[Rhyme or Reason]

I've been thinking about this lately. A close friend and bandmate of mine has been coming to me for advice on his girlfriend. I usually red pill him in what little ways I can. Before he met me and we started this band he hadn't been laid in years. So now for the first time in years he's getting some (albeit from a less than stellar looking broad).

They've only been dating for about 2 months, and he's already come to me twice to tell me about his misgivings. Both cases represented HUGE red flags and I told him as such. He even tried to dump her but caved the minute the waterworks and promises to "change" came out.

So here's my dilemma. It won't be long before he comes seeking advice from me again. I'm thinking I shouldn't give him any. After all he's displayed shocking levels of naivety and unwillingness to stand his ground, and frankly, act in his own best interest. What I'm trying to avoid is a situation where I'm telling him to drop her and she's tugging him the other way, leading to a stand off where I'm suddenly in a position where I'm a "barrier to his/her happiness" thus leading to resentments on both side and a hostile band environment.

Plus we know who's side he will be on in that case. Experience has taught me as much.

So what do, RVF?

[Mufasa]

Sad to say but she's going to really have to burn his ass for him to at least consider being open to your advice. I know I had to be worked over hard by girls a solid three times before running into red pill truths via google search had any effect.

IMO be on the lookout for his emotional highs and especially the lows as opportunities to inspire him to become more.

[Rhyme or Reason]

(11-21-2016 11:41 AM)Mufasa Wrote:  

Sad to say but she's going to really have to burn his ass for him to at least consider being open to your advice. I know I had to be worked over hard by girls a solid three times before running into red pill truths via google search had any effect.

IMO be on the lookout for his emotional highs and especially the lows as opportunities to inspire him to become more.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion as that reflects my own experience as well. I'd like to spare him that pain, but it may not be possible.

So when he comes crying to me again, my options are:

1. Tell him I have no comment
2. Give him blue pill advice in order to hasten his demise, he wouldn't buy it unless I convince him I've had a change of heart or some lame shit like that
3. Tell him I'm not going to advise him further and tell him exactly why.


None of the above sound very appealing at all.

[polar]

The thing with people who see you as a guru - if your advice works for them, they'll pat themselves on the back for being smart enough to ask you. If it doesn't, they'll curse you behind your back instead.

You can't give him advice he's not prepared for.

"I'm not sure, I'd hate to give you advice not knowing all of the details (make something up - ie you don't know the girl's personality well). Do what you think is best. Either way, life is a learning experience."

[Mufasa]

2) Is a no go because when it blows up he can blame you; that won't drive him to the red pill.

I think option 1 is the best move. Something like "i don't know check google". Thing about inspiration is you're trying to get him to do whatever because he desires to do it. Maybe you steer him towards something where he just "happens" to come across some red pill shit. He'll probably reject it but at least it will be in his head.

Now that I think about it...option two may have some serious potential if you can maneuver the blame game that follows. Definitely the highest risk-reward.

[Meister Eckhart]

(11-21-2016 11:25 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

I've been thinking about this lately. A close friend and bandmate of mine has been coming to me for advice on his girlfriend. I usually red pill him in what little ways I can. Before he met me and we started this band he hadn't been laid in years. So now for the first time in years he's getting some (albeit from a less than stellar looking broad).

They've only been dating for about 2 months, and he's already come to me twice to tell me about his misgivings. Both cases represented HUGE red flags and I told him as such. He even tried to dump her but caved the minute the waterworks and promises to "change" came out.

So here's my dilemma. It won't be long before he comes seeking advice from me again. I'm thinking I shouldn't give him any. After all he's displayed shocking levels of naivety and unwillingness to stand his ground, and frankly, act in his own best interest. What I'm trying to avoid is a situation where I'm telling him to drop her and she's tugging him the other way, leading to a stand off where I'm suddenly in a position where I'm a "barrier to his/her happiness" thus leading to resentments on both side and a hostile band environment.

Plus we know who's side he will be on in that case. Experience has taught me as much.

So what do, RVF?

Wash your hands of the situation. I had a friend in the same circumstances, and while I was (and still am) a recovering beta, the guy in question remained in denial. Long story short, the last time he came for advice from the "guru", he ended up acting in contradiction to it and then threw him under the bus by telling his girlfriend what he was advised to do.

They aren't really friends anymore after he betrayed him, and the guy ended up marrying the girl. So honestly the best thing to do is as others suggested, if confronted with seeking advice, is to not give him any.

[kaotic]

It's either all or nothing.

Giving game, advice, and truths in doses only does so much.

Sometimes you need to go all out to finally breakdown those beta walls (sometimes a woman does that by burning you as Mufasa has hinted at).

You only can save so many men and open so many eyes to the truth.

A simple saying that we all know: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"


The other side of this is to let it burn down so he can rise from the ashes.

