[subterfuge]

Not that I ever tend to get anywhere remotely close to kissing someone from cold approach, but for those of you that do, do you ever say certain lines etc before 'going for it'!

I kind of imagine it'd be a bit weird to just be talking - even if you were in isolation, and then just going for the kiss.

I notice that in some of RSD max's vids, he always says something like ''If you weren't so tall i'd totally go for the kiss now'' and then, based on her reaction, he usually knows whether he has a green light or not.

Other people I see often blatantly tell the girl that they think she is super hot as they get very close to her. And again, based on her reaction they have a good idea of what to do now. (I note that most pickup places i look at seem to generally be against VERBALISING interest in the girl, though?)

But I can't imagine actually getting the makeout without some sort of 'step' such as those above. Just talking to a girl, maybe even using kino and then just going for it just seems a bit weird in my head. I kind of imagine talking to a girl and we are bantering , and she is maybe even letting me touch her arms and stuff, but then going for the kiss and her being like ''what the hell are you doing!"!?'' kind of thing, lol
Do any of you guys tend to always verbalise intent in some way just before going for it? Do you always use a certain line?

I also wonder if verbalising maybe also makes it easier for the girl to show her interest back, which in turn makes it a much easier 'green light'?

[Phoenix]

I don't think I've ever "verbalized intent" in my whole life. That just sounds like an awkward tension killer.

Does "using kino" mean touching?

Just get her physically closer to you. If she will allow you to put arms round her, pull her closer etc, she'll let you kiss her soon enough. You'll get there with experience; but no you don't verbalize it, and RSD makes good YouTube vids, not good advice.

[XXL]

As always, it depends. It depends on the circumstances you're both in at a time. If you want me to be specific and precise then I'd say that there are different types of kiss.

The crazy and spontaneous one when you're both just having super fun and it just happens out of nowhere. Here it's fine to say something direct and suggestive cause it will only amp up the vibe and sexy vibe between you and her that is already high. So those lines you hear from guys on video do the job because of this super fun vibe that's already there. In such scenario it's OK to say stuff like "you have no idea how my lips taste" or "close your eyes I won't disappear I promise" or "don't kiss me cause my hard on will rip my pants" or "if you didn't dance so well I'd kiss you but now I'm enjoying it too much". Just some funny cheeky stuff like this is OK.

The romantic one that happens slower cause there is this tension in the air. With romantic kiss where you both are more calm and relaxed it's more about sexual tension, deep eye contact and proximity. That's how you recognize if it's good to try. You can be sitting on a couch next to her and just looking deeply in her eyes and that's it. She might start to feel very hot inside. She might start looking at your lips intensively. She might look you up and down as if she want to undress you with her eyes. She might get closer as if she wanted to touch you and be caressed. She might go into this mini trance. That's how you know.

To be even more scientific [I hate that to be honest] you might be in a situation that is something in between. Not crazy but not too romantic. Like standing on a bus stop and just talking about stuff but you catch yourself looking at her lips and completely not listening to her. In such scenario you can say "wait..", do a pause, get closer and kiss. It's very charming to do it this way. It's surprising, uncommon, exciting. It's good when you're unpredictable. This "wait" thing is great, it completely breaks her train of thoughts and introduces sexual tension as a preview of you kiss. It takes some social intuition to pull it off cause one thing is to know how to do it and another thing is to actually do it well. I can see it failing hard when it's done in wrong moment when you with a girl in elevator as she's talking about her exams and you decide to try it out what XXL told you. So you go "wait", she's like "what?" and you still don't recognize it's bad moment so you go in and she's completely weirded out. So pay attention to the girl. You can try it when there is some nice vibe in the air between you both but again, it's a matter of reading cue and social intuition.

[subterfuge]

Thanks, you two.

OK, another question.

Do you tend to always try to lead to conversation to a certain topic in basically every encounter with someone who you like? For example, the topic of dating? A topic where it gives you more of a chance to have a sexual subcontext in the air?

So whether you're talking too a girl at a bar, or your pretty new housemaid, at some point, after talking/teasing/kino etc, will you always bring up a certain topic?

