[Samseau]

Quote:

Japan/Korea, considering that they have far more in common culturally with China than the West, may at best be neutral.

Bad assumption. All of these parties hate each other and will resume killing each other as soon as America is out of the picture.

[CaptainChardonnay]

Sino-Japanese War

[Arado]

Or they could realize that China is more powerful and it's better to bandwagon with the local hegemon rather than oppose it and risk destruction. These countries are simply not large enough to oppose China on their own once China realizes its potential.

Not to mention that Koreans hate Japanese more than they hate Chinese.

[Lunostrelki]

(04-20-2017 04:32 AM)Arado Wrote:  

Or they could realize that China is more powerful and it's better to bandwagon with the local hegemon rather than oppose it and risk destruction. These countries are simply not large enough to oppose China on their own once China realizes its potential.

Not to mention that Koreans hate Japanese more than they hate Chinese.

Northeast Asia's conflicts are almost entirely political.

The mutual, nationally charged Japanese/Koreans/Chinese hate is a rather recent historical phenomenon and it's actually rather flimsy. Anyone from any of those countries who is even slightly in tune with their culture knows that the three countries have a shared heritage and worldview. Most urbane Chinese people may not like Japan due to WWII, but few actually despise Japanese culture and even less so Japanese products. Tons of Chinese tourists going to Japan and singing its praises. Likewise the beef with Koreans is mostly that they're insubordinate and claim all of Asia's inventions for themselves, not that they are evil foreigners.

From what I know the Japanese are generally ignorant of China and for the longest time put it in the box of poor countries to be ignored. More recently people are seeing and recognizing the material progress that's been made along the PRC coast, and more to the point Japanese themselves have been loyal practitioners of classical Chinese leaning. Japan may be wary about PRC Chinese but Taiwan has always been popular.

[Enigma]

(04-17-2017 08:14 AM)Arado Wrote:  

Are you sure? If you look at the international test score results, the Chinese far outperform Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Vietnam does ok but still lags China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_...#PISA_2015

I'm talking about overseas Chinese. Most of them are not being educated in mainland China, they're being educated in the country that they're living in, using the same schools, more or less, as the ethnic majority.

And school systems are what the PISA measures, not raw/genetic intelligence, hence the reason predominantly Chinese states like Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and Singapore score higher than the mainland.

Also, you should take a look at how China gathers their scores.

Their 2015 scores only measured students from Shanghai, Guangdong, Beijing, and Jiangsu. Those are the richest provinces in the country and only make up 230 million of the country's 1.3+ billion total population.

In short, China only measures the most affluent students from the largest cities.

In 2012, they only measured Shanghai. And their scores were about 50 to 80 points higher than the mainland.

Let's put that into perspective for a minute. Simply adding three other rich Chinese provinces to the average dropped Shanghai's scores by 50+ points in every category.

If Shanghai was 613 but the average of the four provinces was 531 in mathematics, how low are those other provinces' scores? They would have to be at least 100 points lower to drag the average down that dramatically.

That'd put them right on part with most of Southeast Asia.

Now, what would happen if you included the other 1 billion Chinese, measuring the total population, as countries like the US do? How about if we average the 300+ million Chinese living in extreme poverty with the 230 million in those four provinces?

This all supports my point, which is that ethnic Chinese, as a whole, are not that much genetically smarter than the natives of many Southeast Asian countries. Yes, there is an IQ difference, but it's not significant enough to account for 1% Chinese owning such incredible 50 to 99% wealth in some of these countries.

Even looking at the PISA scores that we have, China and Vietnam are roughly on part, yet the 1% Chinese in Vietnam own over 40% of the wealth, and it was at high as 80% in the 70s.

[Fortis]

I'm with Enigma on this. It takes massive cognitive dissonance to live here and not see that they're no better than any other race of people. Again, this "china is taking over the world" is a massive bit of propaganda. I think a lot of them taking over 99% of countries in some cases is because they come in, throw money at local warlords to get seemingly innocuous things and then end up owning all the important industries down the line because they were playing chess when the warlord was playing checkers. That's an old, old game that doesn't take a massively high IQ to play when you're playing against warlords and corrupt officials in SEA and Africa.

Right now, did you know, that china is undergoing a massive fertility problem? This is why they're having such a big push to generate cloning and genome therapy. Dudes all over China are unable to get their girls pregnant due to pollution and stress (lol worker's rights lozlozlzo wuts dat).

I simply don't see myself as inferior to chinese people. The playing field is largely leveled if you look at their top tier city, but I think your average chinese dude from a backwater village would perform just as poorly as some average ghetto american teen.

Let's also remember that china is notorious for cheating on many tests. This is such a big problem that most serious scholarly publication don't even really accept papers from Chinese institutions since it's largely going to be bullshit that can't be replicated outside of the Chinese labs.

Where do you think this big push for Traditionurrrrr chinese medicine is coming from? Did you think westerners really gave a shit about that? It's all Chinese government funded to try and make their medicine not look like the sham that it is.

I'm not trying to shame china, but I do not think they're superior to the west by birth and I think they have a long way to go before they're a massive military threat.

I do think they're naturally "higher IQ" than some other groups, but I don't that matters as much in the face of their autistic governing style and totalitarian regime that sees everything as an "insult to the chinese peoplerrrrrrr."

[Liberty Sea]

Quote:

I do think they're naturally "higher IQ" than some other groups, but I don't that matters as much in the face of their autistic governing style and totalitarian regime that sees everything as an "insult to the chinese peoplerrrrrrr."

1. You may laugh at it all you want, but in the end such attitudes make them more likely to survive than the current attitude we have in the West.

2. As for the Chinese government, in China, “a person with Barack Obama’s pre-presidential professional experience would not even be the manager of a small county in China’s system.”

From what I can gather, the Chinese system operate with a mixture of nepostism and meritocracy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-a-b...80502.html
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2...121790?o=0

At any rate, it gets things done.

(05-02-2014 09:49 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

I won't get into the fine analysis that Samseau has posted above, but I'll just add one reason for believing in China over USA: China is good at decision-making.

The USA has never been in such a political paralysis before, with a record number of filibusters and complete disunity where everyone is just interested in stuffing their pockets (to a lesser or bigger degree).

Meanwhile, the Chinese government efficiently passes whatever measures it needs. Fiscal stimulus? Done in a few days. Direct and indirect subsidies for green energy industry? Established before you can blink. Deciding to develop a 5th generation fighter? Project created. Build an important dam, railroad or airport? No decades wasted on permits, ecological studies, protests and lobbies.

Sure, China might be polluted and its officials prone to corruption, but it gets shit done. It's one of the rare points of light in being a ruthless communist dictatorship. Its decisions might be saddled with corruption, but it's better than having to wait 5-10 years for each decision to be made at all (just look at Obamacare - you might like or not like it, but it took almost a decade to be passed - how efficient is that?).

Unless almost all decisions made by China turn out to be suicidal and almost all decisions made by the USA turn out to be masterstrokes, I can't see the USA coming out on top unless serious changes are made in its governance. And I can't see such changes anywhere on the horizon either.

3. As for pollution, the Chinese government is switching to cleaner energy and encouraging mass bike-sharing scheme. Other countries have done this, but the Chinese have a rare ability to do it in mass-scale.

My impression is that they have a decisive, practical leadership that can do what needs to be done.

4. Talks of China being ethnically replaced or globalized seem baseless to me.
The Chinese people like the Jews because they want to rule like the Jews, not to be ruled by the Jews.
The educational policy of the Chinese government is precisely the very antithesis of globalistic education - it is called patriotic education. It drills into the mind of impressional youngsters the concept of "national humiliation", referring to the two recent centuries when China was assaulted and humiliated by the West, and Japan. As a result, the Chinese people are extremely jingoistic and xenophobic.

Quote:

http://thediplomat.com/2014/11/a-glimpse...tionalism/
These extreme protests and general anti-Japan sentiment have been linked to China’s education system. In the wake of the 1989 student-led Tiananmen Square uprising, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) launched its “Patriotic Education Campaign.” It shifted from emphasis on the triumphs of socialism and class struggle, to focusing attention on the atrocities inflicted by foreign enemies during the “Century of Humiliation” spanning from the 1839 Opium War through the particularly bloody Japanese invasion of WWII. The 2012 protests suggested Chinese leaders had perhaps too successfully molded their citizens into rabid nationalists, which could potentially force their hand in escalating to war.

To the male human being, humiliation is worst, most unendurable feelings. Hence the feeling of humiliation has tremendous driving/motivational force. Which made Chinese men much more nationalistic than women. But the women are also far more patriotic than their Western counterparts. The teen girls have the slogan: "No idols before country".
America 100 years ago was racist as fuck, but the common people were hardly as united as the Chinese are in the face of foreign element.

