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A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection
#26

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Quote: (11-17-2015 07:05 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

I'm afraid I'm struggling to find a specific enough question to give you a meaningful answer.

From 1-4, assuming the trust was not in Brazil (doesn't have trust legislation and is not a common law country) and was in the BVI or something like that instead, there is no prima facie problem - providing there is no competing claim on the value.

The point with a trust is that its existence may not be known to any outside parties. For a court to rule it a sham, or to attempt to force disclosure, they have to know about it. So to give you a meaningful answer I'd have to come back to you with a bunch of questions - why is the court investigating, what is the original source of the capital, who is staking a claim to it, where specifically is it domiciled (for example, BVI as a crown dependancy is more likely to roll over than Panama, who has no ties to the UK), how much about the existence of the capital and its subsequent disposal is known to the court, etc etc?

I know it seems like I am being very obtuse, but your questions are at too great-a-level of abstraction for me to give you a meaningful response.

Apologies on not doing homework on Brazil. To further clarify this exercise let's say:
1)Court is investigating due to bankruptcy filing.
2)Source is Life savings(cash).
3)Ex-wife and creditors(say credit card co.) staking a claim.
4)Let's use Belize this time for the jurisdiction.
5)No one knows except for a transaction record showing money wired to a foreign bank account. The wire was done well ahead of time say 2 years before the BK filing.

Thanks for your expertise, I think many will get much out of this discussion.
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#27

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Just wanted to say thanks to those who are dropping knowledge.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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#28

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Quote: (11-17-2015 02:02 PM)jj90 Wrote:  

Quote: (11-17-2015 07:05 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

I'm afraid I'm struggling to find a specific enough question to give you a meaningful answer.

From 1-4, assuming the trust was not in Brazil (doesn't have trust legislation and is not a common law country) and was in the BVI or something like that instead, there is no prima facie problem - providing there is no competing claim on the value.

The point with a trust is that its existence may not be known to any outside parties. For a court to rule it a sham, or to attempt to force disclosure, they have to know about it. So to give you a meaningful answer I'd have to come back to you with a bunch of questions - why is the court investigating, what is the original source of the capital, who is staking a claim to it, where specifically is it domiciled (for example, BVI as a crown dependancy is more likely to roll over than Panama, who has no ties to the UK), how much about the existence of the capital and its subsequent disposal is known to the court, etc etc?

I know it seems like I am being very obtuse, but your questions are at too great-a-level of abstraction for me to give you a meaningful response.

Apologies on not doing homework on Brazil. To further clarify this exercise let's say:
1)Court is investigating due to bankruptcy filing.
2)Source is Life savings(cash).
3)Ex-wife and creditors(say credit card co.) staking a claim.
4)Let's use Belize this time for the jurisdiction.
5)No one knows except for a transaction record showing money wired to a foreign bank account. The wire was done well ahead of time say 2 years before the BK filing.

Thanks for your expertise, I think many will get much out of this discussion.

Please don't apologise, if there is uncertainty it must in part be because I have failed to give you the necessary information to ask the right questions in the first place. As I've already made a number of posts in this thread, a large part of the blame for any confusion must rest with me. I'm still not going to answer your questions directly, because they can't be answered in a vacuum. However, I will hopefully provide you with enough information to understand trust and foundation law, how it applies to asset protection, what might motivate you to create one in the first place, and what jurisdictions and methods you may consequently take advantage of to give effect to your intended purpose. I think in the process of doing so, you will get answers to your questions, and may have other questions you'd like to ask as a result.

I would like to apply a couple of caveats before I start:

1. I am not a practicing trust lawyer. I believe I have a strong grasp of the subject, but this is not the counsel of a professional.

2. It is an incredibly complicated area of law, that many lawyers fail to get to grips with. I had a hard time condensing what I knew at the time of my dissertation into only 10,000 words on a narrow topic. I am providing a broad overview, some of which may be overly simplified to allow for ease of understanding. If everyone hasn't abandoned the thread by the time I'm finished, hopefully certain oversimplifications or issues that are unclear can be addressed in subsequent comments.