PS - Is there anywhere in particular where one can see VERY VERY detailed field reports. Almost in script form. I just feel as though I can't visualize a successful interactions and I need to study successful pulls to better see the 'patterns'.

[Phoenix]

If you read a very very detailed report of a tennis game, will you become a good tennis player? Nope, good tennis players are made in the tennis court, not in the library. Pick something to work on each time, and review it after. Don't think you can plot it out, it doesn't work like that. The parts of your brain that plan scenarios are not the parts that interact with women.

On conversation: think "deep, broad and engaging". Deep: you drive the conversation deep for any given topic; i.e. think and ask "why" rather than "what". Broad: you should be able to move the conversation to a variety of different topics. When I started out I had an actual list which I would sequence through whenever the conversation lulled. Engaging: information exchange is boring by itself. There needs to be "play" in the conversation. This means creative thinking (such as humour, teasing, bullshitting etc).

All those come from practicing them.

The "pattern" of an interaction is very simple if you think about it.
Start of the pattern: to talk to a girl.
End of the pattern: you stick your dick in the girl.

Exercise: Think though the stages in between. Where does sex happen? Usually in a bed in private. Where is that? Usually in your house. If it can't be in your house where would it be? In a hotel. How does she end up in your house? You ask her to be in your house. Where do you ask her to come to your house? On a date. How do you get her on a date? You contact her and ask her for a date. How do you get her contact details? You meet her.

All the details & timing etc are filled in with actively acquired experience.

[XXL]

(10-26-2016 05:17 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  

Do you tend to always try to lead to conversation to a certain topic in basically every encounter with someone who you like? For example, the topic of dating? A topic where it gives you more of a chance to have a sexual subcontext in the air?

So whether you're talking too a girl at a bar, or your pretty new housemaid, at some point, after talking/teasing/kino etc, will you always bring up a certain topic?

It depends on what you want and what you expect.

it's really simple. If you want to have a nice conversation and have fun then you can be all over the place with topics and just go with the flow all you want. This way it's uncommon that it will result in intimate situation cause nobody's leading toward that goal. If you actually want something to happen then you have to lead

Remember one thing. GAME IS ABOUT BEING A *LEADER*. This is the true definition of game. You must lead on every level, conversationally, physically, logistically and sexually. That's how game is played. You lead the girl towards certain "place" whatever that place is to you. Sometimes it goes smooth, usually it does not.

So... if you know certain lines, topics or circumstances work in your favor then why not use it? Thing is, you don't need to always lead the conversation at all times cause that's super try hard. But, there are certain moments in an interaction where you have to take full charge and steer it in a direction you want it to go. For instance.. she asks you if you have a GF so you ask her the same. Now you introduced very spicy topic about girls being bisexual etc. That thread might last for certain period of time so you can milk it as much as you want. But when it dies out, that's the crucial moment. That's where you have to do something to carry on. You can introduce different topic or move her somewhere or offer to drink something, or whatever. Basically it's time to DO something. That's how you lead.

To me there are two methods of leading. Normal one is when you take the lead and she follows you. The other one is baiting where you want a girl to do something with you and you tell her you/her cannot do it. You still lead cause you bait her to invest. It's very obvious what will happen when you tell a girl to not stand so closely to you cause her perfume make you dizzy. She will get closer. When you tell her not to go there [whatever place] with you she's likely to do it. You can lead like that throughout the whole interaction from hi to sex. It's possible.

I got carried away a bit but I wanted to put your question in a context.


TLDR: Yes, I usually bring up certain topics that I know work to my advantage.

[XPQ22]

(10-26-2016 12:53 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  

But I can't imagine actually getting the makeout without some sort of 'step' such as those above. Just talking to a girl, maybe even using kino and then just going for it just seems a bit weird in my head. I kind of imagine talking to a girl and we are bantering , and she is maybe even letting me touch her arms and stuff, but then going for the kiss and her being like ''what the hell are you doing!"!?''

If she's letting you touch her and not withdrawing, and she's standing close and say leaning in while at a noisy bar to hear you talk, and that first step of physical contact is going good, it means she likes you enough for you to make out if you can isolate, and the number of times I've been rejected on the kiss when she was giving me those signals was hmm...it's literally never happened.