Our Local Chinese expats have a good idea of what this solidarity is like:

(08-05-2014 08:16 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

*BIG WARNING* Do not fight in China. I am placing this at the top of the list without a number for a huge reason. Fighting in China, while not a big deal like it is in much of the West, is not something a "laowai" can participate in. Unless you are ethnically Chinese, never attempt to fight someone in China. What happens is what China expats call "Getting Surrounded". Chinese are extremely xenophobic and hateful of laowai. If you fight with one, you will QUICKLY get surrounded by Chinese people, looking to join in kicking your ass. Chinese are nosy, and never help strangers, unless it is a laowai vs. another Chinese brother. If you are lucky he will shout a bunch of SB (sha bi which means Stupid cunt) nonsense, and maybe a policeman can break it up and no one gets into trouble. Do not think you can fight 100 small Chinese people either. Even if you can, you are still going to jail unfairly, visa revoked or sent back to your country. Maybe even both.

This is the most dangerous of probably all situations that are possible in China. There are 2 kinds of laowai in China. The ones that have been surrounded and the ones going to be surrounded. Don't hard bump, trip, or push a line cutter or other person while walking around. If you bump into someone say "dui bu qi" (means sorry) or something to that effect.

The problem is that most Chinese there feel as if the government treats laowai like kings, and let us get away with all kinds of shit. (Simply not true) They know that they are not supposed to touch us, or else get into a lot of trouble, but the reality is that, some of them feel pissed off enough to fight back at us, as if we are some great enemy. Expect to be called white devil, black devil, etc. by SB Chinese at some point (in mandarin of course) If they verbally attack you in English, you might laugh at their terrible English, but avoid doing that. They say dumb shit like "This is CHINA!" "5000 years of civilization yada yada stuff...". The best advice simply put is "AVOID ALL FORMS OF CONFLICT AT ALL COSTS!" Also never escalate anything. They may escalate stuff, to "save face", but be the bigger man and tone it down, move on. You have nothing to prove to them! So act like it and keep it moving.

... NEVER WHITE KNIGHT in China. Other Chinese men and women, won't help, so do not look at them to assist. Police sometimes break it up, but not often, it depends. Get out of the way and mind your own fucking business before he comes after you, causing you to get, YEP! SURROUNDED!!! "

In 2012, there were mass-scale anti-Japan protests all-over China. Have Americans ever protested on this scale concerning national interests?
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2012/0...na/100370/

Most recently, in the event of the installation of THAAD in South Korea, the Chinese people rose up in mass to protest and boycott South Korean products.
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/996723.shtml

Quote:

The hashtag "No idols before country" on Chinese social media Sina Weibo has been viewed more than 15 million times as of press time, with many saying they had un-followed the South Korean entertainers' Weibo accounts.

"Farewell, Big Bang, fried chicken, cosmetics made in South Korea, I love my country and there's no way I will contribute to the GDP of South Korea so that the country could buy weapons and use it against China," Sina Weibo user "Emily-Chun" wrote on Friday.

Quote:

http://www.tnp.sg/news/world/chinese-fan...sile-issue
Others posted emotional messages like "Farewell my oppas (Korean for big brothers), farewell (Korean variety show) Running Man and Lee Kwang Soo", "I think I cannot love you any more BigBang", and "G-Dragon, T.O.P, let's split up for a while".

Imagine Canada installs a Missile Defense System in the border with America, and American Justine Bieber fangirls unfollow him... in mass!

The force of Chinese is not only whipped up by the Chinese government, and not controlled by it. Chinese popular cultures express this nationalism aggressively. I've read tons of Chinese Internet Novels/Online Literature (chinese people like reading and writing novels, there is a huge, huge market for this in China, they probably have more writers than all the world combined). They are filled with nationalistic spirit. There are numerous popular novel in which a chinese protagonists go back in time, innovate the country, invade and assimilate other countries, genocide the Japanese, and enslave white people.
http://scienceinfo.net/tech/online-ficti...force.html

An excerpt from an web novel I read recently, which express a by no mean isolated sentiment:

Quote:

"In the middle of the nineteenth century, many people in the Lingnan province were used by Americans to build the western railways, and on cliffs where there were no firm foundation. In the unusually cold and snowy climate, one meter under the ground, who know how many Chinese workers bones were buried.

From the end of the eighteenth century to the beginning of the nineteenth century, the British colonial expansion in Malaysia, they used "go to Nanyang to dig Black Gold" as bait for Chinese workers and cheated them to Malaysia - an exploitation of their labor force. Chinese workers worked for the price of one hundred yuan paid for three year of debt slavery. The average death rate in Malaysian laborers is 50 percent, that is, of two people one would die.

In the twenty-first century, Lu Bu in the net looked at the historical data, inadvertently, saw the tragic experience of these laborers, then secretly swore, in the day the country becomes strong, he would sell those whites as slaves.

There exists a certain strain of white-antipathy in China, especially among the young males, and it's not only for historical reason, however right or wrong their impression of the West is. You can easily examples of such sentiment on the net. From the same novel above:

Quote:

"Looking over the world, almost all of the white people are smoking the blood of the Chinese people, the Chinese people work more than a dozen hours a day, and take one-tenth of the salary of those foreigners. Foreign trade and export prices are very cheap, the most annoying is a lot of Chinese people have their own goods exported to foreign countries and then sold back to the Chinese people, the price turned several times more expensive than sold to the white.

And those white people are getting ten times the salary of the Chinese people, working only a few hours a day, even in the outbreak of the financial crisis of the Greeks, they work only three days a week, only three hours a day. A week of their working hours can not even match to a Chinese day work. They enjoy the high welfare, coffee, sunlight, spring work, summer break, autumn strike, winter festivals, one year of their working is still less than what the Chinese people do in a month, they live so easy and comfortable, with what, with the globalization of the Chinese people working as their cattle and horse to produce cheap foreign trade goods."

That is a bit of a tangent, but the point to be made is, the government may have started and amplified the nationalism thing, but it get out of their hand fast. Now the common people themselves, as a cultural force, are in charge of this tremendous force of nationalism.

Quintus Curtius wrote an ROK article on China which said there is no social glue in modern China. He is wrong. Nationalism is that glue.

China is also aggressively recruiting male teachers to make boys men:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/07/world...s-men.html
"The history class began with a lesson on being manly."

5. The Chinese love the Jews, yes. But Chinese netizens also love Trumps. They even call him the God Emperor like we do over here:
http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/why-do-ch...ald-trump/

The Chinese also have no antipathy for Hitler. They love strong, cunning leaders who fight for their country's interests. That's why they love the Jews, Trump and even Hitler.
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and...t-dictator

In China, the Chinese equivalence of the manosphere would be the majority.

6. The Chinese are a pragmatic people. And currently they are more pragmatic than they have ever been, inspired by Deng Xiaoping's motto "It doesn't matter whether the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice". Young people don't need things like democracy in so far as their country is strong. Their preference for a political system is not based on moral imperative (the 'we must have democracy because it is right' sort of thinking), but on whether it's good and suitable for their country, whether it will lead their country ahead.
https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archiv...cy/277885/

7. As Enigma said, Shanghai is not representative of China. Not its high PISA-score, and also not its semi-cosmopolitanism or its birth-rate, or its attitude towards natalism. China won't get old before it get rich, because when the government decides that they need more population and lifts the ban on child-birth, a lot of people in the countryside will be ready to have a baby boom.
http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-as...since-2000

8. The Chinese language is unique and has an enormous tradition and history and culture underlying it. When you live in China and speak the Chinese language, you will become more or less 'sinicized', oriented to think 'the Chinese way'. Mao could not destroy the languages,so he could not in the end really succeed in destroying Chinese culture.
The Chinese people have been the greatest assimilator in history. Every race that conquered them were assimilated by them, drown in their sea of people. They have have also actively conquered and assimilated myriads of tribes and races, that is how they got so big and populous. And that is also how they have an uninterrupted civilization. The perseverance or sturdiness of their racial substance is top-class, on par with the Jews.

9. About the clannish tradition being undermined in China, it is not necessarily a bad thing in so far as they replace it with nationalism and not individualism. In history, the clans have been a factors or unrest and divisions. Many a time people put their clan's interest above that of the kingdom, the people, and thus led to China being split or conquered by other races. The current China, as I see it, is more unified and nationalistic than ever before. Local dialects are also gradually being replaced by Mandarin.

