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Ringo in Italy
#51

Ringo in Italy

@bucky
I don't think game necessarily works against you. However, blatant displays of dominance definitely do. If you're going to use game, it has to be more subtle and nuanced, almost as if you're the friendly guy, who just so happens to be pretty confident and funny.
In addition, the language barrier is what kills most guys. I think that's why there are no bootcamps in Italy. Approach a girl with English or A2 level Italian and she'll give you a friendly smile at best.

@Ringo
Interesting reading your diary. To be honest, I think that some of the dullness you encountered can be avoided by just choosing a bigger city. The excitement of a small city will die out very quickly, once you understand the liits of what it has to offer. In a city like Rome there are way more interesting people.
If I had to choose a place in Europe where the people have the highest amounts of peak happiness with genuine laughs etc. it would probably be Spain and of course mainly their big cities because of how diversified they are.
A small city will always disappoint, unless you're super lucky.
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#52

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (08-08-2018 04:08 AM)Ringo Wrote:  

Update:

My process is done and my citizenship has been recognized in early July. It took about 50 days from the submission of my application until receiving a letter that said that my birth certificate had been transcribed in the local records (legally, this is when you are recognized as Italian). The Citizenship office was very efficient; the only reason it took "so long" was because my residency application took 40 days to be green lit.

I was out of Italy for a couple of weeks travelling and just returned, so I couldn't follow through with requesting my documents (ID, passport, etc), which I'll do now. I estimate that I'll be all set by late September and can leave Italy then.

Travelling for the past few weeks with friends was a much needed mental refreshment. Honestly, I'd forgotten what it's like to go out, game girls and have fun with buddies. Despite a little game rust, I banged a hot new Swiss French chick and ended my dry spell.

Before travelling, I was under the impression that I needed to put more effort in and that my location is hard. Looking at things now, I know for a fact that I'm the problem. More specifically, my mind and inner game are the issues.

At this point, for whatever reason, I simply don't have fun going out solo and it shows. Rust aside, my game is sharper than ever, but when I'm not having fun when going out I get very insecure, barely approach and my vibe is off. This was clear when I went out with my friends abroad. I'm not at a point where my game is on 24/7 (hopefully I'll get there in the future), so right now the motivation from having fun with friends is essential to me. One friend that I met in this trip I'm sure would do well here - he's extremely social and literally talks to anyone that gives him a second. That's just not my style though.

I still think the talent in this city is very good, but again, unless you're putting in the effort, you won't see any results. Unlike other places I've been to, nothing here will fall on your lap and nobody here will start a conversation with you or try to befriend you out of their own will - you have to get after it. Leaving this town and seeing my friends again, I realized how much this place slowly crippled me mentally.You

I'm now in the process of updating my CV and researching my next step. The goal would be to move out of Italy in late Sep/early Oct and head to another European country to get a job for 6-12 months. Depending on the feedback I receive to my applications, I'm also considering a one month backpacking trip somewhere in Eastern Europe or maybe Russia. I don't want to push my funds too much though, so I'll wait and see what happens.

Congratulations Ringo.

You have now a new world of opportunities in all the EU and can travel to many other countries with no visa. Being free to live and work anywhere in the EU is a great opportunity, Enjoy!
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#53

Ringo in Italy

Congrats Ringo! Great to hear you got your citizenship, and got out of the dry spell/social funk.

I'm not sure what your professional background is but from the sounds of things you're fluent in at least English and Portuguese, with probably working Italian at this stage as well? You should be able to get a customer support job in tech with those languages pretty easily in any of the big tech hubs in Europe - Amsterdam/Dublin/London being the big three. It would be boring work but well paid, and you'd be working almost entirely with people under 35 - so would slot into a pretty active social network very easily. Plus all of those cities are well connected for weekends away elsewhere in Europe while you're here. It wouldn't be the worst way to spend 12 months.
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#54

Ringo in Italy

Thanks guys.

Quote: (08-08-2018 08:22 AM)zatara Wrote:  

I'm not sure what your professional background is but from the sounds of things you're fluent in at least English and Portuguese, with probably working Italian at this stage as well? You should be able to get a customer support job in tech with those languages pretty easily in any of the big tech hubs in Europe - Amsterdam/Dublin/London being the big three. It would be boring work but well paid, and you'd be working almost entirely with people under 35 - so would slot into a pretty active social network very easily. Plus all of those cities are well connected for weekends away elsewhere in Europe while you're here. It wouldn't be the worst way to spend 12 months.

Correct, plus French and German at conversational level, although a bit rusty. I have a good brain for languages, so I'm confident I could improve those two in a couple of months of dedicated practice.