And so...


Use of Trusts and Foundations for asset protection.

What is a trust?

The trust is the bastard child of a peculiarity of English Law, called equity. Equity was the remit of the Court of Chancery. This court was responsible for the development of most commercial law, fiduciary law, trusts, and one or two others, as well as important legal remedies such as the injunction, which the Courts of the Common Law were unwilling to provide.

The two courts merged over time (1875 to be precise), as equity had been a significant influence on decisions that were increasingly being taken in the Courts of the Common Law - all of the laws mentioned above in the Court of Chancery now being matters of strict legal rights. Trust law has always been an anomaly, in that it is based entirely in equity, meaning that even where someone is the legal owner of some value, if there is an equitable claim to that value, the court will overrule the legal right in favour of the equitable one.

In the case of the trust, equity imposes a stringent personal obligations on the legal owner of property to hold it for the benefit of another, such that he can no longer treat the property as his own. So, for example, if I settle some value 'on trust' for my children in equal shares on attainment of their 18th birthdays, and name you as trustee, I assign you legal title to the value (ie you may become the registered legal owner of my house), however, you are prohibited by equity (which is a mechanism of the court exclusively) from disposing with the property in any way other than what is allowed for under the trust provisions. Should you do so, you will be PERSONALLY liable to restore the value of the trust, and could even be sued on top of that for a loss of earnings if one was suffered as a result. Essentially, the law of equity imposes strict liability on a trustee, despite him being the legal owner. In the eyes of equity, my children are the rightful owners, and the courts will ensure that proper title is passed to them. Of course, the beneficiaries must know they have an equitable interest in the property, and only the beneficiary can bring an action against the trustee.


What is a foundation?

The law on private foundations came into existence in Liechtenstein in 1926 (making it extremely new as far as the case law goes). It is based on the concept of 'separate legal entity' (a civil code doctrine - ie jurisdictions that do not have 'equity', and therefore don't have trusts), which dates back to the 13th century (and a monk named Sinibaldo de Fieschi - who later became Pope Innocent IV). The purpose was to ensure religious institutions could be treated as legal persons in their own right. This legal fiction allowed monks to accept and hold property from donors in the name of their monastery - without offending their sacred vows.

The modern private foundation, very simply, is a separate legal entity, holding assets donated by a founder, suing and being sued in its own name, with a management board, and created for specific purposes (the primary purpose cannot be commercial!).


How do the two contrast?

The trust, being a concept of equity, exists entirely on the entent cordial of settlor, trustee and beneficiary until such time as there is a dispute, at which point you might say the trust crystallises, and a court will look at the intentions and any documents, and try to give effect to the settlor's wishes AT THE TIME HE CREATED THE TRUST. This means trusts can be created through verbal agreement, jotted down on a scrap of paper in the pub, or created by more formal means (gross over simplification of actual situation in UK).

A big part of the appeal of the trust is the lack of formalities typically associated with it. Foundations, being a type of corporate entity, must be registered with the host nation, and comply with a number of formality requirements.

Another key attraction of the trust is that the trust allows for proprietary interests to be enforced under it. This is critical, as the settlor's intention may have been to bestow upon the beneficiary a specific benefit (a particular house, diamond, etc), and these rights can be enforced against the trustee. The court, at the time of an action, will 'trace' through bank accounts and follow the value of the trust through a chain of transactions to try to ensure the beneficiaries receive the property in the form the settlor intended (oversimplification). By contrast, with a foundation, the beneficiary is essentially in the position of an unsecured creditor - ie they cannot enforce specific property rights against the foundation. If value, say a house in Brazil, is placed in the foundation to be passed on to your children, and the foundation council sell the house, a court will not force the foundation to go back out and re-buy the property, as they might with a trust (for which the trustee may have to pay any excess out of his own pocket).

