Which one is better and why?
Western Boxing vs Muay Thai
And so the Sherdog pissing contest begins...
Civilize the mind but make savage the body.
Dutch-style vs. Muay thai style would be more apt. (although still situated for two different sports). You need to add context to your question. As a sport? In a street fight? Also, the guys in the videos, are they of comparable caliber in their respective sports?
Civilize the mind but make savage the body.
Haven't Dutch kickboxing have a background in some kind of karate? That they could only punch to the body and kick to the head?
Muay thai fighters are more stationery as whole, more willing to trade. My friend said it best, that it's a battle of wills. Muay thai fighters posses almost all the same skills and makes the fights more into chess matches.
Boxers move alot more with more footwork and movement. More tactical than muay thai in my opinion. Then again I don't watch so much boxing.
Muay thai fighters are more stationery as whole, more willing to trade. My friend said it best, that it's a battle of wills. Muay thai fighters posses almost all the same skills and makes the fights more into chess matches.
Boxers move alot more with more footwork and movement. More tactical than muay thai in my opinion. Then again I don't watch so much boxing.
Quote: (11-06-2015 03:18 AM)KC4 Wrote:
Haven't Dutch kickboxing have a background in some kind of karate? That they could only punch to the body and kick to the head?
Muay thai fighters are more stationery as whole, more willing to trade. My friend said it best, that it's a battle of wills. Muay thai fighters posses almost all the same skills and makes the fights more into chess matches.
Boxers move alot more with more footwork and movement. More tactical than muay thai in my opinion. Then again I don't watch so much boxing.
You're probably thinking of Kyukushin Karate, I think certain kicks from Dutch style Muay Thai come from that style, though I'm not really an expert on these matters at all.
Good observation about Muay Thai being very stationary, my instructor often criticizes me when I spar him because he says I back up too much and that in Muay Thai you're always supposed to be coming forward. It is a very aggressive style which is part of the reason why I think it does well against other martial arts style, since it's always about coming forward and attacking, plus having the stamina and conditioning to keep going.
That said I think some of the movement is a bit stationary as you said, more straight forward, whereas other styles might emphasis more movement, different footwork, angles, etc.
One thing that was kind of telling was the second to last episode of the UFC ultimate fighter show (team USA vs Europe), the American named Julian, took on an Arab French dude named Mehdi who was supposed to be a Muay Thai champion that fought K-1. It was a good stand up battle, and could have gone either way, Mehdi landed the bigger shots, but Julian landed more overall.
In the end Julian won by split decision, but watching them fight it was really interesting how Julian incorporated so much movement and motion, constantly moving, throwing from odd angles, meanwhile Mehdi the Muay Thai guy just seemed really stationary, with slower forward movement, it was obvious that Julian's movement and footwork was frustrating him.
Now I'm not trying to say that Muay Thai is inferior or flawed as a style, but just that as MMA evolves I think more movement, footwork, angles, unorthodox strikes, etc. will become increasingly important and effective.
One thing that I think is bad ass about boxing is the head movement, slipping, bobbing and weaving, footwork, etc. that I don't think you get as much with pure Muay Thai.
There's a very good reason why you don't want to be doing too much exaggerated head movement in MT...it can get you knocked out by a knee or kick quite easily.
I'm currently at a "world renowned" camp in Thailand at the moment. Frankly I get more and more disappointed by the training here every time I come. I'm hung over as fuck right now but when I can think straight later I'm gonna start a thread about this.
I'm currently at a "world renowned" camp in Thailand at the moment. Frankly I get more and more disappointed by the training here every time I come. I'm hung over as fuck right now but when I can think straight later I'm gonna start a thread about this.
I always thought about doing Muay Thai but the only option I had at the time was boxing. So I'm going to give my opinion about boxing:
I've trained a lot of boxing and what I liked compared to other sports/Martial arts that I practiced (BJJ, TKD, Judo...) is that boxing is easy and fast to learn. Just a few punches and positions. The rest is training, training and more training.
During a confrontation, you don't have to think much, there's only FOUR punches, so it's easy to choose one. If you hit the the gym and sandbag often, I bet you're going to have a heavy punch.
Training twice/thrice a week, during 2 months (with a private trainer), I think anyone can learn everything about boxing. 1 year is enough to be good at it (not pro of course). Can't say the same for any other martial art. 1 year training BJJ and you won't even learn how do do an ankle-lock.
I've trained a lot of boxing and what I liked compared to other sports/Martial arts that I practiced (BJJ, TKD, Judo...) is that boxing is easy and fast to learn. Just a few punches and positions. The rest is training, training and more training.