I've never thought about customer support. I don't even know where to start, but I'll do my research. To be honest, I'm just now slowly starting to look into work opportunities. Broadly speaking my background is in Communications, which presents me with vast possibilities.

Right now I'm looking for work in Switzerland (local contacts + good salaries), but Amsterdam is also on the list.
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#55

Ringo in Italy

Not to rain on Ringo's parade of course, but it's mind boggling that in Italy you can get a citizenship in 50 days without having lived there for several years beforehand and with no knowledge whatsoever of the language.

Tells a lot about the absolute decrepit state of the country...
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#56

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (08-09-2018 11:52 PM)randomA Wrote:  

Not to rain on Ringo's parade of course, but it's mind boggling that in Italy you can get a citizenship in 50 days without having lived there for several years beforehand and with no knowledge whatsoever of the language.

Tells a lot about the absolute decrepit state of the country...

Technically speaking, if you're entitled to an Italian citizenship through ius sanguinis (right of blood), you don't become Italian. You've always been Italian. The reason why it's so fast is that you just need the Government to officially recognize you as an Italian citizen.

I do agree with you though, and I expect the legislation to change in the near future - hence why I decided to do it now.
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#57

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (08-09-2018 11:52 PM)randomA Wrote:  

Not to rain on Ringo's parade of course, but it's mind boggling that in Italy you can get a citizenship in 50 days without having lived there for several years beforehand and with no knowledge whatsoever of the language.

Tells a lot about the absolute decrepit state of the country...

That 50-day path to citizenship is only applicable to bloodline citizens (descendents of Italian emigrants). They're predominantly Christians from South America and the US, i.e. exactly the kind of immigrants the country needs if it's going to address its fertility rate crisis. If anything, there should be some kind of assistance program to bring them in.

Without any familial or bloodline connection to an Italian citizen, it takes a very long time - over 10 years for EU nationals and 15+ for others.
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#58

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (08-09-2018 11:52 PM)randomA Wrote:  

Not to rain on Ringo's parade of course, but it's mind boggling that in Italy you can get a citizenship in 50 days without having lived there for several years beforehand and with no knowledge whatsoever of the language.

Tells a lot about the absolute decrepit state of the country...

Because we are based on ius sanguinis. There is no limitation on how many generations back you can go (apart from the actual date the state was formed obviously). Therefore even if you have a great-great-grandfather that was Italian you are still entitled to citizenship.
When you meet Argentinian, Venezuelan or Brazilians that live in Europe most of the time they have Italian or Spanish citizenship thanks to this law, even if they don't speak the language or know anything about the culture.

On the other hand people born in Italy, but from foreign parents, are not entitled to citizenship until they are 18.
They might feel and grow with Italian values, but they are just long term residents for the law.

@ringo I don't think anything is going to change soon, especially with the current government and political climate.
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#59

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (08-09-2018 09:04 AM)Ringo Wrote:  

Correct, plus French and German at conversational level, although a bit rusty. I have a good brain for languages, so I'm confident I could improve those two in a couple of months of dedicated practice.

I've never thought about customer support. I don't even know where to start, but I'll do my research. To be honest, I'm just now slowly starting to look into work opportunities. Broadly speaking my background is in Communications, which presents me with vast possibilities.

Right now I'm looking for work in Switzerland (local contacts + good salaries), but Amsterdam is also on the list.

If you can get a proper career job in Switzerland then it'll be far less boring than customer support, and pay much better. Be aware Switzerland isn't exactly known for its vibrant nightlife though. I'd say after your months in social purgatory in Italy you might be happier in a sociable city with lots of nightlife, even if it means earning a bit less.

Customer support in big tech firms like Google/Facebook is just a good easy "gap year" type option that I've known other Brazilians/Portuguese/Spaniards etc who speak a few languages to take. They're easy jobs to get if someone has a college degree and multiple languages, it lets them move to Northern Europe, get paid reasonably well, and have a ready made social life in a big city for a year or two. Its meant to be boring as hell work mind you, but thats the trade off.

(I've never worked in customer support but have worked for tech firms. The customer support staff parties are always the ones to go to - its the only department other than HR that is usually heavily female, and its staff are usually much younger and more single).
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#60

Ringo in Italy

@ius sanguinis.

And that's ridiculous.
Forget about all the issues of population drop etc., it still makes little sense (from a rational/fairness point of view) that ius sanguinis can go back beyond 1 or 2 generation all the way to several generations before. Imagine for example those original italian emigrants that did not reproduced among themselves but diluted "their blood" so much over time that their progeny has nothing whatsoever to do with italians...
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#61

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (08-12-2018 08:54 PM)randomA Wrote:  

@ius sanguinis.

