[Foolsgo1d]

I'd prefer a shotgun. It would not give me a false sense of security of going into situations where I have a semi/full-auto rifle with a big clip and hoping to be king of the hill.

[Baphomet]

Technically, a "worst case scenario" would be something like a 20 mile wide asteroid hitting the planet at about 30,000 MPH. All your guns, water filters, and MREs will not another minute buy...

When thinking about "prepping" you're probably better off thinking about "emergency preparedness" instead. This means that you develop a table of emergency events that are most likely to occur in your location.

Someone in Nebraska, isn't going to have to worry much about hurricanes, but they damn well need to worry about tornadoes.

As others have mentioned, there is no limit to how much you can spend on "preps." There are guys who have multiple buildings on their land filled to the rafters with beans, rice, spare auto parts, water barrels, medical supplies, etc. The odds are very good that they will die of old age, before they actually start using any of those supplies. They are prepping for "The End Of The World As We Know It."

Barring an extinction event like the aforementioned asteroid impact, simple momentum will see the entire world and civilization in general trundle onward. Especially in 1st world nations, like the US.

Now that is not to say that shit can't hit the fan LOCALLY. Katrina was a fine example of a major disaster event that brutally affected a locality, but left most of the US largely untouched.

Katrina also served to demonstrate how impotent Government is to help during real disasters. (I'm pretty sure that various Church groups from the states around LA were the first on the scene with aid.) In an area prone to hurricanes and flooding, the vast majority of people there seemed to utterly disregard their duty to prepare for a crisis.

I use a simple formula when considering emergency preparedness. I multiply the number of days the worst prior emergency in my area lasted (the principle event, and the aftermath) by three.

So in my area at the time, after hurricane Hugo, we were without power for 5 days, and it was another 10 days before there was a sense of normalcy about things like traffic, grocery store lines, filling station lines, and the like. Multiply that time by 3 - 45 days - and you have what I consider to be a reasonable "safe prep" goal.

Because no events with a longer duration of disturbance (15 days) have occurred since Cat 5 Hugo (1989), AND as events go, it was very destructive, 45 days of supplies should be adequate to get through any LIKELY event.

I say "likely" because I'm operating from the table of probable emergency events for my preparedness. I do not fault those who want to go balls on fire into prepping for TEOTWAWKI. Each man has to decide that for themselves. However, I do not buy into the instant societal collapse scenarios.

[BBinger]

(01-16-2019 03:04 PM)Baphomet Wrote:  

Technically, a "worst case scenario" would be something like a 20 mile wide asteroid hitting the planet at about 30,000 MPH. All your guns, water filters, and MREs will not another minute buy...

When thinking about "prepping" you're probably better off thinking about "emergency preparedness" instead. This means that you develop a table of emergency events that are most likely to occur in your location.

Someone in Nebraska, isn't going to have to worry much about hurricanes, but they damn well need to worry about tornadoes.

As others have mentioned, there is no limit to how much you can spend on "preps." There are guys who have multiple buildings on their land filled to the rafters with beans, rice, spare auto parts, water barrels, medical supplies, etc. The odds are very good that they will die of old age, before they actually start using any of those supplies. They are prepping for "The End Of The World As We Know It."

Barring an extinction event like the aforementioned asteroid impact, simple momentum will see the entire world and civilization in general trundle onward. Especially in 1st world nations, like the US.

I've got a handful of contacts on the ground in Vzla. By all appearances over the weekend Venezuela was targeted for intense Psyops over the weekend by USG.NSA and on Monday USG.State loudly announced their intention to mount a "color" revolution.

Wat do?

The time to get out was 2013-2015 and more than one contact did during that window only to find themselves back in the boiler.

Venezuela faces the prospect of getting triple teamed by the US, NATO prospect Colombia, and new empire Brasil while aggravating all parties with Maduro's likely ability to sink a US aircraft carrier or two with chinese missiles bought with the oil and mineral wealth he wasn't spending on arepas to feed the generally Bolivarian people.

Wat do indeed?

These contacts are located in the sorts of nice suburbs the US as typically appropriated for their own forward operating bases. Generally they dislike how they have been frog boiled by Maduro, but when they look at how unhumanitarian US humanitarian interventions are...

Wat do?

The best way out is a plane ticket, but it has to be got and used before the airport either gets turned into a forward operating base or cratered into uselessness. These are fairly well of people who have visa free travel to the rest of South America, but... once again...

Wat do?