The final key attraction is the enforcement of fiduciary duties. The trustee of a trust must always act in the beneficiaries' best interests (eye watering oversimplification), and will be liable for any failure to do so. Whilst a beneficiary of a foundation could bring a claim against the council for negligence, anything short of that is likely to leave them out of pocket, as foundation jurisdictions do not recognise the concept of fiduciary duty (for the most part).


This is a very brief overview of the two instruments, so oversimplified that I'm wincing. But if I can come to your questions very broadly, my answers might now make a bit more sense.

A key point of the above is that there exist many different instruments (there are all kinds of different trust arrangements, and jurisdictions which enforce different things differently) that you can use to protect your assets. The important thing, when you create such an instrument, is to understand why you are doing it, and what circumstances you hope to avoid.

For example, if you placed your life savings in trust, before you married your wife, and she is not named as a beneficiary of the trust on the trust instrument, it will be a lot harder for her to come after it than it would be if she were the beneficiary of the trust. But again, there is not enough information in the questions to really go into much more detail than this. If you are fraudulently filing for bankruptcy, and your wife can prove the existence of a trust with decent savings, the court may requisition the trust instrument. If it turns out you are the sole beneficiary of the trust, entitled to the capital value, then the court could conceivably order you to collapse the trust and take possession of the value. That is why I mentioned earlier that secrecy, or discretion at the very least, will always be your best protection. In this case the actual jurisdiction is unlikely to make much difference. Panama, although a very new jurisdiction for this stuff, is probably the most likely place to tell a UK court to fuck off. Belize, by contrast, has the army jungle training school where the various elite units go to train, has a good relationship with the UK, and is unlikely to do anything to upset them.

If as you suggest you have done a single lump sum transaction to a foreign bank account of your entire life savings, the court is likely to ask that bank for the details of who the account belongs to. If it belongs to H1N1's 'Ghengis the Russian Step' foundation, they are likely to put two and two together.

All of the above is not as clear as I'd like it to be, and there are all kinds of things that one could do, that are material considerations, but which aren't really worth mentioning unless they are to be given their context, which would affect the accuracy of the very simplified account I have given. I hope it is useful, if things are unclear, I will try to elaborate on specific points, if you are interested.
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#29

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

@H1N1, thanks for the great info. I'm sure many including myself are learning much.

I have tried to keep it abstract for the purpose so that all reading this thread can understand the basics and what to expect going down this road. Given the entire conversation thus far between everyone, I would like to bring this full circle and go back to a point I raised earlier and that you and WIA briefly brought up. That is, regardless of the intent, situation and legal fallout, if a person has liabilities in a certain country and wishes to get their assets out of that country if possible, the only real way to be sure is to cut all ties with that country and never go back.

Being in said country exposes oneself to enforcement, having assets onshore to confiscation, and unless you have committed a fairly serious crime or its a significant valued asset, I would argue based on my research thus far most creditors would not be willing to chase a person around the globe.

I will note that to those considering this that many precautions be taken, and you will have to hit the ground to do due diligence. Good luck.
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#30

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Quote: (11-17-2015 05:33 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Please don't apologise, if there is uncertainty it must in part be because I have failed to give you the necessary information to ask the right questions in the first place. As I've already made a number of posts in this thread, a large part of the blame for any confusion must rest with me.

What a gentlemen. I know, I know I am an H1N1 fan boy, but so humble in this post. Seriously.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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#31

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Quote: (11-17-2015 11:55 PM)jj90 Wrote:  

@H1N1, thanks for the great info. I'm sure many including myself are learning much.

I have tried to keep it abstract for the purpose so that all reading this thread can understand the basics and what to expect going down this road. Given the entire conversation thus far between everyone, I would like to bring this full circle and go back to a point I raised earlier and that you and WIA briefly brought up. That is, regardless of the intent, situation and legal fallout, if a person has liabilities in a certain country and wishes to get their assets out of that country if possible, the only real way to be sure is to cut all ties with that country and never go back.

Being in said country exposes oneself to enforcement, having assets onshore to confiscation, and unless you have committed a fairly serious crime or its a significant valued asset, I would argue based on my research thus far most creditors would not be willing to chase a person around the globe.