10. China is having a lot of problems. Tremendous problems, in fact. But they also have massive potential. China's core strength is its large, ultra-nationalistic, high IQ, cunning, driven, hard-working and ruthlessly pragmatic population. Almost every flaws would be rendered minor in the face of this strength, and almost every major problems can be overcome with this force.

The white race is not inferior to the Chinese race in terms of individuals. What they don't have is such a massive population that is united by racial bond, long tradition and nationalism. Hence they are much in risk of being minoritized and outbred than the Chinese is.

The quantity of their 130+ IQ human resources surpass that of any other country. Their massive population also ensure that the competitive pressure is always high, which makes them less likely to end up being pussies.

China may not get to the top within 30 years. But they can do so in 50 years, or 100 years. No matter how long it takes, with its potential, the Chinese people can firmly advance to the top. If there is one race that can counter the Zionistic Globalizing force of the Jews, it would be the Chinese race.

[Fortis]

[quote='Liberty Sea' pid='1554827' dateline='1492746691']
[quote]

10. China is having a lot of problems. Tremendous problems, in fact. But they also have massive potential. China's core strength is its large, ultra-nationalistic, high IQ, cunning, driven, hard-working and ruthlessly pragmatic population. Almost every flaws would be rendered minor in the face of this strength, and almost every major problems can be overcome with this force. [/quote]

Again, dudes keep mistaking parts for the whole. The average Chinese dude is not this ruthless alpha male who is deeply pragmatic and nationalistic. Walk into any department store and I'll show you China's version of "The people of walmart" in Shenzhen. China is like 95% farmer and maybe, MAYBE 5% super smart.

Again, a lot of this "oMG CHINA IS TAKING OVER STUFF" has gotta be propaganda funded by China. It is not rooted in the reality of what it's like in China. This is still a 3rd world country even if they're good at pretending it isn't.

Lots of the smartest Chinese people here are deeply resentful of their big daddy government that does all the "thinking" for them. You think they're all trying to get their money out of this country because they love it so much here?

So many of the rich Chinese people are trying to get the fuck out of here. I have a friend out here who is a Fuerdai and I was asking him how Chinese billionaires spend most of their time.

He looked at me, laughed and said, "they spend most of their time moving their money out of this country."



I think the government likes to put on this show of "we the Chinese people" but the Chinese are far more discriminatory against other Chinese than they are to many other groups.

me: "Rocky, do you like people from Hebei, Xin Jiang and Dongbei?"

Rocky "you mean do I like thieves and wife beaters? "

There is unity but it isn't this monolithic identity. So many ethnic groups were forced to "bend the knee" to china and they definitely have not forgotten that.

That said, I do agree that the government here is good at getting things done quickly, but the shit is often shabby. Just look at what they're doing in HK and with Bikesharing. They could have had a peace handover but decided to flex their muscles and make a display of it and they now have to drag an angry HK kicking and screaming into the fold.

Same with bike sharing, In SZ many of the people hate the bikes because they're everywhere. You walk to the front of your building and its a clutter of those little orange bikes. I'll give them a 10 on the idea, but it was poorly done. It's clutter central and annoying to property owners everywhere, especially when the clutter gets so bad that you can't walk into your own building.

I"m sure you guys also saw that video of that bike route that had literal standstill traffic because everyone decided to bike the same route.

China is a deeply myopic country with myopic decision-making on many levels. I could harp on and on about this sort of stuff.

I don't do this because I dislike it here, but simply because it seems like there is a lot of 1-sided Chinese and Russian cheerleading on this forum.

Speak to any long-term expat who has been here for 10+ years and they'd laugh at the idea of a chinese world takeover within the next 10-20 years. They can hardly manage their own population *cough* Xinjiang *cough* but i'm supposed to believe they're going to export the Chinese system globally and crumble the west from within?



Sorry, unless I've just been not seeing anything for the past 2 years, I simply don't buy this chinese world dominance schtick.

[Suits]

I can't buy into the "China will over-take the world" dynamic, because history has repeatedly shown that China can only grow so big before it collapses in on itself due to corruptions and in-fighting.

That being said, we are going to see increased Chinese global influence over the next few decades and maybe century. They will probably give the US a run for its money for hegemonic status. However, China has always been its own worth enemy and no one hates Chinese people more than other Chinese people.

There's no social harmony. Sure, they'll enjoy the benefits of Chinese ethnic preference for other Chinese and jump on any opportunity to gang up on and beat up a foreigner, but don't mistake this for actual patriotism.

Chinese nationalism is born out of a need to feel superiority to other races. But at their core, the Mainland Chinese are utterly selfish and care nothing for each others welfare.

This is evidenced by lots of things. How both the rich and poor litter constantly with no regard for others. How people drive. The very fact that Chinese drivers commonly run over pedestrians they've struck a few extra times to ensure that they are dead (so that they don't have to pay for their long term medical treatment) should tell you everything that you need to know.

I do have some concern that unpredicted events could lead to an escalation into full on war, but I have no doubt that there's an absolute limit to how successful China can be before it turns on itself.

China, by the way, has no interest in foreign invasions. They've got enough to deal with at home. There strategy, rather, is to suck all the global wealth and power into China.

[Liberty Sea]

(04-20-2017 11:43 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

Again, dudes keep mistaking parts for the whole. The average Chinese dude is not this ruthless alpha male who is deeply pragmatic and nationalistic. Walk into any department store and I'll show you China's version of "The people of walmart" in Shenzhen. China is like 95% farmer and maybe, MAYBE 5% super smart.

I'm not saying that "the average Chinese dude" is a "ruthless alpha male who is deeply pragmatic and nationalistic." My wording can be misleading. Lets' break into clearer terms:
1. China has a massive population.
2. Its average IQ is fairly high. (100 by some measures, 104 by some other)
https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
https://theslittyeye.wordpress.com/2011/...-in-china/

Due to its large population, the number of high-IQ in China would be higher than that of any country with similar average IQ. Which give its tremendous potential.

3. An average Joe is anywhere an average Joe. But Chinese are, in average, more pragmatic and ruthless than their Western counterpart.
https://qz.com/158282/china-may-actually...the-world/
Your experience count, but so do that of others:
thread-30755...#pid596824

4. They are also more nationalistic on average than their Western counterpart, as can be seen in their protests, and numerous signs I have listed above.

5. Perhaps 60%-70% of Chinese are peasantlike, but damn, how many races have this mass of farmers assimilated in history? In long term, the possibility that the people of Xinjiang and Tibet get assimilated by the Chinese is quite high. The government has put forward a ban on Xinjiang men growing muslim beard and women wearing burqa.

6. Chinese also have a damn high rate and number of people who are good at doing business, being cunning and Machiavellian.

I'm sure that there are a lot of sloppinesses in the current Chinese management. I'm not saying that the current system is the best, or that they will rule the world in the nest 20 years, or ever (standing at the top =/= ruling the world), or that they are bound to export their system to the world. All I'm saying that they have strong and sturdy potential that can ensure them a high (or top) position in the world, unlikely to be Judeo-globalized.

The population dynamics in the West is going to change. Even Trump cannot reverse that. He can only perhaps slow it. White people have too low birth rate while colored people have much higher birth rate. The same thing is not going to happen in China. Its one child policy has done great damage, but it still has a large stock of poor people ready to breed. And if nationalism is high enough, people can tend towards natalism as it is in Israel. In that future, the power balance will lean towards China. Things will get better for the Chinese, as they are a people capable of such, as shown in their past civilization, which stood at the top of the world for thousands of years.

The Chinese can put on a show. It requires some impressive organizing ability to put on a show as great as the Beijing Olympic opening ceremony, which has since held the unchallenged position as the best opening ceremony, ever.

[Fortis]

I agree, the chinese will never go full-judeo, but you can see their traditional/conservative system crumbling around the edges. It will evolve and become more liberal or it will crumble under pressure from the inside from the people. Anyway, you've put up some great posts. Got me thinking a lot.

Thanks, Libertysea.

[Arado]

LibertySea pretty much crushed it in his response, so I just have a couple things to add:

Quote:

I agree, the chinese will never go full-judeo, but you can see their traditional/conservative system crumbling around the edges. It will evolve and become more liberal or it will crumble under pressure from the inside from the people.

Quote:

Chinese nationalism is born out of a need to feel superiority to other races. But at their core, the Mainland Chinese are utterly selfish and care nothing for each others welfare.