[Paracelsus]

I'm going to leave here for future reference a link to John T. Reed's blog on Surviving Hyperinflation and Depression, which is more like financial doomsday prepping. I bought a copy of his book -- he only sells direct to people, no fucking Amazon, contact details are on the site -- and it's solid as far as I can tell for US.

In essence, his main approach to protecting yourself in the event of Venezuela shitshow hyperinflation is to start getting ready now. If you smell smoke in a movie theatre, the rational thing to do is get up quietly and calmly and make your way to the exits then - before anyone else notices.

One primary plan he suggests is to just get the fuck out of the US as fast as possible and hold some of your money in non-US-dollar-denominated assets across the border in Canada. Perfectly legal to have assets overseas, and just as legal to hold them in a form whose value is not tied to the value of the dollar. Again, a current US passport becomes the first tool in your SHTF bag or whatever. If you have the money and the time, his first approach would be to basically swing from tourist visa to tourist visa 90 days at a time in other non-fucked-up countries until the hyperinflation party stops.

Basically hyperinflation can't be sustained. Not forever. Historically they run about 6-18 months. Eventually the government runs out of money and collapses, after which it produces a new fiat currency that can be trusted.

I can see one significant problem with this approach, which would be: doesn't account for what other countries might do when thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Americans suddenly start showing up through the ports and airports carrying not-a-lot of currency that's worth anything. Wouldn't surprise me if the "compassionate" world suddenly starts slamming up the No Entry signs if America gets into this state.

Dual citizenship is going to be handy; better still is citizenship in a country whose passport automatically gets you into other countries, e.g. Schengen Area, or even better, a Commonwealth Citizen travel document which might get you into such diverse places as Singapore or fucking Barbados. If you have the resources and know how to live frugally, you just keep moving until the shit blows over at home.

(Getting out via airports in particular won't be easy by virtue of a limited number of flights; I'd suggest the better approach would be simply to drive or even hoof it to the Canadian border and get out that way.)

Failing that, then, surviving in hyperinflationary conditions has a lot of historical precedents, and you can have a look at how the flatheads in Venezuela are eking out an existence at the moment.

See anyone in Venezuela trumpeting physical gold? Nope, in hyperinflationary conditions it's a trap, because you can't easily divide it into small bits. And even if you could you'd likely have to assay it so the person knew they were getting gold rather than tinfoil. And take the risk of being robbed either on your way into the goldsmith or on your way out. By and large, the means of exchange in hyperinflation is going to be small consumer goods, because the dollar won't be worth jack shit and people will be trying to spend it as fast as they can if they do get any of it.

What would a hyperinflationary situation look like? John T Reed helpfully provided a speculative article:

Quote:

Why hyperinflation instead of regular inflation?

Why not inflation like in the late 1970s and early 1980s? Why does it have to be hyperinflation this time around?

Because one of the effects of high inflation in the late 1970s and early 1980s was the spread of indexation, also called cost-of-living adjustment clauses. They are in laws, union contracts, long-term leases, federal pensions, federal health care expenses, TIPs bonds, and elsewhere. As a consequence, inflation no longer works for making it easier for the U.S. government pay its bills by simply “printing” a little extra money. The more money they “print,” the higher inflation goes. The higher inflation goes, the more money the federal government has to “print” to send out Social Security and other checks.

The other reason the U.S. government now has to employ hyperinflation rather than just high inflation is the size of the U.S. national debt is too huge. Higher inflation means higher interest. When the national debt is $20 trillion, as it now is, a 1% increase in the interest the government has to pay ultimately means they need to write checks for 1% x $20T = 200 billion more.

I say “ultimately” because most U.S. government bonds have fixed interest rates so the rates would not go up until each bond matures. With regard to TIPs bonds, they have to pay more on those every six months because they are indexed.

Also, the amount of principal the U.S. government has to pay off each year is in the trillions. When the bond market stops buying U.S. bonds, all the money to pay off those multi-trillion-dollar maturing bond amounts must come from current tax revenue—forget about it—or by “printing” trillions of dollars. U.S. annual tax revenues are currently about $3.3 trillion. The principal payments on maturing bonds are more than that. We have been refinancing those maturing bonds. But when the bond market stops buying U.S. bonds, where will they get those trillions to pay off maturing bonds? Only by “printing” it.

“Printing” trillions of dollars does not cause mere inflation or even high inflation. It causes hyperinflation.