And that's ridiculous.
Forget about all the issues of population drop etc., it still makes little sense (from a rational/fairness point of view) that ius sanguinis can go back beyond 1 or 2 generation all the way to several generations before. Imagine for example those original italian emigrants that did not reproduced among themselves but diluted "their blood" so much over time that their progeny has nothing whatsoever to do with italians...

So what is your preferred system?

The government is supposed to serve its citizens exclusively, not anyone else. A pure bloodright (ius sanguinis) system would ensure that their vote cannot be diluted by government policy, as is happening in Germany, the UK and other formerly-European countries.

It also ensures that if immigrants want their children to become citizens, they'll do everything to ensure that they integrate and marry a local citizen instead of forming ghettos.

Edit: I'm not completely against some kind of limit to the number of generations, but if the country needs immigrants, skilled workers (not 'cultural enrichers') and its diaspora are the most acceptible.
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#62

Ringo in Italy

I would say maximum to 2 generations.
Otherwise you would have to prove origins / certificates of all the rest of the family tree. In sum, make it really hard for those people who try to apply claiming a right that goes beyond 2 generations.

the diaspora is OK up to a point. If you look at "italian"-americans in the US that are already even 2nd generation, they absolutely have nothing to share anymore with italy. i bet this is the same even with nowadays much wider populations such as asian-americans.
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#63

Ringo in Italy

Congratulations!
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#64

Ringo in Italy

Quick update:

Just got home from the police station. It was for a good reason, though: had to pick up my brand new passport. [Image: smile.gif]

This marks the unofficial end of my mission here.

Back in page one I estimated that it would take me 6 months to reach this point. Here we are, five and a half months later, and I'm finally done.

I'm leaving Italy next week, so I'll use that opportunity to do a deeper review of my time here. For now, suffice to say I'm very happy to be leaving!
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#65

Ringo in Italy

What's next?
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#66

Ringo in Italy

I'm glad you accomplished your mission, Ringo.

I agree Italy can be tough, unforgiving and overall just not worth it women-wise, especially for someone coming from Brazil.

Best of luck for the future
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#67

Ringo in Italy

This will be my last post from Italy. Honestly, it won't be a mindblowing read, but I feel like I should put an ending to this saga.

I can hardly believe it's been six months since I've left Brazil.

My stint here in Italy has been a huge success in some ways, and a bitter failure in others. This has been my first time living abroad in a place where I knew literally no one before arriving and I've learned a lot from this experience.

Italian regions can be very particular, but for privacy reasons, I'll just say that I was living in Northeastern Italy.

Good stuff first...

I have accomplished my #1 goal: I've been recognized as an Italian citizen and, thus, an EU citizen. I now hold two passports, each of which has its own benefits and opens up doors around the world both for travelling and long-term living. If nothing else came out of this whole thing, I'd be happy to have accomplished this goal.

Getting all the documents for the citizenship application, translating it and organizing it was laborious. I even had to travel to pick shit up in person because one of the documents I needed was in a small town and the records department didn't reply via email nor phone.

But that being said, all I had to do (after finding a residence) was fill out some application forms and wait. Nothing was contested or had to be reviewed. I sat on my thumb for two months and received a letter saying it was done. I heard at lot about Italian bureaucracy before getting here and after arriving, but coming from Brazil, it wasn't that bad. I'm glad I didn't pay a consultant to run the process for me.

I enjoyed the experience of living in a place where the speed of things is so different from a megalopolis like my hometown of São Paulo. Europe in general has a slower pace than what I'm used to, but that's even more evident when you go to mid-size or small cities. (I enjoyed the experience, but honestly the boredom was greater than the reward.)

This period was a great opportunity to experience European life. You can drive as little as a couple of hours and end up in a place with a language, culture and people very different from where you started - I love that. And as much as there are cons to the EU as it is structured, travelling within Schengen is very practical and comfortable.

Another plus is I've managed to learn conversational Italian despite my lack of effort in studying it regularly - I mostly watched movies with Italian subtitles, looked up words on Google Translate and tried to talk to people for an hour or two a day.

Lastly, I must say that I've learned a lot about self-reliance, making friends and dealing with loneliness during my time here.

As I stated above, I've been living in a place where I knew literally no one and had never set foot in previous to my arrival.

Honestly, making friends was much, much harder than I thought it would be, which brings me to my least favorite parts about the last few months.

Let me preface this by saying that, first and foremost, I take full responsibility over the issues below. I would do some things differently should I start over again, but I recognize that my behavior was the biggest component of what I consider to be a fail in integrating.