There are definitely social issues to be sure, but Western liberalism is undergoing a death spiral that is far worse than anything in Chinese society. As people become more wealthy and communism fades away they are starting to regain a new respect for their cultural traditions. Alot of Westerners get annoyed at the stuff they have to deal with in China. But the fact remains - they are in China. Not Brazil, not India, not Mexico, not Russia, not Saudi Arabia, not Africa. They are not in Islamizing Europe, and they aren't in Detroit or Baltimore. No society is perfect.

Chinese are perfectly happy to screw foreigners out of their money as well though, it's not like they actually hate other Chinese. This is a society with a low resource/population ratio - dog eat dog. People have to be cunning to survive. But as the society gets wealthier and Chinese have more access to opportunities abroad then I really think they will start looking out for each other more in order to team up against the non Han. Most other countries with per capita GDP in line with China have worse cheating and corruption problems.

Quote:

This is evidenced by lots of things. How both the rich and poor litter constantly with no regard for others. How people drive. The very fact that Chinese drivers commonly run over pedestrians they've struck a few extra times to ensure that they are dead (so that they don't have to pay for their long term medical treatment) should tell you everything that you need to know.

This sounds like South China Morning Post type sensationalism. Do you know how many Chinese people tell me that they thought the NYC subway was disgusting because of all the trash and piss? Cities in China are really cleaning up their act now, and the driving in China is still better than many other countries I've been to.

Quote:

I can't buy into the "China will over-take the world" dynamic, because history has repeatedly shown that China can only grow so big before it collapses in on itself due to corruptions and in-fighting.

I do have some concern that unpredicted events could lead to an escalation into full on war, but I have no doubt that there's an absolute limit to how successful China can be before it turns on itself.

China, by the way, has no interest in foreign invasions. They've got enough to deal with at home. There strategy, rather, is to suck all the global wealth and power into China.

Well, sure, all countries eventually collapse. The Roman Empire did, the Egyptians did, the Mongols did, the Qing dynasty did, etc. And so will America one day. Assuming alien invasion or a meteor (or any other scifi doomsday scenario) doesn't happen, then yes, China is rising, and one day it will fall, but I'm going to be long dead by then so I'm not worried. That's the nature of human history - it's a series of cycles.

However, in the few hundred years while they are a power they will have a massive impact on the course of human civilization. Just look at the Ming, the Han, the Tang - massively powerful empires that received tribute from all the countries around them. These dynasties lasted for hundreds of years. Sure they all collapsed eventually, but all dynasties collapse eventually, that's just how history works - if you look at any country out there, they all had different dynasties at different points in their history. The fact that in a country's past it had dynasties that collapsed doesn't say anything about whether that country can have a major impact on the world while it is powerful. The fact that the Tang eventually collapsed doesn't negate the fact that at one point for quite some time they were the biggest motherfucker on the block. Are we ready for China to have the same dominance in the world that the Tang did at their peak? I'm not!

And no interest in invasion? Sure. No one invades another country just for the sake of it. They do it for resources and living space. When Germany felt like it was more powerful than its neighbors and deserved more resources, well there you go - World War One and Two. Ditto for Japan, and America, and the European powers, and basically every tribe, monkey clan, lion pride, and ant colony since the beginning of life on earth. No matter what species/culture we are, we always want more resources to multiply our genes. This is the fundamental nature of existence. This is HUMAN NATURE. Countries fight for the share of resources that they feel they deserve and will always be aggressive when they can benefit from it.

China will be a massive power surrounded by (other than NE Asia) states that can't get their shit together and have lots of resources. When China becomes more powerful, absent a dynamic and robust West ready to stop them, it will simply be too tempting to resist invading other countries, regardless of the kumbaya bs peaceful rise crap they are singing now. The Chinese keep saying that because of Confucianism they will never invade once they become powerful. Bullshit.

Just look at what's happening in the south China sea. China would lose if we went to war with them, but yet they are STILL intimidating their neighbors into giving up territory there now. Now just imagine what happens in 15 years when they have double the GDP of the US, and even greater resource demands. I don't know what that world would look like, but we should at least be thinking seriously about it.

Previous posters are misrepresenting my position as "China is taking over the world." That is too simplistic - all I'm saying is that the greatest challenge to the West is going to come from an ever more powerful China, and this forum and the entire gaga Trump alt-right movement is completely not ready for it. China will expand their presence in other countries and they will have to kowtow to them to some degree.

And I'm also trying to figure out how China fits into the globalist paranoia throughout this corner of the web. If the globalists/Jews control everything, why the hell would they facilitate the rise of China, when there is zero indication that China will do the globalists' bidding? People in other threads apparently have the entire world figured out based on the nationalist/globalist model - and I admit, events really do start to make sense when thinking in those terms rather than traditional left/right. But that model simply breaks down when you look at China, so I'm basically trying to understand what the hell is going on.

[Samseau]

^ show me the board of shareholders of China. If there are no Jews on it, China may have chance. Otherwise,

Quote:

me: "Rocky, do you like people from Hebei, Xin Jiang and Dongbei?"

Rocky "you mean do I like thieves and wife beaters?"

The usual Talmudic divide and conquer tactics will be more than enough.

[Lunostrelki]

Let's not forget that in the last 100+ years, China has had terrible governance and terrible geopolitical luck, and yet they're still in second place today. Pretty much all its social discord (people shitting on subways, failure to queue, etc.) can be traced back to the chaos of the warlord era, the Cultural Revolution, and other manmade disasters that the leaders and commoners of today are keen to prevent repeats of.

A more recent phenomenon we will be seeing the end of is the absolute godlike status of money that took off in the 1980s and was really enshrined after June 4th 1989. Xi Jinping has smashed a lot of the political-economic fiefs and is in the process of eviscerating the "rule by consensus" of the 1990s and 2000s that facilitated the era's multi-trillion-dollar corruption. As long as Xi or someone with his sense of leadership is going strong, we'll see greater top-down reform and more effective regulation. In turn this will improve social order.

Quote:

Previous posters are misrepresenting my position as "China is taking over the world." That is too simplistic - all I'm saying is that the greatest challenge to the West is going to come from an ever more powerful China, and this forum and the entire gaga Trump alt-right movement is completely not ready for it. China will expand their presence in other countries and they will have to kowtow to them to some degree.

Based on Trump's recent meetings with Xi, this is already happening.

[Liberty Sea]

(04-21-2017 02:17 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

^ show me the board of shareholders of China. If there are no Jews on it, China may have chance. Otherwise,

Quote:

me: "Rocky, do you like people from Hebei, Xin Jiang and Dongbei?"

Rocky "you mean do I like thieves and wife beaters?"

The usual Talmudic divide and conquer tactics will be more than enough.

By divide and conquer, do you mean that the Jews will split China into multiple states warring against each other? That scenario is not altogether impossible, but that's still different from the Judeo-globalization happening in the West. In the case that China is split, what's most likely is that the citizens of each state will view themselves as the one true Chinese people while the other states are illegitimate, either traitors to the true Han race (Hanjian) or not real Chinese to begin with; either way they will strive to unify China with whatever necessary mean.
Anyone who does not support the One China Policy is called a hanjian. Historically, the attitude of Chinese (the ones that matter) towards other Chinese states is, let's conquer those guys and educate them so they can become one of us. The one thing they will not become is some sort of judeo-western-esque global citizens. The only form of global citizenship acceptable to the Chinese is one in which everyone is sinicized.

China is not America. America is a nation of settlers and immigrants. People came to a new land to begin a new life, leaving old foundations behind, ready for anything new, new mindset, new ideology, new way of thinking, new identity. Much of Europeans also began as Germanic barbarian raiders and immigrants who accepted a civilization that used to be alien to them (from two sources: Greco-Roman civilization and Judeo-Christian religion). China is on the other hand a 5000 years old civilization. Their ethno-cultural identity is deep-rooted, deeply entrenched - especially when one lives in the soil of mainland China. Any foreign ideology ought to be sinicized enough to be accepted by the Chinese. This was true with with globalistic ideologies like Buddhism and Communism. They cannot come above the supremacy of Chinese identity. (Communism with Chinese characteristics is not communist in anything but name)

What the China is currently lacking is a thought system fitting for the age, sufficiently Chinese, and as powerful as Confucianism was in its age. We'll see if they can create one.

[Enigma]

China's population is so cunning and pragmatic that in the middle of a decades long tech boom, the country with one of the largest economies and consumer markets in the world has failed to produce almost any technology that competes on an international level.

It's almost incredible, when you think about it.

A country with the biggest manufacturing base in the world can't even create a car that penetrates the Southeast Asian markets right next door, where ethnic Chinese control 50%+ of every economy, but South Korea can.

A country with 1.3+ billion people can't even develop a cell phone, TV, etc. that competes with LG or Samsung. Even in places like the Philippines and Thailand, Chinese brands are considered cheap, substandard products.