What is the definition of hyperinflation? One definition is it is when a $100 bill will not buy anything at all. Not even a gum ball.

What it will be like the day the dollar dies

What will it feel like in America when that happens? I will now try to describe that for you, based on my years of research of past hyperinflations around the world and throughout history. When it happens, it will reach a tipping point like the last snowflake that starts an avalanche. At that point, on that day, it will be too late to do most things to protect yourself. Here is what that day will probably look like. They ought to make a made-for-TV movie about it. Such a movie might inspire Americans to finally take action to head it off.

Your cell phone rings. It is your spouse.

Are you watching TV or listening to the radio now?

No, why?

Turn it on. Prices are going crazy. People are going crazy.

What channel?

All of them.

You turn on a news channel. Aerial video shows shopping center parking lots clogged along with adjacent streets and highways. Everybody in the country is simultaneously on the biggest shopping spree of their lives.

Video shows people having fist fights over shopping carts and even illegal parking spaces. People are bringing kids’ wagons and wheeled suitcases to use as shopping carts because there are not enough carts.

The video switches to the interiors of the stores. The shelves are empty. People are having fist fights over the few remaining items. The video shows supermarkets, hardware stores, department stores, car dealers, appliance dealers, arts and crafts stores, drug stores, pet stores, every kind of store.

The voice-over announcer explains that customers are screaming at the checkout counter over price increases between the prices marked on the shelves and the ones in the register. Hand-written signs say “no credit cards, cash or debit card only.” Customers are demanding to use their credit cards.

The announcer reports that virtually every credit card in the nation has been cancelled regardless of your payment history or credit rating, but it doesn’t matter anyway because simultaneously, every merchant in America has stopped accepting anything but cash or debit cards. And businesses that normally allow customers to pay within 30 days for no interest are rapidly switching to cash on delivery if not in advance as the only terms they offer.

And he helpfully adds that if you don’t believe him, you can call your credit card company or go to their web site, but you probably won’t be able to get through to either because the switchboards are jammed and the web sites say “too busy try again.” Audio is heard of busy signals and video shows one major bank credit card web page after another saying “Try again” on the screen. They also show some bank web pages that say all credit cards have been cancelled because of the interest rate and inflation crisis.

The announcer goes on,

No loans appear to be available because no one can figure out what the inflation is or will be so they are afraid to make a loan until they are sure they know what the inflation and market interest rates will be during the loan. That even includes short-term loans like credit cards.

It’s the same story on line. Video appears of harried on-line retailer phone answerers trying to explain to irate customers why the prices are higher and why they will not take credit cards.

Video of restaurants appears. All the customers want take out. Bigger orders than normal. No one has time to sit down and eat. They are too busy topping off their gas tank or searching for a store with some merchandise left.

Many are trying to buy foreign currency or foreign bonds, but those prices are also soaring as we speak because Americans and everyone else in the world are trying to trade U.S. dollars for other currencies and no one wants U.S. dollars.

A video of a bank office appears. A manager explains that monstrous demand for transferring cash out of various accounts into debit card accounts is overwhelming the employees and computers. In bank lobbies, people are trying to deposit piggy banks into debit card accounts or convert the piggy bank contents into cash. Many banks ran out of cash and the armored cars are going crazy making extra trips to the local Federal Reserve Banks to get more cash. Bank customers are screaming at the tellers that they want their money right now!

More video shows store employees ripping price tags off shelves and posting hand-written signs that say the only price that is official is the one in the cash register when you check out. Another shows gas station operators adding a cardboard hand-written digit to the left of their gasoline/diesel price signs to reflect the fact that gas now has a more-than-$100 per gallon price.

The inevitable experts—economists, authors, and former government officials—appear on TV news shows. They explain,

The dollar has been fiat money since the 1970s. That means there is no gold or silver or anything of value behind it. All countries have had fiat money currencies for decades. That means the currency is only as good as the trust the world has for it. As a result of more and more and more borrowing by the U.S. government, one too many straws were placed on the camel’s back of trust. The thread of trust has broken.

People in the U.S. and around the world no longer trust that they will be paid back by the U.S. government if they own U.S. government bonds and people in the U.S. and around the world no longer trust that a dollar will retain its purchasing power.

The result was quite predictable, but the politicians and the American people refused to believe. Now, because we obviously have a worldwide run on the dollar, they belatedly believe it.

“What is a run on the dollar?” a newsman asks.