So don't fret it.

[Prof. Ligate]

A couple of thoughts for you:

1. Be wary of following RSD closely
Cold approach pick-up adheres to the 'Pareto Principal' - ie. 80% of your results comes from 20% of the causes.

The 20% here is approaching, fun vibe, kino, isolating and closing.

RSD sells bootcamps and products by making you think the other 80% (verbalising intent included) is just as important.

It isn't.

2. Risk creepy
Over time you will get enough experience in interactions to know exactly when to go for it. At the moment you don't - so push harder for the kiss.

If you haven't been rejected for a kiss you're not pushing hard enough.

I know other guys will disagree with me here but it's the quickest way to learn. You can try to be 'Mr. Smooth' in a years time.

[Phoenix]

(10-29-2016 12:59 AM)Prof. Ligate Wrote:  

If you haven't been rejected for a kiss you're not pushing hard enough.

I know other guys will disagree with me here but it's the quickest way to learn.

Absolutely right. It's impossible to know a limit without going either side of it. And this limit has a trivial cost of going past it -- she just recoils. Indeed the recoil is a valuable source of information, the manner in which she recoils can tell you if: she likes you but isn't ready yet, she doesn't like you at all, and so on.

One of the most important reasons for pushing is screening out timewasters. Especially in countries like Japan, where there are expert and deliberate timewasters who will pass every other screen but still not get intimate with you. Indeed even the kiss is often not enough to screen them out, but it certainly lowers your risk.

As a simple example I met one girl in a club, who agreed to meet me for a date, and when I went for the kiss she recoiled like I was some kind of wierdo. Turned out she was just looking for attention and had a boyfriend she was still committed to. I could've lost multiple days on that girl, days I could've spent on another girl, if I hadn't screened like that.

Screening is critical for time risk management.

[XPQ22]

(10-29-2016 06:15 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

One of the most important reasons for pushing is screening out timewasters. Especially in countries like Japan, where there are expert and deliberate timewasters who will pass every other screen but still not get intimate with you. Indeed even the kiss is often not enough to screen them out, but it certainly lowers your risk.

As a simple example I met one girl in a club, who agreed to meet me for a date, and when I went for the kiss she recoiled like I was some kind of wierdo. Turned out she was just looking for attention and had a boyfriend she was still committed to. I could've lost multiple days on that girl, days I could've spent on another girl, if I hadn't screened like that.

One constant of game that's come to my attention from hanging on this forum for a while is that when it comes to young women, there are now girls like that the world over. Whether it's the streets of Shinjuku, or a Somerville hipster lounge a few miles down the road from Harvard U, I haven't had the opportunity to do a lot of travel but it sure seems that there's the same "program" happening in Western countries wherever one may go.

That's why one of the major things I wrote about in my online dating "mini-datasheet" was checking out the touch response situation as soon as is practicable. The timewasters can text you enthusiastically, agree to dates at whatever venue of your choice, look nice and laugh at your jokes, and even pay for your tab (as one woman in her 40s recently did for me ) but the one thing they can't fake is how they respond to attempts to be intimate.

And with some experience, you'll learn to start binning girls you cold approach at bars, daygame, or meet from the Internet pretty rapidly once you're one-on-one. After the better part of a year's experience I usually have a good sense within a half hour to 45 minutes whether I've got a green light to keep the night rolling, or I need to start thinking about my exit strategy. And it's not like 30 minutes in I've gone for a sloppy makeout already like a speed demon. I've likely barely even broken the "touch barrier" with some older women. I'm just observing how she sits near me, how close she stands near me when we're ordering drinks at the bar, does she brush my shoulder when we're walking, does she not freeze up and look uncomfortable when I touch her hands.

It's a little a sixth-sense; I often seem to find that when the 30-45 minute mark rolls around with one of the girls who isn't with it, I get a bit of a feeling of dread in my gut and there's a little voice saying "Dude, yeah she's smiling and laughing at your jokes, but do you see how she's sitting? She hasn't once tried to put herself in a position where you could make any side-to-side contact. And did you notice how when you took her hand in yours to emphasize some point, even though she didn't obviously draw away, it was cold and lifeless as a dead fish? Whatever her deal is, she's had plenty of time to check out your look and game, and she isn't into it."