Now, who were the preeminent military powers of the past century? Just off the top of my head, I'd wager the US, WW1&2 Germany, and Imperial Japan.

What do all of those countries have in common? They were all head and shoulders ahead of most of the world when it comes to technology and engineering.

And they also had a very important cultural similarity, which was a huge focus on quality. The term American Exceptionalism didn't come from churning out cheap toys and $100 smartphones. In fact, you could argue that a lot of the US' economic problems are a product of shifting to a quantity over quality mindset, with low prices being considered over great design.

The Chinese are almost the exact opposite. Their economic model is one of cutting corners.

Again, even in Southeast Asia, Chinese companies are not regarded for their exemplary service and great products. Usually its Japanese, American, and Korean companies that people want to work for.

While the US has a problem of exporting its manufacturing, China has a problem of not having any marquee products of its own to manufacture.

China is not going to become the economic superpower they're predicted to be unless they can transition from making (and stealing) other country's products to making their own; and they're not going to be the military superpower they're predicted to be without developing significant military tech of their own.

But China's shown neither the ability nor inclination to do either of these things.

Does that mean that China can or will not be a significant force of the world stage? No.

But in order to grow into this global behemoth that people have been insisting they'll be for the past decade, they're going to have to do a lot more than steal US jet schematics and manufacture iPhones.

As of right now, China's economy may be large, but when broken down per capita they are still WAY behind most of the developed world. And the same goes for military tech.

Japan is still pound-for-pound the better military, and it's really not close. China's advantage is they have a shit ton of people to throw into the meat grinder (and the willingness to do it), but that has never been the mark of a great military.

Even the Mongol "hordes" were successful because they were damn good at waging war in the way that they did.

And it's not a foregone conclusion that China will be able to transition from the "made in China" spam factory to the advanced economy that people are foreseeing for them. It's just not that simple.

There's a lot of naivete that goes into this "large population + large gross GDP = poof, magic" explanation of China's supposedly inevitable progression.

Case in point:

(04-21-2017 07:09 AM)Arado Wrote:  

Now just imagine what happens in 15 years when they have double the GDP of the US, and even greater resource demands.

China's economy would have to nearly QUADRUPLE to hit that mark... in 15 years.

It'd require annual growth of at least 15% per year, assuming that the US does not grow at all.

Meanwhile, their actual growth rate is around 6% and hasn't hit 10% since about 2011. In fact, it's at its lowest mark in 25 years, and shows no signs of exploding in such a manner.

Yet this prediction is presented as inevitable and we're considered blind for not believing it.

As has been discussed at length in this thread, their economy has A LOT of inefficiency and waste, and that is only going to get WAY worse as they continue to scale. There are very few businesses that become more efficient and higher quality as they grow from big to massive; it's usually the opposite.

There are very few developing countries that not only maintain the same level of growth but INCREASE it.

Again, does this mean that China will not be stronger in 15 years? No.

But are they gong to more than triple their economy in that same time period? Almost certainly not. Even if they maintained their current growth unabated until then, they'd put their gross economy roughly on par with the US -- except they have 4x times the population.

[Liberty Sea]

(04-21-2017 08:22 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

China's population is so cunning and pragmatic that in the middle of a decades long tech boom, the country with one of the largest economies and consumer markets in the world has failed to produce almost any technology that competes on an international level.

A bit busy so I won't delve much into this for now, but, point 1, why do you equate cunningness with technological creativity though? Does a cunning merchant/politician have to be a great innovating inventor to be a cunning merchant/politician?

[Enigma]

(04-21-2017 08:28 PM)Liberty Sea Wrote:  

(04-21-2017 08:22 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

China's population is so cunning and pragmatic that in the middle of a decades long tech boom, the country with one of the largest economies and consumer markets in the world has failed to produce almost any technology that competes on an international level.

A bit busy so I won't delve much into this for now, but, point 1, why do you equate cunningness with technological creativity though? Does a cunning merchant/politician have to be a great innovating inventor to be a cunning merchant/politician?

I don't equate cunningness with technological innovation. I was being sarcastic.

I went on to explain my points at length in the rest of the post.

[Liberty Sea]

(04-21-2017 08:34 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-21-2017 08:28 PM)Liberty Sea Wrote:  

(04-21-2017 08:22 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

China's population is so cunning and pragmatic that in the middle of a decades long tech boom, the country with one of the largest economies and consumer markets in the world has failed to produce almost any technology that competes on an international level.

A bit busy so I won't delve much into this for now, but, point 1, why do you equate cunningness with technological creativity though? Does a cunning merchant/politician have to be a great innovating inventor to be a cunning merchant/politician?

I don't equate cunningness with technological innovation. I was being sarcastic.

I went on to explain my points at length in the rest of the post.

1. I assumed you were being sarcastic. I thought you were sort of implying that: 'If the Chinese are so cunning pragmatic, why haven't they invented any internationally competitive brand? They haven't, therefore they're not cunning and pragmatic'. So I responded that cunningness did not necessarily go with technological creativity. But perhaps I misread you?

2. As for whether China is showing any sign that they will start making their own competing luxury brand, I often run into articles as follow:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard...5930cd77a4

Quote:

How 'Made In China' Became Cool

A revolution in consumer sentiment has spread across China. “Made in China” no longer inherently means cheap, inferior, and unfashionable. The respectable Chinese brand has emerged, and some have not only caught up with their more established foreign rivals but have actually started to surpass them in China and beyond.

In 2011, 70% of smartphone sales in China were from three foreign brands: Nokia, Samsung, and Apple. At that time, the country's myriad local electronics manufacturers and nascent domestic brands were thought to be little more than cheap impostors, lacking in quality and simply not carrying the same social-proof and status as the expensive and trendy foreign phones which dominated the market.

“Any self-respecting Chinese consumer wouldn't be seen dead with a local brand,” Mark Tanner, the director of China Skinny, a Shanghai-based consumer research firm, described the prevailing attitude of this period.

But now, hardly five years later, this has changed.

“Last year, eight of the top-ten [smartphone] brands were Chinese,” Tanner explained, “with Huawei and Xiaomi in the top spots and local brands quickly eroding the two foreign brands, Apple and Samsung.”

This year, the trend has continued. Oppo, a home grown Chinese hi-tech/media company, recently became the second most popular smartphone brand in China, whose 67% growth was enough to propel it past Apple. According to various reports, seven of the top ten smartphone brands in the world are now Chinese. This includes Huawei, which is not only the mainland’s top handset brand but is currently slotted as number two in Europe and number three in the world.

Chinese brands are no longer inherently looked down upon, as they were just a few years ago. According to a recent McKinsey report (PDF direct download link), 62% of Chinese consumers now prefer Chinese brands over foreign ones if the quality and price are equal. “Five years ago it would have been well under half,” Tanner said.

Tanner attributes this drastic about-face in consumer sentiment to four main factors:

1) Many Chinese brands have drastically improved the quality of their products

This is by far the most important driver of this transition: “Made in China” no longer equates to bad. Where China’s manufacturers initially found their niche filling the world’s markets with low cost products they are now also pumping out some of the most sophisticated, cutting edge, and high-quality items available, and consumer sentiment around the world has adjusted accordingly.

2) Chinese consumers are becoming more confident in the social-proof that comes with domestic brands

Foreign brands are no longer anything new in China. They’ve had a major presence in the country for the better part of a generation, and to the young, jet set of the country, international brands like Apple and Starbucks are on the decline as far as their ability to help flaunt their wealth, sophistication, and worldliness and are becoming just a normal part of the landscape — a handful of options to choose from among many others. As some high-end Chinese products are no longer functionally inferior to their foreign counterparts, the footing that international brands once had is eroding fast. The free-fall descent of Apple in China— sales dropping 26 percent so far this year — is just one example of this. According to Tanner, Chinese consumers no longer “need a foreign brand to show they're cool.”

3) Buying Chinese brands is increasingly being seen as a patriotic act

The desire for Chinese people to support Chinese brands for idealistic or patriotic reasons is also rapidly increasing.

“People will feel encouraged to support a Chinese brand because they are a Chinese person,” Cody Chao, a watcher of China's tech space, summed up this phenomenon matter-of-factly.

Key opinion leaders, such as the First Lady Peng Liyuan, who is very public about exclusively wearing only Chinese fashion, are bringing domestic brands into the forefront and having a major influence on China’s consumers. Tanner explained that in October 2012, World Luxury Association found that 86% of Chinese consumers refused to buy domestic luxury products because of their country’s reputation for cheap goods. Then, just 18-months later, after what has been dubbed the “Peng Liyuan effect,” this number fell to 9%, according to research by Added Value.