Everyone in the U.S. and around the world who owns dollars or dollar-denominated bonds wants to trade them for something else, anything else, generally hard goods or a stable foreign currency if there are any.

“Can it be stopped?”

It will be stopped because people will simply not go to work if they are paid in dollars and they will not lend money if they are required, as now, to accept dollars as repayment. The sentence on all your American folding money in your pocket says, “The note is legal tender for all debts, public and private.” That is the manifestation of the “Legal Tender Laws” and court decisions. It means creditors have to accept U.S. dollars to pay off debts regardless of whether they have no purchasing power. As long as those laws remain in effect, no one in his right mind will make a loan to anyone for any reason, including to the U.S. government, unless they feel confident they can forecast inflation over the life of the loan and get more interest than the inflation rate. Right now, the inflation rate has gone hyper, but no one knows what it is nor is there any reason to believe the rate, whatever it is, will remain constant.

“How can the hyperinflation and the run on the dollar be stopped?”

End the dollar and replace it with a currency that Americans and the worldwide public trust.

“Like a dollar with gold backing?”

The public would trust that, but only after they demanded gold for the paper and always got it without delay. At present, the U.S. government does not have enough gold to do that. For decades, the U.S. government has refused to let anyone see what it is Fort Knox. I’m guessing the reason is there is very little gold in Fort Knox. Also, a gold standard would probably cause a depression because the money supply has to expand as fast as the economy and the gold supply only expands as fast as gold is discovered which is too slow. The new U.S. currency would probably be backed by a commodity index or some new central bank that was constitutionally independent, run by the nation’s most trusted people, and swore on a stack of Bibles that it would not “print” too much money.

“Would that end the run on the dollar?”

Yes, but that would only be the first step. With no ability to “print” money, which is what caused the hyperinflation,and no ability to borrow because the bond buyers no longer trust the U.S. government, the federal government’s only choice would be to cut federal spending by about 50% overnight. The money would be good again, but the federal government would not be able to collect enough of it in taxes to pay Social Security, federal pensions, Medicare, and so on.

“Would that mean rioting in the streets like in Europe?”

Probably some, but I expect Americans would figure out faster than the Europeans that rioting only makes things worse, like in the black neighborhoods in the 1960s.

“So what would Americans do?”

Scream and yell and whine for a while, then realize there is no money to continue their benefits and focus on the more urgent task than complaining futilely—finding money to buy food and pay the rent.

“How will they do that?”

Get a job, start their own business, ask friends and relatives and charity organizations for help. Many, maybe most Americans are out of practice with that because of all the disability and retirement and generous government benefits, but it is essentially just a pre-1970 sort of America. Not a return to the Great Depression. There would probably be a high growth rate in the private sector if the government did not intervene with price controls and all that. They probably will slap price controls and capital controls and tariffs on everything. That will cause a Depression, but it is impossible to maintain those controls. After they are lifted, the private sector will probably boom. Ultimately, all the money the government spends comes from private sector profits. This will force that economic lesson on Americans. The big government people will never go away, but, for a time at least, they will understand that government essentially can never get more in tax revenue than about 19.5% of the gross domestic product. That’s Hauser’s Law. So the only way to grow government is to grow the GDP. That will be a bitter pill for the liberals—they call it “trickle down”—but they had their chance to see if they could defy the laws of economics, and today you can see the disaster it created.

“Who’s to blame? Wall Street?”

It doesn’t matter at this point but it’s sure as heck not Wall Street. The subprime crisis was not Wall Street’s finest hour, but it was chump change. This hyperinflation is caused by “printing” trillions of dollars. Wall Street’s worst day dealt only with billions of dollars. For example, the Fed guaranteed $30 billion of Bear Stearns assets so J.P Morgan would acquire Bear in March 2008. $30 billion. TARP was less than a trillion and it has mostly been paid back with interest. The problem today is caused by $20 trillion of national debt and deficit spending of more than a trillion a year. Wall Street firms only deal with amounts like that in their dreams. Wall Street cannot “print” money. And Wall Street doesn’t want hyperinflation. They own lots of fixed-rate bonds which is the worst thing you can have during hyperinflation. Wall Street is getting killed by this. This is all government—both Democrat and Republican.

Did the subprime crisis cause what’s happening today?

The subprime crisis, which was discovered in 2007 and 2008, has pretty much washed through the system especially today which causes the remaining underwater mortgage homes to probably no longer be underwater.