I'd give this guy one more chance (3 strikes rule) if he doesn't change, then let it go. Start giving him generalities and pleasantries that will soothe his hamster. Stop going into detail and stop reaching out to him as much.

If he gets mad or calls you out on it it - then be firm with him on why you're not in a position to give a man advice who won't listen.

[Rawmeo]

Don't start thinking about blue pill advice. A simple "I'm no longer in position to give you advice, since you ignored my advice last time. Once you start applying what I told you, come back and I'll give you some more".

[Frank Rook]

(11-21-2016 11:49 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

(11-21-2016 11:41 AM)Mufasa Wrote:  

Sad to say but she's going to really have to burn his ass for him to at least consider being open to your advice. I know I had to be worked over hard by girls a solid three times before running into red pill truths via google search had any effect.

IMO be on the lookout for his emotional highs and especially the lows as opportunities to inspire him to become more.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion as that reflects my own experience as well. I'd like to spare him that pain, but it may not be possible.

So when he comes crying to me again, my options are:

1. Tell him I have no comment
2. Give him blue pill advice in order to hasten his demise, he wouldn't buy it unless I convince him I've had a change of heart or some lame shit like that
3. Tell him I'm not going to advise him further and tell him exactly why.


None of the above sound very appealing at all.

I would go with No.3. The tough love approach. With some men at some point, the patient understanding pat on the back works.
At other times, they just need to get their behinds kicked with harsh honest truth. Otherwise, the cycle perpetuates itself & your time & sanity get leeched.

I've been on both sides myself. As the stubborn fool too blind to follow good actionable advice from times past & now in recent years as someone who gets to dispense advice to a few of these types. Honest, well intentioned bitter medicine needs to be given sometimes.

[Foolsgo1d]

From my experience, a man who constantly seeks another man's guidance on women whilst he is in a relationship with that woman, getting consistent sex for a while etc, will let it slip to the woman he is getting help on how to deal with her.

If she suspects this is the case she will turn him against you and more than likely he will keep with the pussy rather than trying to find more.

[armenia4ever]

I've got a different POV on this.


You want to plant the seeds. For all intensive purposes, you are a parent trying to guide your kid in the right direction. You can't force them, but you can try to give them the tools to succeed.

They might not do it right away - sometimes out of pride, the inability to shed their myopia, or just that they are still set in their ways. It takes time and patience.

My dad was somewhat red-pilled. Believe it or not, for a bit when I was younger I was determined to hold opposing positions to his, and defend them even if I secretly suspected they were in error or need of adjustment.

This included me (1) stubbornly defending the French revolution as not that bad, (2) feminism as a good thing, (3) that girls wanted a guy to cry in their arms and be vulnerable, (4) that a traditional wife was overrated, (5) that how I dressed didn't effect how people perceived me, (6) that worldview was of prime importance, (7) how children and a multigenerational strategy were the future, (8) that the public schools would corrupt children and indoctrinate them, etc. The list goes on.

I knew intrinsically that some of it was faulty. I just didn't want to be wrong and I had a lot of pride. When I found the manosphere, I realized just how right he was about so much. Doug Wilson, who literally wrote, "Poems For Patriarchs" and was loathed by feminists was someone who I thought was simply macho and wasn't being fair to women.

What brought me past my point of stubbornness was finally hitting a kind of bottom. Many people know the truth, they just don't want to admit it - its too painful. They have to be brought to a point where it's too painful to stay in their current ways. Patience in this case is your most cherished ally to seeing them through.

How come I couldn't get a girlfriend? How come I was still a virgin? Why didn't girls like nice guys? Why did all the Christian girls go for the non Christian player types? How come my semi lite feminist views at the time weren't attracting girls?

You have to be ready to completely shed your oldself. Pride has been the downfalls of many empires and many of today's modern betas are no exception. Have patiences. Keep planting the seed. Eventually a situation will occur with prompts a domino effect - one that will lead to a redpilling.

[kaotic]

(11-21-2016 01:00 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

From my experience, a man who constantly seeks another man's guidance on women whilst he is in a relationship with that woman, getting consistent sex for a while etc, will let it slip to the woman he is getting help on how to deal with her.

If she suspects this is the case she will turn him against you and more than likely he will keep with the pussy rather than trying to find more.

VERY good thing to bring up - I completely slipped on mentioning this.

This could make things even more toxic for your bandmate and you.

It's seemingly obvious at this point to stop giving him advice since he isn't heeding it.

[Rhyme or Reason]

I agree with pretty much everything posted here. Damn some guys just love to divulge everything to their chick, I'll never understand it.

[XPQ22]

(11-21-2016 11:49 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

1. Tell him I have no comment
2. Give him blue pill advice in order to hasten his demise, he wouldn't buy it unless I convince him I've had a change of heart or some lame shit like that
3. Tell him I'm not going to advise him further and tell him exactly why.