I will note that to those considering this that many precautions be taken, and you will have to hit the ground to do due diligence. Good luck.

If I may offer an alternative analysis:

Firstly the way to move and store value untracably is to buy removable chattels. This is why rich people tend to own a lot of Persian carpets, and explains the fascination with often shitty art work. It is not just that they have exceptionally poor aesthetic taste (although in some cases that is doubtless true), it is that there is no public register for paintings, rugs, sculpture etc. These things can easily disappear when the tax man or an ex spouse come knocking, yet they often allow you to store millions of pounds, in your house, under your control, and allow you to move them somewhere friendlier at any time. If these assets are bought by a trust, under which the wife is not a beneficiary the chances of this value being destroyed, or ending up in the hands of creditors is minimal, assuming you have set it up sensibly.

As to the issue of whether creditors will chase, that is sort of a moot point. The issue from the creditor's point of view is whether it is worth suing over. If the case is worth paying (hundreds of) thousands of pounds in lawyers fees, then they will bring the case to court. At that point, it is the court (or your lawyer with the court's authority) who is chasing, and you had better believe they will go to the ends of the earth. A recent famous divorce case, White v White shows how far the courts will go to achieve equality. This was a discretionary trust - a trust where the trustee has discretion as to how he disposes of the assets amongst a class of beneficiaries. To give an example, I might settle £1 million on trust, with Roosh as settlor, to be used to provide members of RVF with condoms as Roosh in his discretion may deem fit. As beneficiaries of this trust, the best we could hope for is that Roosh might think we were suitably accomplished shaggers to send us a box of johnnies now and again. We would not have any individual right to demand condoms, as it is up to Roosh's discretion how the money is apportioned. We could all club together and demand the money be evenly distributed. However, in White v White, the court decided that where the wife was part of a pool of beneficiaries, with no fixed interest, the court could demand that the trust dispensed and equal share of the trust value to her to ensure the 'yardstick of equality was met.

This shows just how serious the courts are about fucking you over IF you create a situation in the first place that allows them to do so. They will literally overrule 700 years of legal process to achieve 'equality'. But they have to know what to look for in the first place, and if they do, that means you screwed up.

The fundamental point, is that one should be proactive rather than reactive. All of these instances, and the case law surrounding them, is in the public domain. You know how these institutions are going to behave, you can plan in advance and think about how you will protect yourself should such an unfortunate time come.
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#32

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Buy a cash house in a different country with the status single.
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#33

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

H1: so at what are some rules of thumb for this? At what net worth does it become worthwhile to start thinking about it? How much does it cost to protect a little nest egg?

Theoretically, what options are available to an average wage slave with a 100 k salary, or to someone with 1m net worth? At what $ does the cost/benefit start to make sense - not just UHNW billionaire level.

I'm trying to understand what the law allows, and not looking to be afoul of any regulations.

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#34

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Quote: (11-22-2015 01:04 PM)polar Wrote:  

H1: so at what are some rules of thumb for this? At what net worth does it become worthwhile to start thinking about it? How much does it cost to protect a little nest egg?

Theoretically, what options are available to an average wage slave with a 100 k salary, or to someone with 1m net worth? At what $ does the cost/benefit start to make sense - not just UHNW billionaire level.

I'm trying to understand what the law allows, and not looking to be afoul of any regulations.

From what I gather, the number one rule of asset protection is STFU. That can be practiced at any income/net worth level. If you feel the need to brag, remember that you are not your wallet.

I need to get better at that.
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#35

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection


From what I gather, the number one rule of asset protection is STFU. That can be practiced at any income/net worth level.
[/quote]

Nope, the number one rule is do not marry, do not co-habitate with a woman. Live close and visit often.

Change every 12 months.

And STFU.

Its the only way to be sure [Image: wink.gif]
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#36

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Quote: (11-22-2015 01:04 PM)polar Wrote:  

H1: so at what are some rules of thumb for this? At what net worth does it become worthwhile to start thinking about it? How much does it cost to protect a little nest egg?