Switching to one of the financial channels we find the crawler streaming commodity and foreign currency prices—the measures of the falling purchasing power of the U.S. dollar. Precious metals and other commodities are soaring in price as are some foreign currencies like the Canadian and Australian dollars and the Swiss franc. Countries with fiscal problems like those of the U.S. also are experiencing high inflation.

On the political channels, the President, congressmen, and senators appear one after another white-faced with terror—knowing their political careers are probably over—desperately flailing at oil companies, Wal-Mart, currency speculators, bond short traders, China keeping its currency too cheap, and the other usual suspects during inflation. Shrieking in high dudgeon, they vow to outlaw, investigate, and imprison those who caused this and claim the perps are all businessmen. They promise bank “holidays” (you cannot get your money out of your bank for an indefinite period by order of the President of the United States), price controls, tariffs, and more regulation of business. Pundits debate whether the politicians will get away with blaming business. Economists debate how price controls, tariffs, and regulations will affect the economy and hyperinflation.

Back to the financial channel, where a reporter is explaining that the loan industry has almost entirely shut down. Businesses who routinely borrow for the Christmas season or to plant crops or to come out with a new product or build a new factory find no debt financing available. “There is virtually no credit available at this moment for anyone. And the number of people who want credit has suddenly exploded because of how easy the loans will be to pay off as their payments stay the same but the incomes of businesses and private sector workers adjust upward for inflation. Also, many businesses rely on routine 30-day credit. For some, the loss of that credit will just be an inconvenience. For others, they will have to cut back their business activity or even go out of business because they do not have the cash to pay COD.” “Will that cause a depression,” he is asked. “At the house of the businesses who must have credit, yes. But overall, everyone on earth trading all their dollars for hard goods will cause a manufacturing and other commodities boom which will offset the credit crushing of many businesses. Plus whatever business the crushed businesses did will be picked up by their competitors as new business.”

Another channel is quoting daily newspaper executives as saying most ads for tomorrow’s paper have been cancelled. The stores have no inventory to sell. Their shelves were emptied by today’s mobs frantically trading dollars for hard goods. “Can your paper survive loss of most advertising?” “Not for long. Most of our revenue is from ads. And the last two decades have not been good for newspapers. This could be the coup de grace.”

The anchor switches to another report who has been interviewing manufacturing executives. “Are they ramping up production?” “Yes, but warily. They recognize that there is still demand to buy more hard goods, but also that as the prices rise and the public spends their cash on hand that they will soon lose the ability to buy more. Essentially, today’s frantic purchases were just robbing sales from the future, not a long-term increase in demand. Also, get this, they are going to start paying the employees daily so they can go spend the money immediately before it loses value. I’m told that during hyperinflation in Germany in the 1920s, workers got paid twice a day and immediately left the factory to go spend the money.”

On another channel, a reporter comments that “It is not just the consumers who are frantic to spend their dollars. It’s also the businesses. As soon as they get money from the consumer they try to spend it on more inventory. No one wants the dollar, Both consumers and businesses are treating dollars as if they were hot potatoes or live grenades—passing them onto the next guy as fast as they can.”

More video shows vast expanses of empty seats in sports events and theatrical performances that were sold out well in advance. The ticket holders are out trying to find hard goods to buy.

Another video shows men in a bar complaining that the second round cost more than the first.

It gets far worse after the first day

The above is my best guess at the things that will happen the day the world stops trusting the U.S. dollar. It will be a “you ain’t seen nothing yet” day. Things will get far worse and more complicated in the days after the first day. We’re talking suicides, harmful laws, university endowments disappearing, persons who live on income from certificates of deposit, annuities, Social Security, bond interest, bond principal, and more screaming in anguish and anger and begging for food.

My book How to Protect Your Life Savings from Hyperinflation & Depression, 2nd edition needs 320 pages to explain all this. The chapter on “Government and institutional reaction”—which forecasts the long-term responses of government, banks, stock exchanges, and so on covers 22 pages what you can expect to happen—based on what happened in the many countries that have had hyperinflation in the past.

Mainly, the book describes what the title says, how to not get hurt by this. One big piece of advice is to go to the stores and foreign currency sellers now before the above “day the dollar dies” events take place. Simple advice to follow. Sounds a little dumb today when the store shelves groan with goods. But if you wait too long, you will confront what I described above. When I wrote about the empty store shelves in a previous web article, a reader who had lived in another country that suffered hyperinflation in recent decades said the empty store shelves overnight was exactly what happened there.