Just tell him that your position is as it's likely always been: he should sleep with more girls.

Not telling him to drop her, or not drop her.

It's not specific, but it's certainly not wrong.

[Baphomet]

I would go with #3, and I would explain it this way.

"I really want to be able to help you, brother. It's easy for anyone who knows you to see that your relationship is not going well. You're the one who's not accepting that as fact and acting on it. You're a good guy, and too many times the problem with good guys is that they just have to really crash into the bottom themselves. That's the only time that they act or worse, become a victim her actions. Then it's just a long way back from all the pain.

So my advice really won't help you now. You want the soothing effect of hearing good advice without having to summon the courage to act on it. And I just can't do that to you or to myself."

[General Stalin]

He is not ready for the red pill. He needs to have his heart broken more before he can grow up and mature beyond his sophomoric views of love, women, and relationships.

When he comes to wine about it to you just be there for him the way a friend needs to be. He doesn't want to listen, he just wants someone to listen to him and tell him shit that will make him feel better. At the end of the day he is going to do what he is going to do. People need to be ready to change before they can open their mind to other peoples guidance. Sounds like he is not.

[TornadoByProxy]

Tell him he needs to be more romantic. Tell him to buy her flowers. Tell him that he needs to share his emotions with her more often. Tell him to text her once he gets up and when he goes to bed EVERY night. Tell him women love that.

Tell him to surprise her and stop by her house with wine and a movie on a saturday night.

Tell him to friend her family and friends on facebook. Tell him to comment on every post on her timeline to show he cares. Tell him to post pictures of them together on his timeline and tag her in every one.

Tell him to do all these things and she will dump him in no time. Only THEN can you start red pilling him.

[XPQ22]

(11-21-2016 04:42 PM)TornadoByProxy Wrote:  

Tell him he needs to be more romantic. Tell him to buy her flowers. Tell him that he needs to share his emotions with her more often. Tell him to text her once he gets up and when he goes to bed EVERY night. Tell him women love that.

Tell him to surprise her and stop by her house with wine and a movie on a saturday night.

Tell him to friend her family and friends on facebook. Tell him to comment on every post on her timeline to show he cares. Tell him to post pictures of them together on his timeline and tag her in every one.

Tell him to do all these things and she will dump him in no time. Only THEN can you start red pilling him.

Given what we know of Red_Pillage, he'd probably just start wondering at what point RP spent some time in Manchuria...

You're incapable of that level of incompetence!

[Dream Medicine]

Red_Pillage, good topic.

I think you've got some great advice so far - I'd tend to agree with General Stalin and armenia4ever, in that (a) he may need to hit bottom before he's ready to rise up, (b) he feels comfortable confiding in you and he will need an open ear sometimes, and © having patience and planting small seeds is a more effective strategy.

(11-21-2016 11:49 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

So when he comes crying to me again, my options are:

1. Tell him I have no comment
2. Give him blue pill advice in order to hasten his demise, he wouldn't buy it unless I convince him I've had a change of heart or some lame shit like that
3. Tell him I'm not going to advise him further and tell him exactly why.

None of the above sound very appealing at all.

I would disagree with the above because of the following:

1. You have stated that he is close to you, therefore if you shut the door of communication your relationship could worsen.
2. This will be incongruent and you will feel worse for it.
3. Explaining your frustration and reasoning may be a better option than #1, however I still think the better option is to give him some more time, even if it can be annoying if he ignores your advice.

If he's a good friend I don't think being strict with the warnings (e.g., point 3) or giving him harsh reality checks is going to be effective, due to the nature of slow behavioural change processes and the risk of becoming a clear enemy to the girl (credit to Foolsgo1d).

Whilst many of us here stumbled across pickup or red pill theory following a shock to the system, our intellectual awakening nonetheless occured not in one step, but in a series of steps. This theory, as highlighted by Prochaska and colleagues as per the below diagram [1], shows change as an upward spiral process, involving progress through a series of stages until reaching the "lasting exit":



Your friend appears to be in the stage of contemplation, in which he is aware of some problems (red flags) however is unwilling to act on them (dump the girl and/or start meeting others). What I have learnt over many years is that just because someone is aware of a pressing problem, does not mean that they will take urgent action, if any. As noted by armenia4ever: "Many people know the truth, they just don't want to admit it - its too painful. They have to be brought to a point where it's too painful to stay in their current ways. Patience in this case is your most cherished ally to seeing them through."

Now, in some cases there will be nothing you can do - nothing - that will make a guy change his mind. In others, you can have a role in his change, although he must be the driving force. Only you can sense the likelihood of any change occurring and also how much effort you are willing to put into this.