“If we look back to 2011, 31% of Chinese consumers wanted to support Chinese companies by buying Chinese goods,” Tanner said. “Just a year later, it was 43%. It is representative of how fast Chinese consumers are maturing.”

4) Domestic cinema ushers in a renaissance of Chinese culture

Contemporary Chinese culture is being helped big time by the growth of domestic cinema, which is using its soft power to promote Chinese brands similar to the way that Hollywood promotes Western brands like Starbucks and Nike. In 2012, 47.6% of China's box office was local films, but last year this rose to 62%, which is something that Tanner said shapes national pride and a preference for all things Chinese.

Some Chinese brands also often have an advanced understanding of their country's multitudinous and complex markets, and are able to devise sales strategies and product features which are highly optimized for the local.

Oppo became a model example of a Chinese brand using locally targeted marketing campaigns and technological innovations to their advantage. With highly-promoted technologies, such as phones that can provide three hours of talk time from five minutes of charging, using Korean and Chinese pop stars as spokespeople, and filling lower-tier cities, where people are less likely to buy online, with a plethora of brick and mortar shops, they quickly rose to become the number two smartphone brand in the country.

The tides of China’s manufacturing empire are rapidly shifting, and consumer sentiment has been following closely behind. Where it was once only about making the largest amount of products as fast and cheap as possible, it’s now about quality, marketing savvy, and brand image. Five years ago Xiaomi did well by positioning itself as an acceptable alternative for people who couldn’t afford an iPhone or a high-end Samsung, which is a marketing strategy that no flies so well today.

“They don’t say that anymore,” Chao said. “They say, ‘We are good.’ This is a new trend for the Chinese smartphone industry, which is now about high-quality, high-price.”

“Chinese are inherently proud of what they've achieved in the past generation and are now realizing, ‘Hey, we're actually a pretty impressive country,’” Tanner concluded.

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/2015060...xury-label (click link for images)

Quote:

Can made in China become a luxury label?
Home-grown wealth appeal



Wealthier Chinese consumers have long turned to the West to find the luxury goods they desire. But that could be changing.

To satisfy the cravings of the new upper class in the Middle Kingdom, top-shelf brands made in China that cater to Chinese tastes have begun to emerge as real contenders.

Their market share remains too small to measure, but some experts say it’s the start of a lasting trend.

While you’re still more likely to find a Louis Vuitton or Gucci gown hanging in a Chinese wardrobe than an Uma Wang or Masha Ma dress, home-grown brands are taking advantage of a three-fold change.

First, a shift in tastes of wealthy Chinese consumers from big bling to classier, more niche offerings. Second, quality improvements have helped nascent brands shed the stigma of “made in China” and put them more on par with global competitors. Finally, a general patriotic sentiment has been brought on by a resurgence of the “Chinese dream” launched by the President Xi Jinping.

“Chinese brands are now coming out into their own,” said Jean-Baptiste Andriani, academic director for the Shanghai branch of IFA, the Paris fashion and design school.

Some of the Chinese luxury brands and products showing finding appeal with native consumers (as well as showing up on shelves worldwide) include The Herborist, Ye Mingzi, Bao Bao Wan and farmed caviar.

“Before, people were embarrassed about anything coming out of China. This is no longer the case,” said Shaun Rein, author of The End of Copycat China and founder of consulting firm China Market Research Group. “Overall it’s an exciting time for Chinese brands. People are looking for a Chinese lifestyle they can aspire to.”

Take Chinese haute-couture designer Guo Pei’s latest collection. Last decade, her extravagant pieces were more about reinterpreting European culture. Now her elaborate red dresses and ethnic designs reference their Chinese roots. Pei, who regularly dresses local VIPs for red carpet events, said 2008 was a turning point. “I then realised I was proud to be Chinese,” she said.

Despite recent successes, challenges remain for these nascent luxury brands. They don’t appear in any of the favoured Top 10 lists of Chinese consumers compiled by research firms and many remain unknown outside of China. Furthermore, they are as expensive as their foreign counterparts, without the glamour to go with the price tag. But, as many home-grown brands take the leap overseas, they are gaining ground with luxury-hungry Chinese consumers.

Beauty secrets


In 2013, the cosmetics market in China market was worth 162.5bn yuan ($26.5bn) up from 89bn yuan in 2010 ($14.5bn), according to figures released by China’s National Bureau of Statistics.

While international giants such as Procter & Gamble or L’Oreal still dominate the mainland, their share is falling every year as more local brands adapt to market.

“Chinese women don’t like foreign brands [which] they see [being] for white people,” said Shaun Rein with China Market Research Group.

The Chinese consumer won’t hesitate to switch brands and tends to use different skincare products for different seasons. They layer products more than their Western counterparts, and look for the best products to lighten the skin and provide luminosity, he said.

“Chinese cosmetic brands will brand themselves as for Asian faces. I fully expect more Chinese luxury brands in that segment,” Rein added.

One such brand is The Herborist, launched as a high-end cosmetics brand by Jahwa, a Shanghai-listed pharmaceuticals giant in 1998. In 2007, it branched out overseas, betting on its Chinese characteristics — herbs, traditional Chinese medicine — as a lure for Asian consumers around the world. Products are sold with massage and acupuncture advice and detailed benefits of plants used in the creams.

Its shop, located on the prestigious Avenue de l’Opera in Paris, is the first boutique of the Chinese luxury cosmetics brand to open overseas. Its best-selling product, the T’ai Chi mask, commands 55 euros ($61).

Its success prompted Jahwa in 2010 to re-launch a cosmetics brand from the beginning of the 20th country — Shanghai VIVE (meaning two sisters). The revisited brand targets Chinese consumers who don’t hesitate to splurge on expensive cosmetics. Its 50ml perfume sells for 890 yuan ($143).

Fashion moves forward, slowly

Brand New China (BNC) chose the trendy Sanlitun area in Beijing for its store that showcases China’s best fashion and design. The shop, located only metres away from international fashion houses such as Chanel and Armani, caters to a new kind of Chinese consumer: one who is shifting from big logos to more niche, discreet names.

Rather than flashy logos or pale copies of what has already been done, the 200sqm shop is filled with printed silks, deconstructed dresses, futuristic shoes and hand bags which look like a Mondrian painting. All have something in common: a slight Chinese touch, whether in the materials used or in the designs.

The latest Bain & Co luxury report shows the brand-savvy Chinese consumer is increasingly willing to swap a Louis Vuitton bag for a more low-key item. Forty-four percent of respondents interviewed said that they were willing to try an emerging luxury brand in the next three years. This could play out well for the many new Chinese designers setting up shop in Shanghai or Beijing.

While it’s yet too early to formalise a Chinese identity for fashion, more and more Chinese names are emerging and some are collaborating with international brands. For example, Ye Mingzi and Bao Bao Wan (pictured above) designed Chinese-inspired jewellery for Swarovski.

Some say China has become a selling point and one consumers are ready to embrace.

“We are not trying to copy the West in any kind. We want to bring the consumer a choice. An alternative for their wardrobe” said Raphael le Masne de Chermont, chief executive officer of Chinese lifestyle brand Shanghai Tang. “If you think of luxury industry worldwide, all the brands roots themselves in knowhow of their nation.”

Acquired taste: Three-star caviar

In less than a decade, China has positioned itself as the world’s biggest producer of caviar, filling the gap left by overfishing and poaching in the Caspian Sea. The precious eggs, first farmed from imported sturgeons from Iran and Russia 20 years ago in lakes around the country, compare in quality with those from more traditional producers. The eggs received “made in China” certificates for export in 2006.

Now, Chinese caviar is on the menu of three-star Michelin restaurants around the world.

“Five years ago, the eggs tasted like mud. But the farmers have adapted to international standards and raised the quality. Over the past two to three, years the quality has been really good,” said Giorgio Brandinelli, general manager of Gourmet Fine Foods, a supplier of luxury food to mainland China hotels and restaurants.

The Italian native sells caviar under the brand Aristocrat. The eggs are sourced from lakes around China and salted with imported Italian salt.

So far, Chinese caviar has primarily been aimed at overseas markets, with 70% of it exported. However, that percentage is expected to fall as interest from wealthy Chinese rises.

“The market is moving in that direction,” Brandelli said.


Wine: A work in progress

When a Chinese boutique wine won an award in 2008, wine critics from around the world flocked to China in search of the next wine sensation. Foreign spirit makers such as Remy Cointreau, Moët & Chandon or LVMH teamed with local wineries in the hope of positioning themselves in what has become one of the biggest wine-drinking nations in the world.