You have two choices: you can convert as much of your money into food and other goods before the store shelves are empty or you can wait until after they are empty. And what’s the harm if you stock up now on food, household supplies, office supplies, inventory if you have a business, forever stamps, pennies and nickels (see my book for details), and so on? If, somehow, we avoid hyperinflation, you will simply have bought some stuff sooner than usual that you later consumed.

[Oberrheiner]

"Your money is worth nothing but it's not a problem, you'll just have to go back to work. It's not the speculators' fault, please don't riot like the french and proceed with your daily slavery as usual".
Hmkay, funny text.

Anyway, who believes the US will ever pay back 20 trillions ?
Isn't what backs the value of the dollar simply the fact that any country trying to build an independent banking system will be bombed into oblivion ?

[Tex]

The only non-LARP option for surviving a catastrophic event is the ability to 1) travel to 2) a safe place.

Part 1 means: money, a passport, maybe the ability to speak multiple languages, few possessions (or the psychological attachment to few possession), and well-crafted possessions that give you utility and won't fall apart after two weeks of use.

Part 2 means: strategic location (which changes based on what catastrophic event you are talking about), and a place built to withstand the event and the people problem that comes after it.

Oh, and I forgot Part 3, which is mental toughness. Serious mental toughness.

Pretend an asteroid hit the Earth and strained resources to the point that we don't have the infrastructure for government anymore. No more police, no nothing. You have twenty minutes' notice right before the asteroid hits. You quickly get to your safe bunker under your ranch house in northern Idaho that I know everyone here owns.

Now there you are, alone. Or maybe cooped up with your parents and your sibling in this bunker. Or maybe with your girlfriend and your dad. Or some other random combination of someone close.

You are now like this for the foreseeable future. You think you're mentally strong enough to survive that?

Probably not. Maybe you even get through it physically, but mentally, who you are today will be dead after a year of that.

At some point you have to take a step back and think to yourself: If this doomsday scenario means me surviving pretty much by myself for basically an indefinite amount of time, with no pussy to get, no friends to talk to, no society to contribute to, no legacy to pass on, no people to be a part of, no culture to embody, nothing to do besides read the same few books and try to survive while you slowly get weaker, dumber, and worse at almost every other skill you've developed across your lifetime, aren't you dead anyway?

[Leonard D Neubache]

So I was re-organising some shooting related stuff and digging through my old ammo storage unit which was basically a re-purposed bar fridge with a latch riveted to it.

In poor form I've mostly been using the ammo I bought last since the old stuff took some digging to get to, however during the course of examining it all I realized it was an interesting case study (no pun intended) on my storage technique and how the factory packaging fared over time.

Without going into details the ammo was aged between 5 and 2 years from the date of purchase.

.22lr ammo in 500 round boxes that weren't individually packaged in 10x50 round boxes fared the worst. Having said that, there was only one partially used box that was ugly to the point that I'd hesitate to use the ammo. I decided to sort through it to get rid of the really ugly rounds. They looked something like this:



I tested one taking reasonable precautions and it still went bang like the rest so I put the uglies in a ziplock bag for a last, last, last, last resort option.

As a side note I'd had the foresight to put several of these 500 round boxes in ziplock bags before I stored them and it made a noticeable improvement in the outcome.

.22lr ammo in 50 round boxes stored either in bricks of 10 boxes or individually were pretty much fine. Not quite as shiny as brand new but nothing you'd ask a refund for if you paid full price. Oddly their cardboard protection seemed to trump even the ziplocked 500 round boxes mentioned previously. I highly recommend paying the extra for the individual packaging, in particular because it allows for better trade practices if ammunition ever becomes a more commonly accepted form of currency.

The shotgun shells were equivalent to the unziplocked 500 round 22lr boxes. Not brand-new-pretty but perfectly functional. I would ziplock them as well in future and probably add a desiccant sachet if I could be bothered.

I had a bunch of primers that were at least 4 years old and they looked factory fresh. Not tested though.

I had some steel cased .223 in cheap cardboard packaging that I expected to show signs of rust but they were also factory fresh. They might have a protective lacquer coating but I didn't think to check before I put them away. They are also as yet untested.

.308 in 20 round cardboard packaging was fine. A little dull in shine but still went bang.