During a confrontation, you don't have to think much, there's only FOUR punches, so it's easy to choose one. If you hit the the gym and sandbag often, I bet you're going to have a heavy punch.
Training twice/thrice a week, during 2 months (with a private trainer), I think anyone can learn everything about boxing. 1 year is enough to be good at it (not pro of course). Can't say the same for any other martial art. 1 year training BJJ and you won't even learn how do do an ankle-lock.
I kind of agree in that the basic punches are reasonably straightforward to learn with a decent trainer. But in reality boxing is a lot more complicated than just choosing which punch to use, and 3 times a week for a few months barely scratches the surface.
Depends what you're looking for.
Both are amazing workout. It's a complete workout (good for cardio, good for muscles).
Both will make you more confident. If you can go through the pressure/stress of a boxing or muy thai fight, not many things will scare you after.
Both will require a lot of discipline. Playing a football (soccer) or hockey game if you're not at your 100% is not the end of the world : you have other teamates you can rely on. But going to a fight if you're not 100% is a painful experience.
Both will be useful if you want to learn how to defend yourself. People say boxing isn't good when it comes to street fights, because it relies only one one thing (punching), but I disagree. Boxers become amazing at one thing (punching), while muy thai fighters focus on four things (punching, kicking, elbows, knees). Sometimes, mastering one thing is better than being a jack of all trades.
I think boxing is more fun to watch. If you're new to the sport, you will probably have more fun watching all-offensive fighters (Tyson, Gatti, Pacquiao, Golovkin), but the more you learn about the sports, the more you will enjoy watching defensive boxers too (ex : Mayweather, Pernell Whitaker).
Girls usually like it when they know you've been doing boxing. But avoid talking about it with random dudes at a bar, as they will probably want to "try you". I guess muy thai will also give you extra points with the chicks, but this sport isn't as well known.
My recommendation : watch some workout videos and some fights on Youtube for both sport. Then decide which one seems more interesting.
Both are amazing workout. It's a complete workout (good for cardio, good for muscles).
Both will make you more confident. If you can go through the pressure/stress of a boxing or muy thai fight, not many things will scare you after.
Both will require a lot of discipline. Playing a football (soccer) or hockey game if you're not at your 100% is not the end of the world : you have other teamates you can rely on. But going to a fight if you're not 100% is a painful experience.
Both will be useful if you want to learn how to defend yourself. People say boxing isn't good when it comes to street fights, because it relies only one one thing (punching), but I disagree. Boxers become amazing at one thing (punching), while muy thai fighters focus on four things (punching, kicking, elbows, knees). Sometimes, mastering one thing is better than being a jack of all trades.
I think boxing is more fun to watch. If you're new to the sport, you will probably have more fun watching all-offensive fighters (Tyson, Gatti, Pacquiao, Golovkin), but the more you learn about the sports, the more you will enjoy watching defensive boxers too (ex : Mayweather, Pernell Whitaker).
Girls usually like it when they know you've been doing boxing. But avoid talking about it with random dudes at a bar, as they will probably want to "try you". I guess muy thai will also give you extra points with the chicks, but this sport isn't as well known.
My recommendation : watch some workout videos and some fights on Youtube for both sport. Then decide which one seems more interesting.
The best one is the one you enjoy the most and train consistently 3-4x per week in for an extended period of time.
BUT, if I had to pick one it would be western boxing or Dutch style MT for reasons I've stated on here a dozen times on the dozen other same exact threads.
BUT, if I had to pick one it would be western boxing or Dutch style MT for reasons I've stated on here a dozen times on the dozen other same exact threads.
^what is the difference between dutch k1 and muay thai except the clinch and elbows? most gyms outside of Thailand won't teach you real muay thai anyway
Quote: (11-08-2015 05:48 PM)mntrsx Wrote:
^what is the difference between dutch k1 and muay thai except the clinch and elbows? most gyms outside of Thailand won't teach you real muay thai anyway
There's a big difference in styles. Dutch MT puts a much larger emphasis on hands, defense and chaining combinations together. Go to YouTube and you'll see all you need to know.
As CrashBangWallop has already stated on this forum, multiple times, the Thai style of teaching MT leaves a lot to be desired.
Quote: (11-08-2015 06:47 PM)RioNomad Wrote:
Quote: (11-08-2015 05:48 PM)mntrsx Wrote:
^what is the difference between dutch k1 and muay thai except the clinch and elbows? most gyms outside of Thailand won't teach you real muay thai anyway
There's a big difference in styles. Dutch MT puts a much larger emphasis on hands, defense and chaining combinations together. Go to YouTube and you'll see all you need to know.