China is now the world’s top consumer of red wine and sixth-biggest producer, according to Vinexpo, a Bordeaux-based wine industry conference exporter. In less than a decade, the educated Chinese middle-class has learnt how to pair their wines: mixing Coca Cola with vintage Bordeaux is an image of the past.

While the Chinese consumer still favours a French or Italian wine, some Chinese wineries are positioning themselves as an alternative option. Names like Grace Vineyard are gaining traction with certain consumers. This boutique Chinese winery was founded in 1997 and rebranded in 2002 when Judy Leissner, daughter of the founder, took the helm. Since, the wine can be found in local and even Hong Kong restaurants.

Moet & Chandon in 2014 released a sparkling wine aimed at the Chinese consumer in 2014, priced at 150 yuan ($24) a bottle.

The quality of Chinese-grown wines is expected to improve over time as the market matures.

“Chinese wine quality is certainly getting better. But problems remain concerning production: from poor vine material to a lack of hygiene in wineries. They still have huge issues with quality,” said Edward Ragg, co-founder of Dragon Phoenix, a wine-consulting firm based in Beijing. “But there are quality wines. You just have to hunt for them.”

Has China truly produced technology that can compete internationally? Not yet. Is it true that they showed absolutely no sign of going in that direction? I don’t think so. Something is changing, however slowly, and it begins with Chinese mainlanders start using homegrown luxury in increasing number, something which did not happen before.

Many Chinese are working as scientists in Western labs. The ratio is very high.

Quote:

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles...nstem.aspx

In high-tech Silicon Valley, California, more than one-half of business start-ups over that period involved a foreign-born scientist or engineer; one-fourth included an Indian or Chinese immigrant.2

In the past the Chinese have also shown capacity for invention that was repressed by Confucianism which saw technological ability as perverse cunning. The Chinese four great inventions - paper, printing, gun powder and compass - were thus not made great use of in Chinese homeland, but when they were exported to the West through the Crusade, they contributed heavily to Western innovation, modernization and industrialization. In 1620, Francis Bacon said that "printing, gunpowder, and the nautical compass... have altered the face and state of the world: first, in literary matters; second, in warfare; third, in navigation..." (apparently without knowing they came from China.) Chinese goods some hundred years ago were also considered luxury goods that Western aristocrats admired and made their own imitation of it. I don't see why the Chinese can't again show this ability and become a technological leader in say, 50 or 100 years. It's not like they're genetically incapable of it.

3. On the view that Chinese hate each other more than they hate foreigners (including Japanese): this does not make sense to me. How can they hate each other more than foreigners and yet gang up with each other to beat up foreigners, gather up in drove to protest against Japan and so on? The fact that they do not care if Chinese beat each other but get heated up when a Chinese get into a skirmish with a foreigner mean that: In the lack of the presence of a foreigner, they may not care about each other, even hate each other, but in the presence of foreign elements, they are more than willing to unite, putting aside ingroup conflicts and differences to fight against foreign elements, which means, they put national dignity higher than ingroup differences, and having a Chinese man beaten by a foreigner is an insult to Chinese national dignity. A sentiment not quite isolated that I have seen in some groups of Chinese: Only a (Han) Chineseman has the right to beat a Chineseman; it’s not acceptable for a laowai, especially a colonialist whitey or a Japanese Oni (demon) to do it. I’m willing to bet my money that in the event of a foreign invasion, the Hans will quickly unite, show camraderies towards each other and willingness to die for their country. It's not a phenomenon unique to China- it happened in the history of Vietnam and some other Asian countries as well.

4. As for why Chinese are doing so well financially overseas even if the difference in IQ between them and the locals is not too high, my theory is that, IQ is not same as financial/commercial ability. I have seen many Vietnamese farmers getting cheated by Chinese merchants, and Vietnamese businessmen losing to Chinese businessmen simply because they are just not as good in business skills despite being just as educated and intelligent. China has a high rate of people who are good at being cunning merchants like the Jews, especially the ones that are willing to live oversea. Perhaps Trump was onto something when he said that Chinese are great negotiators? And from what I have heard, Chinese oversea communities have much more solidarity than the Vietnamese oversea communities.

[Fortis]

I'd say one of the biggest strengths China has is that it doesn't exactly need to appeal to the world at large. This is why cuckerberg is so hard on getting into china. With 1 billion + people Chinese Entrepreneurs don't' have to be interested in how the rest of the world perceives them and their products. Of course, pivoting this into international appeal will probably take decades but it can definitely happen. China already has been leading the charge on drone technology. DJI, anyone?


The way I think about Chinese engineering is like this: the Chinese are amazing problem solvers--if they see a problem. Convince Chinese people that the sun is a problem and they'll probably come up with a way to make it better.

This, compounded with another fact definitely does give china an edge in many ways.

America has pussy-protection laws and China has economic protection laws.

They are hellbent on keeping money inside and circulating and one way that they do this very well is by forcing everyone to use wechat pay and by giving strong government preference to domestic brands. Of course, a lot of these brands are garbage by western standards, but it doesn't always matter when you have 300 million people who don't know any better about it. Even the ones who do know better still end up patronizing these brands because they're way cheaper than international brands.

The question of "how the chinese do well abroad" is very interesting. Iv'e been reading a book about the first chinese migrants to the south back in the 1800s. Alot of their success was predicated on was raw talent, but the other thing to consider is that they were bussed over to scare reconstruction era blacks into being less politically active by undercutting their work as sharecroppers and such. They were heavily underestimated and did not have nearly as many crushing laws levied against them as other groups since they were willing to work for cheaper.

The Chinese were successfully able to occupy that niche of not-quite-white and not-quite-black and eventually jump into the grocery industry in places like Mississippi. Like I said earlier, they are VERY good at solving the problems at hand, and the problem for them back then was how to not get financially raped by white plantation owners looking for cheap, apolitical labor. They realized early on that being a sharecropper was not the path to riches and they used their "not black" status and parlayed that into industries that other minority groups couldn't get into.

Nutritionally speaking, the Chinese also managed to save vast sums of money since they would subsist on cheap carbs such as rice instead of meat and other more expensive food items.

It's quite impressive how a group of people who were shipped over to scare the lower class blacks ended up, in some ways, overtaking upper-class whites. I don't think it points 100% to "oMG HIGH IQ OVERLORDS" but to blend of intelligence and proper social conditions.

[Liberty Sea]

1. Why is it that the Filipinos do so well financially in the US, performing better than mainland Chinese immigrants but at home they are ruled financially by the Chinese? Well, honestly I don't know. I don't have answer for everything, so I've to guess. My guess is that the Chinese have set up network all-over SEA to help other Chinese, and they are just better at being thug-cunning, which works better in the terrible law enforcement of SEA than in the US.

2. Check out this scientific paper on "China’s rise as a major contributor to science and technology". It's worth reading in full. In summary, the paper acknowledged that while there are rampant fraud in Chinese scientific institution, it cannot be denied that the quantity and quality of Chinese contribution to science has been steadily increasing, due to a culture that highly value learning, large population and economy (with a high average IQ) and government's high investment on science.

Notable excerpts:

Quote:

Fig. 5A shows that China is by far the fastest-growing country in terms of article productivity between 1990 and 2011. Growing at an annual rate of 15.4%, China’s total number of S/E articles increased 20 times, from 6,104 in 1990 to 122,672 in 2011. In comparison with other countries, China overtook the United Kingdom in 2004, and Japan and Germany in 2005, and has since remained second only to the United States. By 2011, China’s article output was two-thirds that of the United States, and more than half of the total production by all EU-15 countries combined.

China’s ascendancy in total scientific output has also been accompanied by a substantial improvement in quality. To measure quality, we use data from Thomson Reuters’ Web of Knowledge on the number of citations per article up to 2011. Papers produced in China generated on average 8.4 citations in 1990–1994, but this number increased to 10.7 in 2000–2004, despite a shorter exposure of more recent papers. To adjust for unequal exposure for citation over time, we use US data as the benchmark against which we compare China and other countries in Fig. 5B. Relative to the United States, China has steadily improved in average citation counts over the past two decades, with the China:US ratio rising from 26% in 1990 to 55% in 2010. Although the figure also shows that even for the latest period, citations of Chinese papers remained far below those produced in the United States, the United Kingdom, and Germany, China has significantly narrowed its gap with other countries in producing the top 1% highly cited articles (shown in Fig. 5C), surpassing Japan in 2005 and reaching parity with Germany and the United Kingdom around 2009. The China:US ratio in number of highly cited articles climbed sharply from 6% in 2001 to 31% in 2011. Patent applications from China have also increased sharply since 2000 (44) (Fig. S7).