Sadly, as I've gotten better over time, I've found the downer of game to be not constant uncertainty about whether this girl here will want to make out and perhaps move forward and this girl won't, but that young women's body language and non-verbal cues seem to be so generally predictable that I almost end up on automatic pilot.

One of the few occasions I've been legitimately sent for a loop on a date, with a girl who was giving me all the impressions of a dead-end suddenly doing a 180 and exploding into passion was, ironically, that one married girl. I'm sure everyone who puts in a fair amount of work gets hit with "black swans", from time to time.

[subterfuge]

So it sounds like maybe i've over-thinking it, and i'm looking for a 'step' which maybe doesn't exist?

Like something in between all of the teasing/talking/flirting/touching (game?) and the actual making out. But maybe it's about just going for it and assuming attraction if she hasn't been sick when you touch her!

I only have VERY FEW successful reference points in my head, and so I kind of find it impossible to actually VIZUALISE what success in certain situations might look like.

For example, I pulled in a bar once. I opened. I bantered and teased her. I started touching her a little bit. I told her that the reason I had approached her earlier was because I thought she was hot (a mistake in some peoples eyes from what I read) Then I invited her back to my place and we got in a cab. Then on the short walk from where the cab dropped her off back to my house, I just grabbed her and started kissing her. Then back at my place, straight to my room, and that was that.

But I find it so hard to vizualise how a 'pull' might look on, say, a girl who you work with, or maybe a family friend who is staying with you for a few days etc. I just can't picture it. Like a sort of mental block - probably because the tiny amount of success i've ever had has always been in club type environments on strangers

[elRey]

The first time I went for a proper kiss I was 15, with my second girlfriend in high school and it ended up only being a peck on the lips...after months of going out. Nowadays, there are some times I think it's appropriate to kiss a girl 1-5 minutes after meeting her for the first time. With practice you will wonder how you even asked this question.

As for timing...Sometimes it will come out of nowhere, a gap in the conversation maybe. Most times I try and kiss girls too early and they pull the 'turn away', and it's not always smooth... UNTIL YOU KISS THEN IT'S SMOOTH AF. Better too early than too late.

You have to take the risk. The funny thing is once you've done it so many times, the 'turn away' becomes so predictable and if you keep going for it every few minutes eventually she'll cave and go for it too.

Like others here I've had 'bad' nights where even after making out with 5+ girls I don't even get a girl back home. Once you get the practice you realise a few things, which have already been stated:

Be willing to look creepy. Take the risk. Push hard, push early. As an added bonus, as someone already said, you are saving time by filtering girls out who won't go anywhere.

[Meat Head]

If you have to verbalise intent you are not really attracted to the girl. If the girl of your dreams was standing in front of you, short of rape you would tear her clothes off.

[Noir]

My MO is usually direct nonverbals, indirect verbals for the first part of the interaction and I just let her comply with her body language.

If you get your look down and make her feel wanted and sexy with the way you interact with her, direct verbals are unnecessary.

You mentioned RSD so I'll try and approach your query with a bit more of a 'game approach'

- the way you look at her
- the way you invade her personal space and how she responds
- are you touching her and if so, are you doing it naturally? (never look at where you are touching her)
- can you build that sexual tension and keep it (push/pull)
- are you leading the interaction with your verbals and push/pulling with your non verbals?

a lot of the direct verbals that I will incorporate depend on

- isolation
- venue (is it a stiff place where I cannot really be in her personal space vs. a smoking area in a club/bar)
- how long ago i met her
- whats her vibe
- is she reciprocating/mirroring
- will it diffuse the sexual tension or build it
- can i control my urges
- how hot are you that you can get away without any shit sounding creepy (this is very context dependent especially if she is hotter or not in your mind than what she thinks she is vs if you or her are punching above your weight)

I went on a ramble but yeah. XXL also did a sweet lil analysis above, as usual.

You can always come out in the middle and tell her she smells good and pull in to her to get a better smell and gauge her interest based off that even but that depends on circumstance, if she smells nice of course, how long the interaction is going on for etc.