To get started: women wise, this trip was an absolute failure. It was a perfect storm of me (initially) not speaking Italian, them not speaking English, social circles being tight, nightlife being very limited, and me eventually giving up on gaming.

To a certain degree, those are also the same things that made making male friendships here difficult.

Here's what you have to understand:

- The majority of Italians - especially outside big cities like Milan, Florence or Rome - don't know English. This is less true for younger people, but still applies.
- Out of those who have some knowledge, few are capable of, or open to, having a conversation in English.
- Italians are passionate, short-tempered and often rude. Other than maybe France, I've never been to a country where people are so unwilling to be a little patient and understanding with you as a foreigner. This also goes if you are trying to learn the language. There is no positive reinforcement. You are expected to simply know Italian, or you run the risk of being shouted at and ridiculed (had it happen to me many times).
- Socializing and having free time are very valuable in Italian culture. Most people have long term friendships, and meet with friends and family at least a couple times a week (for some it's a daily activity). People are very social, but only within their circle, which they have been building and keeping for their whole lives.
- Generally speaking, Northern Italians are colder than the Southern. They are more stern, don't like to touched, don't like PDA, etc.
- Alcohol is a HUGE part of the culture.

Put together in the context of a small or mid-size town, these factors result in an atmosphere that makes socializing very difficult if you are a foreigner (even more so if you don't drink).

I tried going out solo at night, but there weren't many options available and most of them were sit down bars where everyone is in their little circle, and after interacting with you for a moment, go right back into it. Clubs were few and a far cry from the ones I frequented in SP.

The language barrier and brashness of some people here, even when running simple errands during the day, would really rub me the wrong way and leave a bad taste in my mouth, which over time killed my mojo.

Although I've travelled for long periods by myself, this time I couldn't get a good vibe going when rolling solo.

I tried befriending other foreigners, like expats and University exchange students. But I was in an atypical situation here - because I was a foreigner requesting a citizenship, I couldn't legally work; and since i already had an University degree, I had no interest in enrolling in a long term course. The students mostly socialized among each other, and the expats were older and I didn't feel like I fit in (I'm mid twenties, they are 35+).

Even the guys I met through martial arts, and who I got along with quite well, wouldn't invite me out or want to hang out too much outside practice.

I focused on improving my Italian skills so I could day game. When my Italian finally got up to speed and I was able to hod conversations (maybe 6 weeks ago), I realized that most people I would meet and the girls I'd talk to were boring as shit (I'm sure many guys who have traveled and lived abroad can relate). Most guys were as dull, if not worse, and I more often than not felt the opposite of an "abundance mentality". Everybody wanted to protect their territory.

I was frustrated and felt alone. I started hanging out more and more in my apartment and avoided going out. During August, my weightlifting gym and martial arts gym were closed for summer break (probably 30% of businesses were closed during that time, crazy), and some of my local buddies were out of town too, which only made it worse.

I know myself well enough to know that locking myself up at home is dangerous for my mood, but I couldn't help it. I couldn't muster the energy to go out, inevitably spend money and, if everything went according to plan, meet someone that would bore me to tears.

A few weeks ago I decided I would leave as soon as I got everything in order, and from then on I really gave up on following any leads and approaching.

Luckily, during these months I had the chance to do some travelling here and there and got a few bangs that kept me sane, but while in town I was basically an incel.

Interestingly enough, this weekend was my last here, so I organized a little aperitivo to say goodbye to everyone I'd befriended during my stay. I almost didn't follow through with it - I was just so let down by everyone and, especially, by my own weakness in basically "giving up".

To my shock, many people showed up and the hugs and love they gave me when we said goodbye for a last time was incredible.

That's when I realized that I wasn't doing anything properly wrong, I was just in a path that would still take a while to work out. I did make good friends, but even though I was open to them from day one, they were still getting accustomed to me four or five months in.

As I look back, I can see that this part of the world just has a different speed and a level of resistance to everyone and everything - be it food, culture, music, technology (plenty of people still use brick phones!).

Should I have stayed here for another six or twelve months, I'm confident that I would be integrated well, have a couple of good friends and maybe a local girlfriend.

If I could go back in time, I would have studied the language more and been more insistent and aggressive (in a good way) inviting people to hang out, eat, etc. I wanted to respect their space and culture, so I let it all happen at their pace. Would it have worked? Not sure, but I would feel better if I had tried it. You live and you learn.

I'd also have waited out more and not chosen the apartment I did to live in. This place depressed the hell out of me for a number of reasons, the bed wrecked my back, and my stinky flatmate, although nice and polite to an extreme, was absolutely disgusting to live with.