In any case, if you post up an example conversation (albeit somewhat reworded for privacy reasons) that could be useful for allowing specific feedback, e.g., what principles of motivational interviewing [2] you could further implement:

1. Express empathy through reflective listening.
2. Develop discrepancy between clients' goals or values and their current behavior.
3. Avoid argument and direct confrontation.
4. Adjust to client resistance rather than opposing it directly.
5. Support self-efficacy and optimism.

Links:

[1] http://triumphwellness.com/the-5-stages-of-change/
[2] https://www.aipc.net.au/articles/princip...erviewing/

[AneroidOcean]

Re-word as appropriate. The only reason it's worth even this much is because you have a band/friendship with the guy.

"I'm removing unecessary drama from my life. You're my friend and I care about you, but I also care a lot about myself. You've proven through your actions twice now that you won't let me help you. I care about you and don't want this to affect our friendship so I choose to not be involved in your relationship."

[Rhyme or Reason]

(11-21-2016 05:05 PM)XPQ22 Wrote:  

(11-21-2016 04:42 PM)TornadoByProxy Wrote:  

Tell him he needs to be more romantic. Tell him to buy her flowers. Tell him that he needs to share his emotions with her more often. Tell him to text her once he gets up and when he goes to bed EVERY night. Tell him women love that.

Tell him to surprise her and stop by her house with wine and a movie on a saturday night.

Tell him to friend her family and friends on facebook. Tell him to comment on every post on her timeline to show he cares. Tell him to post pictures of them together on his timeline and tag her in every one.

Tell him to do all these things and she will dump him in no time. Only THEN can you start red pilling him.

Given what we know of Red_Pillage, he'd probably just start wondering at what point RP spent some time in Manchuria...

You're incapable of that level of incompetence!

LOL

Those were my thoughts exactly when reading that. It could have worked if I hadn't already shot my mouth off about my thoughts on women and the world. He would smell bullshit if I tried to do a 180. I think stalin's right. When and if he comes to me again I'll just offer my support but not advice.

[LeoneVolpe]

(11-21-2016 04:42 PM)TornadoByProxy Wrote:  

Tell him he needs to be more romantic. Tell him to buy her flowers. Tell him that he needs to share his emotions with her more often. Tell him to text her once he gets up and when he goes to bed EVERY night. Tell him women love that.

Tell him to surprise her and stop by her house with wine and a movie on a saturday night.

Tell him to friend her family and friends on facebook. Tell him to comment on every post on her timeline to show he cares. Tell him to post pictures of them together on his timeline and tag her in every one.

Tell him to do all these things and she will dump him in no time. Only THEN can you start red pilling him.

^ That's actually quite genius, albeit in a "Jigsaw" type way.

Your friend is so stuck in his blue pill ways, he needs something to "shock" him out of it. Reminds me of that scene in "The Forty-Year-Old Virgin" where Jay (Romany Malco) gives Andy (Steve Carell) advice he says "doesn't feel right," and Jay reminds him, "Of course it don't feel right! What has felt right for you doesn't work! You need to try some wrong, dawg."

In all seriousness though, I'm not sure I can offer anything beyond what others have already suggested, but I think some tough love is in order here. Perhaps you could say something along the lines of, "You know who likes to talk about their problems and do nothing about them? Women. Men aren't interested in discussing "feelings," they produce results. If you're not willing to take the necessary steps to solve your problem, then stop bitching about it. Accept that this is your life, and it's how things are going to be now."

[Kona]

You've tried twice. The third time will NOT be the charm.

Accept the fact that this dude will always take this girls side.

Next time he asks for advice tell him that the band (be sure to say that first) and his friendship are too important to you, and you want to stay out of it.

He's never going to leave her. Just wait a while for some better dick to come around and be on his side when she leaves him.

Just don't be the "I told you so" guy.

Aloha!

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Just like in business, persuasion is best provoked from the inside. He needs to sell himself on the prospects of his future with this girl.

You don't need to give advice. You just need to ask questions that let him come to the right conclusions on his own.

Ex: Huh, seems like y'all are having some problems. Maybe it's not that big of a deal. What does she bring to the table that's a positive in your life?

What percentage of time is all good, no problems? 75%? 90%? 1 bad day a week? A month?

If it is sex or companionship, that's what all girls bring. Some of them even do that without being a pain in the ass more than once or twice a month (ideally once a year or less would be great).

What does he bring to the table? What is he doing for her that other guys haven't? Does she see these things as positively as he does?

If you can get him to admit she's kind of a bitch but he likes getting laid, it's much easier to ask, what do you think is the best decision to make if you want to be happy again? Stay with this problem, or start over with a new girl?

Just be a good friend. Ask tough questions without telling him what to do or letting your opinion of his girl be influential. It's just a conversation, after all.