[Phoenix]

(10-30-2016 05:43 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  

I only have VERY FEW successful reference points in my head, and so I kind of find it impossible to actually VIZUALISE what success in certain situations might look like.

So stop thinking about it. Stop trying to visualize it. Just get out and discover by trial and error. 100% of the natural players you know of spent 1% of their time trying to visualize how things are, and spent 99% of their time discovering how things are. Question time is over, report back after you've taken more action.

[subterfuge]

I've already done the 'trial and error' thing on girls i've worked with in the past, but no luck. I tried kino on one girl I worked with, but I tihnk I made her feel weird. Another I wasn't sure how to progress from flirting to something more and I messed that up , too, Hence I think it makes sense to try to get a clue about what i'm supposed to be doing in them sort of situations. Like, people read something like 'bang' and it makes things a but clearer for what to do in clubs with strangers, but in some situations, I think i'd be happier having some sort of template in lieu of positive experiences. For example, maybe I should have saved any sort of flirting for some sort of 'date'.

I guess reading about something like 'social circle game' (not read much about that yet) etc could maybe help clear things up in my head since it's maybe kind of similar

[Lagavulin]

Intent should be communicated subconsciously by way of flirting, body language, touch and escalation.

Nothing will dry her up quicker than verbalising your intent, experienced guys can get away with this because they will already have employed the aforementioned techniques before upping the ante but if you try to verbalise your intent by skipping straight to it you will likely come off as awkward or creepy. Experienced dudes will also have read her signals and judged that it's the right thing to do at a given moment.

The other guys who have replied to your question will also verbalise their intent with absolute self assurance, I assume that you probably won't be at that level yet.

There are no short cuts.

Conversation, banter, flirting, body language etc all happens so much easier and more naturally when you're having fun and not in your head. It's hard to explain but it'll come when you let go of the insecurities and doubts that are flying about in your head.

Meditate, practice your conversation skills regularly, get on some dates - by whichever way works for you - and build up your experience. When you go out leave all that self defeating negative self talk behind and go enjoy yourself. Enjoy the process and don't become attached to the outcome.

[Kieran]

(10-26-2016 05:17 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  

Thanks, you two.

OK, another question.

Do you tend to always try to lead to conversation to a certain topic in basically every encounter with someone who you like? For example, the topic of dating? A topic where it gives you more of a chance to have a sexual subcontext in the air?

So whether you're talking too a girl at a bar, or your pretty new housemaid, at some point, after talking/teasing/kino etc, will you always bring up a certain topic?

PS - Is there anywhere in particular where one can see VERY VERY detailed field reports. Almost in script form. I just feel as though I can't visualize a successful interactions and I need to study successful pulls to better see the 'patterns'.

A very easy way to move things towards that topic is to simply ask who she is out with. You get to check logistics which is really important, and from there it's an easy switch towards saying something flirty if you want. For example:
"Who are you here with?"
"My two friends."
"So there's no jealous boyfriend that's going to come and beat me up for trying to chat you up."

[Prof. Ligate]

(10-31-2016 01:13 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  

I've already done the 'trial and error' thing on girls i've worked with in the past, but no luck.

Bro... stop the shit. This isn't true. Read what you said below

(10-31-2016 01:13 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  

I pulled in a bar once. I opened. I bantered and teased her. I started touching her a little bit. I told her that the reason I had approached her earlier was because I thought she was hot (a mistake in some peoples eyes from what I read) Then I invited her back to my place and we got in a cab. Then on the short walk from where the cab dropped her off back to my house, I just grabbed her and started kissing her. Then back at my place, straight to my room, and that was that.

You know how to pull. How much did you 'VISUALISE' anything in this situation?

Please take the good advice from this thread and put it into action before you get banned for trolling or something

(10-31-2016 01:13 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  

I guess reading about something like 'social circle game' (not read much about that yet) etc could maybe help clear things up in my head since it's maybe kind of similar

I'm going to give you a challenge. No game material for a month - you can only learn from your own experiences. Stop cramming your head full of BS and instead make mistakes with girls and grow from them