As CrashBangWallop has already stated on this forum, multiple times, the Thai style of teaching MT leaves a lot to be desired.
One thing I noticed is that traditional thai boxers prefer to kick/knee instead of punching, but it's because of the points system.
The Thai-Muay Thai scoring system is nearly impossible to figure out as a non Thai. It distorts the whole thing, from style to approach. People expect it to be a 10-9 system and as a result, never quite understand what's going on.
I know of very few guys in the UK that can correctly score a Thai rules MT fight it's that hard.
I've been too tired from mindlessly kicking pads and bags and being told my technique is wrong all day to write my little essay but it is coming. I'm gonna delve into this specific topic of scoring.
I know of very few guys in the UK that can correctly score a Thai rules MT fight it's that hard.
I've been too tired from mindlessly kicking pads and bags and being told my technique is wrong all day to write my little essay but it is coming. I'm gonna delve into this specific topic of scoring.
I noticed in MMA a lot of the muay thai based fighters like to cover up as their primary defense as opposed to slipping and weaving away from punches like boxers do. These aren't "pure" muay thai guys though (which you almost never see in MMA) but rather Dutch and Brazilian/Chute Boxe style muay thai.
Quote: (11-08-2015 11:04 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:
I've been too tired from mindlessly kicking pads and bags and being told my technique is wrong all day to write my little essay but it is coming. I'm gonna delve into this specific topic of scoring.
There is a gym in Bangkok that has a good emphasis on punches or change your location to the Philippines, there are many high level boxing gyms.
I think punches and elbows are more practical and those who disagree - try to kick someone when you wear pants in a street fight.
Quote: (11-09-2015 05:30 AM)mntrsx Wrote:
Quote: (11-08-2015 11:04 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:
I've been too tired from mindlessly kicking pads and bags and being told my technique is wrong all day to write my little essay but it is coming. I'm gonna delve into this specific topic of scoring.
There is a gym in Bangkok that has a good emphasis on punches or change your location to the Philippines, there are many high level boxing gyms.
I think punches and elbows are more practical and those who disagree - try to kick someone when you wear pants in a street fight.
Thing is, my technique is perfect, to be honest, haha. These fuckers just don't know how to punch. I'm beginning to think they don't know how to kick, aside from round kicks, either (more topics for my mega rant).
They say "noooooo...like this" then when I say "why"? I just get a blank stare.
I come to Thailand mostly to get away from the UK in the Winter...the training just keeps me sane.
My first post :-)
I train muay thai on my own. K-1 is more of a rule-set than a combat sport. Given two fighters that are on the same level and one does muay thai and the other does "western" boxing, the muay thai person will almost always win in a "street fight". Because in boxing you rely on moves that will get you knocked out pretty fast with a knee or kicks. But as a good boxer with a little experience in blocking kicks, especially low kicks you probably still win against a only slightly worse muay thai guy. One problem as a boxer is that you aren't accustomed to low kicks. Only a few of them will bring most boxers down. In a street fight you won't see many high kicks due to cold muscles. In the end you should do what you like more as this will keep you going. In the end as a boxer you just fight with less weapons but having mastered a few is better than being a beginner with all. For cardio both is great. This is of course just my own opinion ;-).
I train muay thai on my own. K-1 is more of a rule-set than a combat sport. Given two fighters that are on the same level and one does muay thai and the other does "western" boxing, the muay thai person will almost always win in a "street fight". Because in boxing you rely on moves that will get you knocked out pretty fast with a knee or kicks. But as a good boxer with a little experience in blocking kicks, especially low kicks you probably still win against a only slightly worse muay thai guy. One problem as a boxer is that you aren't accustomed to low kicks. Only a few of them will bring most boxers down. In a street fight you won't see many high kicks due to cold muscles. In the end you should do what you like more as this will keep you going. In the end as a boxer you just fight with less weapons but having mastered a few is better than being a beginner with all. For cardio both is great. This is of course just my own opinion ;-).
Quote: (11-09-2015 01:51 PM)Linure Wrote:
My first post :-)
I train muay thai on my own. K-1 is more of a rule-set than a combat sport.
No. As soon as you have a set of rules, a sport changes its nature to accommodate them. It then becomes a different sport.
Also, what do you mean by you train on your own?
I agree that your surrounding and your clothing may have an effect on what kind of kick you're throwing in a street fight. If you're wearing tight fitting denim jeans and your pockets are stuffed with a wallet, cell phone, and keys, throwing a head kick may not be practical. It also may not be practical to throw a head kick in a bar full of people, whereas punches, knees, and elbows may be more in range.