Theoretically, what options are available to an average wage slave with a 100 k salary, or to someone with 1m net worth? At what $ does the cost/benefit start to make sense - not just UHNW billionaire level.

I'm trying to understand what the law allows, and not looking to be afoul of any regulations.

Polar,

There are no clear cut answers with these things - it partly depends on how close you want to be to the money, how much control, how much you are willing to bend the rules, etc. I am not a financial advisor, and so can't really say when it is worth creating a trust, as opposed to investing in shares or whatever. As much as anything, this will depend on your own circumstances, liabilities, and character in determining how much risk you want to take.

As Peregrine rightly said, STFU is the number one rule of all this stuff. Your creditors/ex-wives need to know you have something to come after it in the first place. You can set up a foundation for a few hundred pounds if you can do all the leg work yourself. Even through a company you probably aren't looking at much more than a couple of thousand dollars to set it up - at what point it becomes worth spending a couple of thousand dollars is really a personal decision. If you're smart, you can then retain a substantial amount of control in practice, without creating too much of a paper trail.
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#37

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Quote: (11-22-2015 02:38 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Nope, the number one rule is do not marry, do not co-habitate with a woman. Live close and visit often.

Change every 12 months.

And STFU.

Its the only way to be sure [Image: wink.gif]

What is life without a little risk? Protecting your assets is like strapping on a helmet before starting the motorcycle. Risk of death is still there, but it's a lot lower than if you didn't put on the helmet.

Of course, all the more power to you if you have no interest in riding, but some of us do.
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#38

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

I looked at it. Def. not worth it for under 2-3MM in assets.

Realistically its not worth it if you have under 10MM.

Admin, paperwork and tax stuff takes a bunch of time and removes a lot of tax loopholes. Tax-inefficient and time-inefficient for smaller accounts.

In the USA, trusts also have different tax schedules (arguably higher), so if as a single person you make less than 250-300k/year its definetely not worth it.

The best way imo is to keep segregated accounts from your wife before you marry so you don't intermingle assets. There is almost nothing they can do at that point (until you get into the 10MM+ range when you get ambulance chasing lawyers).

So 99.9% of situations it makes no sense to asset protect beyond keeping regular insurance, homeowners insurance, and an umbrella for 1MM+ (which costs almost zilch).

WIA- For most of men, our time being masters of our own fate, kings in our own castles is short. Even those of us in the game will eventually succumb to ease of servitude rather than deal with the malaise of solitude
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#39

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

How well works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenuptial_agreement in the USA/UK?

In my country it appears to work quite well, except for the alimonies I guess..
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#40

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

Quote: (12-01-2015 04:18 PM)Lime Wrote:  

How well works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenuptial_agreement in the USA/UK?

In my country it appears to work quite well, except for the alimonies I guess..

Not formally recognised by the law in the UK. Judges may look at them to assess the parties' intentions, but a judge is under no obligation to do so.
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#41

A Serious Discussion About Asset Protection

I concur with what most have said, i.e. that it's extremely difficult to do because 1) courts will pierce the corporate/trust veil, 2) it's near-impossible to transfer any significant amount of money without leaving a paper trail. Also, 3) if you're a US citizen/resident most banks around the world want nothing to do with you and in any case will automatically report account details to the IRS.

An irrevocable trust may offer some protection, but you must give up all control. Trustees will charge fees which add up over the years. Even 1% per year adds up to 30% over the next 30 years! If you have a close, trusted relative (usually just your mother or father, others less closemay not be as trustworthy) as trustee that would be ideal. But your parents are older than you and won't be around forever. Buying a house for your parents may be a good solution (done long before you need the asset protection.) Protects you while they live and there may be nodeath tax when they die depending on where you and they live and where the real estate is located.

The existence of a trust (or owning real estate, a small business etc) may not be foolproof but makes the assets less attractive than a bank account (more legalfees for whoever's going after you.)

Not much you can do unfortunately. But not showing outward wealth does drive away gold diggers in the first place.
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