The first box I pulled out was that manky box of 22lr so I was obviously a little worried but the rest was pretty much ok. I can recommend re-purposing a bar fridge particularly if you're not storing the ammo inside of your house but it's not a panacea for ammo degradation by itself. Ziplock bags definitely made a difference but smaller overall packaging oddly seemed to be the main factor. Probably the main issue with the loose-round boxes is cases coming into contact with lead or the wax covering on the slugs and subsequent 'hot spots' for even minimal amounts of moisture to build but that's just my best guess.

The moral of the story is: well-sealed-vault>good-packaging>ziplock-bags

As an aside I found a baggie of 22lr+dry dirt and bark chips where I'd dropped a box and had to hastily scoop up the rounds along with everything else that came with them. It had fallen to the back of the bar-fridge behind another box and I'd forgotten all about it. Amazingly they were in better condition than the manky box.

Granted this unexpected experiment only lasted 2-5 years which is trivial in the lifespan of correctly stored ammunition but it pays to remember to extrapolate those results out for additional time if you're planning on potentially storing the stuff for a decade or more. The 500 loose round boxes that were functional but dull would have probably ended up like the manky box in another 2-5 years.

[sterling_archer]

Can't you simply clear copper oxidation from cases?

[roberto]

Some (ideally square for storage) plastic buckets with a sealing lid and a couple of sachets of silica gel in each ought to do the trick.

[ilostabet]

Buy Gold and Silver. Always keep some with you (perhaps even in a bag around your neck), some in your house (between several places), some buried somewhere near you (several places within walking distance) and some buried further away (several places within driving distance). Find a way to keep the coordinates of where you buried it so you don't forget, but in a way that is not obvious to anyone but you.

For those that live in places where you are not allowed guns, like myself, buy tools that can double as guns - the more portable the better.

[Leonard D Neubache]

There's not much payout for carefully cleaning 22lr ammunition. The juice is just not worth the squeeze. Really I should just toss those rubbish rounds but I can't bring myself to throw away functional ammo, no matter how shit it appears.

So it goes in a bag at the back of the shelf for such a time 10 years from now after the bombs have dropped when I need to cleanly kill a domestic meat animal without making a big mess, or put down old Yeller, or for some other equally implausible scenario where I'm reduced to using F-grade ammunition.

(02-08-2019 08:25 AM)roberto Wrote:  

Some (ideally square for storage) plastic buckets with a sealing lid and a couple of sachets of silica gel in each ought to do the trick.

I used to know a chef who gave me a bunch of these buckets to store stuff in.



They were awesome but the hidden drawback was that it turned out the gravy smell drove the local rodents crazy and over the course of a weekend most of the buckets in the shed were ruined.

Also everything inside them ended up smelling like gravy (yes I washed them, twice). I'm not sure how that would affect your accuracy while meat-hunting on an empty stomach, or whether the deer will wonder if a soup-kitchen volunteer is sneaking up on them.

[Renzy]

(02-08-2019 07:37 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

So I was re-organising some shooting related stuff and digging through my old ammo storage unit which was basically a re-purposed bar fridge with a latch riveted to it.

In poor form I've mostly been using the ammo I bought last since the old stuff took some digging to get to, however during the course of examining it all I realized it was an interesting case study (no pun intended) on my storage technique and how the factory packaging fared over time.

...

As an aside I found a baggie of 22lr+dry dirt and bark chips where I'd dropped a box and had to hastily scoop up the rounds along with everything else that came with them. It had fallen to the back of the bar-fridge behind another box and I'd forgotten all about it. Amazingly they were in better condition than the manky box.

Is the ammo fridge in the basement? I run a dehumidifier in ours just to help keep moisture levels down. It sounds like the bark chips may have helped keep things dry. Amazon has silicon gel desiccants for pretty cheap and I've seen that recommended for storing moisture prone items too

[Leonard D Neubache]

An attached garage for the most part. I keep the ammo I use more regularly in another container inside so I rarely accessed the fridge. I would occasionally check one of the smaller 50 round boxes for corrosion on the assumption that they would fare more poorly and since they were fine I never bothered to check the rest, especially because the fridge was pretty much air tight. A cheap lesson all told.

[Oberrheiner]

(02-08-2019 08:33 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  

For those that live in places where you are not allowed guns, like myself, buy tools that can double as guns - the more portable the better.

What are you thinking about, crossbow ?

(02-08-2019 09:11 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

There's not much payout for carefully cleaning 22lr ammunition. The juice is just not worth the squeeze. Really I should just toss those rubbish rounds but I can't bring myself to throw away functional ammo, no matter how shit it appears.

