is the doorway to getting a ticket for the girl to open up enough to want a deeper connection.

I think fast sex is the direct express line to that doorway. You may not get sex on date 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.... 14, but I think even with a girl that is open to a deeper connection you need to push hard for it at some point in every date.

If you haven't gone for a hard make out by mid way of date 2 at the very latest I think you are playing with fire. It doesn't matter if you get rejected, that's fine, as long as she is still there wanting to spend time with you it's good. The girl still needs to know you are coming at her with a head full of steam until she gives in. You can't let up. That's her job.

[XXL]

the topic is how to GET ltr aka to kickstart it.

in case of meeting a girl through cold approach it is very very important to make moves show intent and go for it to make her feel she is desired. social circle situation is different cause there is more time to show your personality. but when you are total stranger you have much smaller window of opportunity to show who you are as a man. since you are the one who wanted to meet her you have to either go for her or not.

if things happen unusually fast for her she might not like it and have a little remorse but she will respect a guy who is not afraid to go for what he wants. that is crucial

[civpro]

The OP deals with the obscure world of cold approach pickup and its own set of rules. For most ordinary men, this is how they should strategize landing a girlfriend/LTR/life partner:

- A girl they meet through a social circle/social introduction
- Of the same race
- Within +2/-5 years in age
- 5 inches shorter
- Of equal fitness level or slightly worse
- Of equal facial attractiveness or slightly better
- Of equal academic achievement or somewhat worse

Now you can fiddle with these specifications -
* Aim higher and have it increasingly harder. (The better your job is the higher you can legit aim.)
* Aim lower and have it increasingly easier.
* Turn to cold approach instead of social circle and have it harder to achieve the same quality.

So that's up to you. But the point is that the specifications set out above however - that archetype - is your societal "match". And at that level the hustle to results ratio is at its most optimized/efficient.

[Apollo21]

(06-27-2015 08:42 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

^ It sounds like you agree though that physical chemistry and great sex is the doorway to getting a ticket for the girl to open up enough to want a deeper connection.

I think fast sex is the direct express line to that doorway. You may not get sex on date 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.... 14, but I think even with a girl that is open to a deeper connection you need to push hard for it at some point in every date.

If you haven't gone for a hard make out by mid way of date 2 at the very latest I think you are playing with fire. It doesn't matter if you get rejected, that's fine, as long as she is still there wanting to spend time with you it's good. The girl still needs to know you are coming at her with a head full of steam until she gives in. You can't let up. That's her job.

It's a fine balancing act...you're not really pushing for fast sex or a deeper connection
as much as you are creating that live electric connection+sparks that embodies everything
that makes a relationship great from the very beginning.

You've got to be aggressive and "play" with her mentally, emotionally and physically all at the same time.

That's why "fast" sex is a bit misleading...since you should already be making out with a girl by your first date.
As for "difficult" girls I just pass on them...a normal girl who likes you shouldn't have a problem getting physical by date 3.

The key is to have a plan from the very beginning so you can shift gears quickly
(mentally, emotionally, physically) and establish the foundation for a LTR.

[forever_beta]

I agree with the op because all of my serious LTR relationships have been ones where it started with sex on or close to the first date.

In my opinion there is no more reliable confirmation of interest than having sex. Also why waste time going for LTR with a girl you don't even know yet if you like having sex with her enough to keep her in your life like that. Having a serious LTR is a significant investment of your time and possibly money.

You have to calibrate to each person and situation but basically my strategy for any girl is just:
1) Try to have sex as soon as possible while getting to know her just like with any other attractive women you would meet otherwise.
2) If you like her after that, be authentic, keep spending time with her, and just let the LTR happen.

Women like to fuck just like men do and I don't think this is limited to american or slutty girls. If you're with her in a situation that's obviously leading to sex and you want to fuck her, why would you artificially back out? I really never understood what the purpose of the mythical before sex "relationship building period" really was.

[Samseau]

(06-28-2015 04:04 AM)civpro Wrote:  

The OP deals with the obscure world of cold approach pickup and its own set of rules. For most ordinary men, this is how they should strategize landing a girlfriend/LTR/life partner:

- A girl they meet through a social circle/social introduction
- Of the same race
- Within +2/-5 years in age
- 5 inches shorter
- Of equal fitness level or slightly worse
- Of equal facial attractiveness or slightly better
- Of equal academic achievement or somewhat worse

Now you can fiddle with these specifications -
* Aim higher and have it increasingly harder. (The better your job is the higher you can legit aim.)
* Aim lower and have it increasingly easier.
* Turn to cold approach instead of social circle and have it harder to achieve the same quality.

So that's up to you. But the point is that the specifications set out above however - that archetype - is your societal "match". And at that level the hustle to results ratio is at its most optimized/efficient.

This makes no sense, sorry man. I'm talking about why sex is necessary to build a relationship, then you start talking about ideal matches via social circles. Your post is irrelevant, because even if she's an ideal match through a social circle you should still go for sex ASAP.

Also I've seen guys land way hotter through cold approach than what their social circle offers them.

[WestIndianArchie]

(06-28-2015 09:45 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Also I've seen guys land way hotter through cold approach than what their social circle offers them.

[Teddykgb]

My only relationships were from social circle.

I probably banged around 50 to 60 girls from tinder/pof/daygame and the longest relationship that came from those were a few months. I had a few that turned into friends with benefits but I think I was too much of a douche that they realized they wouldn't want to date me.

Out of the three social circle girls I banged all three were anywhere from 6 to 10 month long relationships.

I think it has something to do with the social proof of a social circle girl that gave me a lot more lee way on putting up with my shitty behavior but with all the other girls without social proof they weren't willing to put up with the shitty behavior.