All in all, I'm very happy to be leaving. At this point in my life, if I'm going to invest in a town for a few years, I'd like it to have combination of good business/job potential, family or friends nearby, and good girls. This area doesn't really excel at any of those.

Tomorrow I leave Europe to visit my family. I haven't seen them in a year, so I'm excited to stay with them for a while, and from there I will figure out my next steps. Come back to Europe? Head to Brazil? Not sure yet - I'll let that simmer in my head for a while.

So, to conclude - would I ever come back to this place, or would I recommend it to anyone?

Despite the many negatives I've mentioned, I should point out that this would be a great area, in my opinion, to settle down and raise kids. For a young single guy... not so much.

Food is fresh and amazing, and the balance between work and free time is very skewed towards living an enjoyable life. There's a great sense of community and most people have lifelong, fulfilling friendships.

Because of its geographical location, this area has a great mix of Germanic, Eastern European and Italian, and girls are quite beautiful. Diet and exercise are a problem, but as long as you make a good pick, I see potential - divorce rates are increasing but Italy is still very conservative in regards to marriage and women tend to stick to their husbands.

Climate-wise, it's also quite nice year round. And within a few hours by car or train, you can be at a beach in Croatia, the Alps bordering Switzerland, some great lakes and parks in Slovenia, or nice towns in Central Italy.

The TLDR version is: come only if you already know, or will learn, Italian. And if you are willing to spend at least one year here. Definitely don't come for easy bangs.

It's funny how things pan out.

I thought I'd make a killing with girls and live a debaucherous few months abroad while I figured out my future.

Instead, I burned through much more money than I thought I would, became a quasi-incel, killed my swagger, made some friends - and the citizenship itself, which I thought would be an impossible mission, was a walk in the park.

I come out more resilient, experienced and appreciative of my friends, family and life. I can't wait to use this knowledge and see where it leads me.

Thank you for following this journey.
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#68

Ringo in Italy

Interesting post - thanks for updating us on how the adventure panned out.

If the negatives of your stay are getting to you at all I'd try and focus above all else on the fact that you've just gotten yourself an EU passport, which is either the most valuable or joint most valuable passport you can have on the planet. It should make a huge difference to not only your life, but the lives of any future wife or kids you have too.

Even if you had achieved literally nothing else with your 6 months in Italy (which doesn't sound to have been the case) it would have been a worthwhile price to pay to get the EU passport.
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#69

Ringo in Italy

Valuable thread for sure! The difficulties you encountered are hardly surprising though, since you chose to live in a fringe city. Those issues are pretty common elsewhere in Europe too in small cities, but Northern Italy is about as bad as it gets haha.
But congrats on EU membership and enjoy the rest of the ride!
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#70

Ringo in Italy

Portuguese/brazilian, is mostly Portuguese with an Italian flavour... should have not been hard for OP to master the language if he had put in at least a bit of effort.
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#71

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (09-12-2018 08:47 AM)Rocha Wrote:  

Portuguese/brazilian, is mostly Portuguese with an Italian flavour... should have not been hard for OP to master the language if he had put in at least a bit of effort.

True. Speakers of either Portuguese/Spanish/Italian usually have about a B1 of each respective language by default, but the Brazilian pronunciation is so different that at times it can be difficult to connect the dots
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#72

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (09-12-2018 08:47 AM)Rocha Wrote:  

Portuguese/brazilian, is mostly Portuguese with an Italian flavour... should have not been hard for OP to master the language if he had put in at least a bit of effort.

Agreed. It's actually fascinating to see how much Brazilian Portuguese and our way of speaking, especially in São Paulo, was influenced by the large amount of Italian immigrants who came to Brazil over the last 150 years. Old Italians and old Paulistanos sound pretty close.
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#73

Ringo in Italy

Ringo this is amazing to read. In 3 days I am moving to Italy for 4 months for university. I will take everything you wrote here into account - it will not be an easy time but I will be in a big student city so let’s hope it’s the best Italy has to offer for a young single guy like me. I’m gonna be so fked not knowing Italian, I can already feel the Italians shouting at me, they really have no patience
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#74

Ringo in Italy

Quote: (09-13-2018 03:43 PM)Mikestar Wrote:  

Ringo this is amazing to read. In 3 days I am moving to Italy for 4 months for university. I will take everything you wrote here into account - it will not be an easy time but I will be in a big student city so let’s hope it’s the best Italy has to offer for a young single guy like me. I’m gonna be so fked not knowing Italian, I can already feel the Italians shouting at me, they really have no patience

What city you going to be in?
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#75

Ringo in Italy

Turin
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