Wouldn't a headshot at 20 yards be fatal even with 22lr ?

Yeah, I know not much about guns except those I shot in a military context, they were great but unobtainium here.

[ilostabet]

Don't know if crossbows are legal in Portugal, tbh. I was talking more about stuff like this:

[Richard Turpin]

(02-08-2019 08:33 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  

Buy Gold and Silver. Always keep some with you (perhaps even in a bag around your neck), some in your house (between several places), some buried somewhere near you (several places within walking distance) and some buried further away (several places within driving distance). Find a way to keep the coordinates of where you buried it so you don't forget, but in a way that is not obvious to anyone but you.

For those that live in places where you are not allowed guns, like myself, buy tools that can double as guns - the more portable the better.

It's just occurred to me that if Gold & Silver become as important as many think they will become, it will be soon be ESSENTIAL that folk get quickly acquainted with all the various ways of testing the legitimacy of any traded Gold & Silver!

At this point in time, most people won't have a clue. By the time everyone gets real savvy, a lot of people will have been conned out of all their wealth one way or another.

Just a quick duckduckgo brings up several 'home-testing' scenarios. Weight, 'ping' (sound), 'magnet' tests. People will need to develop a reliable nose for what's real and fake as fast as possible so as to hit the ground running. Knowing at least one quick and easy test might be a real good idea. I'm guessing all those pirates in old movies bit into their gold pieces for a darned good reason!

[roberto]

(02-08-2019 10:24 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  

Don't know if crossbows are legal in Portugal, tbh. I was talking more about stuff like this:

How the fuck does a pickaxe double as a gun? It's one of the worst weapons for self defense too- unwieldy, unbalanced and hard to carry.

[ilostabet]

I probably didn't explain it well. I said "double as", but it's not supposed to replace or be used as a gun. And it probably won't matter much if you have to use it against a group of 'youths'. It just highlights how fucked people are when they can't own guns to defend themselves. Still good to have something. At least you go down swinging - literally.

I do agree the pick axe is not great, but it was just an example. I own a regular axe similar to the above though.

[DJ-Matt]

I've kept all my ammo indoors usually the closet or in my bed's headboard, so far all of it is fine after over 5 years.

[Oberrheiner]

(02-08-2019 10:24 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  

That's mostly useful if you know how to throw them

I can't do that, but some russian friends of mine trained that on the job out of boredom, they got pretty good at it lol.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Portuguese gun laws are similar to Australian ones it seems, but for ex-pats living there or former criminals it could be hard to obtain a gun legally.

ilostabet, if you can begin the process of getting a license then I suggest you do so immediately. There is no substitute for a firearm in a dicey situation. Yes, the process is a long pain in the ass, but the sooner you start the sooner it's done. Just go through the motions of pretending to give a shit about the "sport". I guarantee you half of the guys at the sports shooting clubs are in the same boat.

[ilostabet]

You're right. I never looked into it seriously but I will. Thanks.

[ChicagoFire]

Even when you live in a "remote" location crime still can happen. Youtuber SomersInAlaska apparently got burglarized in Alaska. Definitely be on good terms with your neighbors. There's also some pretty good home defense videos on youtube.

[Tail Gunner]

(01-13-2019 09:27 PM)Thersites Wrote:  

Additional information from internet, search for anything by Selco, Bosnian War Survivor, as he gives his practical knowledge based on his experiences. The blog from his website shtfschool.org has been wipe, but archive.org copy is still attainable. You can find some of his writing here from the Organic Prepper.

Another good site that been around for long time is Survival Blog, and for those looking into more sensible advice and experience with economic meltdown in place like Argentine, another good resource is http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/ by Fernando “FerFAL” Aguirre. He has book by the same name in print if you want a copy.

Yes, many people in this thread are trying to reinvent the wheel, when they can garner first-hand experience regarding what really works -- and what does not -- when a society collapses. For example, Fernando “FerFAL” Aguirre wrote a book entitled "The Modern Survival Manual," which is based on his first-hand experience during the 2001 economic collapse in Argentina. I have not read it, but 70% of all reviewers gave it five stars on Amazon. The point is that seeking out people with actual experience surviving a societal collapse is the first place to start.

https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-M...9870563457

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(02-08-2019 10:14 AM)Oberrheiner Wrote:  

Wouldn't a headshot at 20 yards be fatal even with 22lr ?

Wouldn't a headshot at any distance be fatal regardless of ammunition?