Quote:

Knowing that capital investment alone would not make Chinese science strong, the Chinese government has also tried to attract talent from aboard by targeting overseas Chinese-born scientists, especially those working in the United States. Two programs were designed to encourage them to return to China. The Changjiang Scholars Program, which began in 1998, first offered the scientists incentives that were mostly on a short-term visiting basis. Then, in 2008, the government launched the Thousand Talent Program called “The Recruitment Program of Global Experts” with the explicit goal of raiding first-tier foreign research institutions for senior-level scientists. Recruitment packages typically include a high salary, research funds and space, and a standard tax-free relocation allowance in the amount of US$160,449 (35). Aided in part by a global financial crisis, the program attracted numerous overseas Chinese scientists back to China. Even as the number of students studying abroad continued to increase, the ratio of returnees to exits rose from 30.56% in 2007 to 38.54% in 2008, and again to 47.23% in 2009 (36). By April 2012, the program had attracted 2,263 scientists to work in China (37).

Quote:

Chinese scientists have an earnings advantage relative to these professionals, whereas American scientists face a disadvantage. Engineers in both countries enjoy about a 25% premium over scientists. In China, scientists earn 25% more than social scientists, 13% more than medical doctors, and 5% more than lawyers, whereas American scientists earn 7% less than social scientists, 50% less than medical doctors, and 34% less than lawyers. These results indicate that the financial incentives for working in science are stronger in China than in the United States. When talented youth face alternative career options, everything else being equal, more Chinese would be attracted to science than Americans.

****

It does not seem unlikely to me that China can become a center of technology and science. Chinese-origin scientists have been a large contributing force to American science, and they are, in increasing number, returning to mainland China to contribute to their country. Currently, the working condition in the West is still far better than that of China, so many Chinese scientists are still attracted to the West. But is that going to stay the way it currently is? I picture the following scenario:

As Western population dynamics change, white people get thinned out and the West become overrun with third-world immigrants and their offsprings, oversea Chinese say "Fuck it! Let's go home" and return to their motherland and bring their knowledge and skills with them, building a technologically advanced China.

Does this scenario seem implausible to you?

3. The idea that China is uninterested in invading other countries is simply incorrect, if you look at history closely. Just ask a random Vietnamese if he thinks whether China has been an invader. Nobody knows this better than a Vietnamese. VN's history is the history of being occupied by China and fighting off China's invasion. Due to a natural landscape that is unfavorable for non-tropical plain-dweller and guerrilla tactics, the Vietnamese managed to regain and protect their independence. But they have always been wary of China's aggression. They hate China with a passion (even though their culture is heavily influenced by China, and they still love to consume many Chinese cultural products such as TV dramas (Shanghai Bund, Journey to the West, Romance of Three Kingdoms, etc) so much that probably know more about Chinese history than their own - it's kind of a hilarious love-hate relationship) Korea too has been invaded by China multiple times. So do not think that China will simply mind their own country once they got big and strong.

---------

Random rant: if the Chinese government listen to my advice, their future would be more certain . Want a strong culture? Make this song a compulsory song to be sung before the masculinity classes taught to every boy:
Cantonese version:

Mandarin ver:

(Notice that hero (haohan) here literally means (a) Good Han(man), which is better translated as (a) honorable man. The fact that manly songs like this are produced and sung in Chinese seems like a very positive phenomenon to me.)

The class ends by singing this song:

Weekend work hour ends by singing this simple song:

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(04-21-2017 12:38 AM)Suits Wrote:  

The very fact that Chinese drivers commonly run over pedestrians they've struck a few extra times to ensure that they are dead (so that they don't have to pay for their long term medical treatment) should tell you everything that you need to know.

[Suits]

(04-21-2017 03:35 PM)Lunostrelki Wrote:  

Let's not forget that in the last 100+ years, China has had terrible governance and terrible geopolitical luck, and yet they're still in second place today. Pretty much all its social discord (people shitting on subways, failure to queue, etc.) can be traced back to the chaos of the warlord era, the Cultural Revolution, and other manmade disasters.

No it can't. I've had a moderate interest for over a decade now in locating antique travel journals on China that are at least 100 years old and then reading them.

The behavior you see in China today has been going on for a long, long time.

(04-21-2017 03:35 PM)Lunostrelki Wrote:  

A more recent phenomenon we will be seeing the end of is the absolute godlike status of money that took off in the 1980s and was really enshrined after June 4th 1989.

Incorrect. Money has had a godlike status for a long damn time in China.

I'm quoting here from a 150 year old travel journal:

"The Chinese is born with this taste for traffic, which grows with his growth, and strengthens with his strength. The first thing a child longs for is a sapeck, the first use that is makes of its speech and intelligence is to learn to articulate the names of coins, when his little fingers are strong enough to hold the pencil, it is with making figures that he amuses himself, and as soon as the tiny creature can speak and walk, he is capable of buying and selling. In China you need never fear sending a child to make a purchase, you may rely on it, he will not allow himself to be cheated."

(04-21-2017 03:35 PM)Lunostrelki Wrote:  

Quote:

Previous posters are misrepresenting my position as "China is taking over the world." That is too simplistic - all I'm saying is that the greatest challenge to the West is going to come from an ever more powerful China, and this forum and the entire gaga Trump alt-right movement is completely not ready for it. China will expand their presence in other countries and they will have to kowtow to them to some degree.

Based on Trump's recent meetings with Xi, this is already happening.

Yep. Dead right. This has been going on for a while now. Thailand basically does whatever China tells them to at this point.

[Liberty Sea]

I've to second what Suits said above here. People often said that Mao destroyed China's traditional culture and common trust, that Chinese people are so treacherous and materialistic are due to the Cultural Revolution. This is incorrect. The Chinese have always been cunning. Throughout history, China have gone through countless war and political infighting, with the resource/population ratio always high. So to survive they have to be cunning, as Arado said. But would they stop being cunning once they get out of scarcity? I doubt that. I'm afraid that cunningness has gotten to their DNA. Perhaps they have never been more ruthless and cunning than they are now, and perhaps they will be less cunning and ruthless when things got better, but something of this nature will remain with them.

Do not think that Confucianism has made them moral and idealistic. Some are, but for most politicians it's only a tool to control the people (with the concept of loyalty to the emperor). Behind the idealism of Confucianism is the pragmatism of Legalism - this has been the ruling strategy of Chinese elites for thousands of years: Confucianism on the outside, Legalism on the inside. (外儒内法) When reading Chinese history you have to interpret the action of the Chinese powers in light of cost-benefit calculus, trying to see what economic-political gains they could have, and not in light of moral imperatives or mere stupidity on the part of some parties.

The old China's world was always a dog-eat-dog world, which caused the Chinese to have a starkly pragmatic view of life. Moral idealism is not close to the human heart, as they say. This is reflected in a lot of Chinese idioms:
人无横财不富，马无夜草不肥
Men without dishonest money do not become rich, horse without night grass do not become fat.
弱肉强食，适者生存
The weak become meat, the strong get to eat, the fit ones survive. (quite the social Darwinism here)
人爱富的，狗咬贫的
People love the rich, dogs bite the poor.
人情冷暖
The human heart goes from warm to cold (unreliable).
礼在人情在
The gift remains, the heart remains.
人直不富，港直不深
A straightforward man cannot become rich, a straight harbor is not deep.
识时务者为俊杰
The excellent man is he who recognizes the flow.
无毒不丈夫
He who is without poison (cunning ruthlessness) is not a real/grand man.
爾虞我詐
You deceive, I deceive back.
无事献殷勤，非奸即盗
One who provides care without needing anything from you, is either a deceiver or a thief.
A reasonable advice for one who want to live decently in such a cruel world:
害人之心不可有，防人之心不可无
While you not have the intention to harm people in your heart, you must not lack the the alertness to guard against people.

This one is particularly cynical even for the Chinese (which color of pill is it?):
夫妻本是同林鸟，大难临头各自飞
Wife and husband are like birds in the same forest, in time of disaster (great misfortune) each flies their own way.

The Chinese love to play mind game. One sign is that the 36 strategies have become common idioms known to almost any literate man. And they use idioms a lot, even in a casual story. The Chinese stock of idioms are so rich that they provide convenient expressions for almost any situation.
While the Chinese do not lack proverbial phrases that advise people to be good (which apparently mostly came from scholarly books), the amount of cynical/pragmatic ones are not in the less.

[Suits]

Liberty Sea, what's your experience in China?