I think that the Muay Thai roundhouse kick to the leg would be your most effective weapon especially against an untrained fighter or boxer. One thing about boxing is from what I understand boxers often sink a lot of weight on their front leg when throwing punches and the stance is really susceptible to the M.T. round house to the leg.
It sounds like traditional Muay Thai really shines when it comes to their clinch work, whereas the Dutch style is way better for it boxing element, and variety of kicks.
I think that the Muay Thai roundhouse kick to the leg would be your most effective weapon especially against an untrained fighter or boxer. One thing about boxing is from what I understand boxers often sink a lot of weight on their front leg when throwing punches and the stance is really susceptible to the M.T. round house to the leg.
It sounds like traditional Muay Thai really shines when it comes to their clinch work, whereas the Dutch style is way better for it boxing element, and variety of kicks.
Quote: (11-09-2015 10:18 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:
I agree that your surrounding and your clothing may have an effect on what kind of kick you're throwing in a street fight. If you're wearing tight fitting denim jeans and your pockets are stuffed with a wallet, cell phone, and keys, throwing a head kick may not be practical. It also may not be practical to throw a head kick in a bar full of people, whereas punches, knees, and elbows may be more in range.
I think that the Muay Thai roundhouse kick to the leg would be your most effective weapon especially against an untrained fighter or boxer. One thing about boxing is from what I understand boxers often sink a lot of weight on their front leg when throwing punches and the stance is really susceptible to the M.T. round house to the leg.
It sounds like traditional Muay Thai really shines when it comes to their clinch work, whereas the Dutch style is way better for it boxing element, and variety of kicks.
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but for boxers a simple low kick would be more effective than a roundhouse I figure. Considering you can throw out low kicks like nothing and render their thighs useless after few of them.
I can recall specifically when I sparred this Japanese national champ shoot boxer, he was a good 10 -15 cm shorter than I was but he connected 3 solid low kicks to my thigh. The first two I took figuring I can just push forward and retaliate as normal. The third kick to my thigh caused me to drop to a knee due to my leg giving out. Those fast snappy low kicks are nasty vs anyone who makes them easy to apply.
Leg kicks are a crazy idea for a street fight. The adrenaline is so great that Remy Bonjasky couldn't one-leg kick the average guy into submission.
It just doesn't work like that.
It just doesn't work like that.
Quote: (11-10-2015 12:24 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:
Leg kicks are a crazy idea for a street fight. The adrenaline is so great that Remy Bonjasky couldn't one-leg kick the average guy into submission.
It just doesn't work like that.
I agree about kicking the thigh. I've actually leg kicked a guy who charged at me once (behind the knee cap) and he crashed into the ground hard. Donald Cerrone has a bar fight story like this too, kicking out some guy's legs then proceeding to talk to the guy's girlfriend. If you use it as a sweep, it has a chance as most people will never see it coming. But in the Pat Barry sense, it probably won't work for your average guy.
Civilize the mind but make savage the body.
I once escorted a gatecrasher from a friend's 21st off the premises. Dude was high as a fucking kite on one thing or another.
Anyway, as we got near the gates he took a swing for my friend who was walking alongside and knocked him out.
I cannot tell you how badly I beat the shit out of this guy. I knocked him down with straight crosses at least 6 times and each time he just bounced up like he'd fallen on some ice, not been hit in the face by a 230lb kickboxing instructor. I didn't know what to do so just held him against a fence post and head butted him non stop till others arrived from the marquee to help restrain him. I was absolutely covered in blood and the guy looked like he's been attacked by a lion.
I reckon he would have bitten my nose off if i'd tried to leg kick him.
Yet he still tried to carry on fighting 10 guys.
Drugs can make a man superhuman. Sometimes you never know either until it's too late.
Anyway, as we got near the gates he took a swing for my friend who was walking alongside and knocked him out.
I cannot tell you how badly I beat the shit out of this guy. I knocked him down with straight crosses at least 6 times and each time he just bounced up like he'd fallen on some ice, not been hit in the face by a 230lb kickboxing instructor. I didn't know what to do so just held him against a fence post and head butted him non stop till others arrived from the marquee to help restrain him. I was absolutely covered in blood and the guy looked like he's been attacked by a lion.
I reckon he would have bitten my nose off if i'd tried to leg kick him.
Yet he still tried to carry on fighting 10 guys.
Drugs can make a man superhuman. Sometimes you never know either until it's too late.
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