[H1N1]

(07-10-2015 03:35 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 02:53 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Guns wouldn't have been necessary to stop this guy. All that it would've taken was this:



A small canister of pepper spray you could carry on a key chain. Blast it in his eyes and he'd have been blinded long enough for everyone in the train to jump on him. I actually bought one of these for a 2 month trip to South America. I never had to use it but if I was walking through the streets of Rio late at night, I always had it in my hand with the safety button unlocked. If some favela kids ran up on me with a knife, I'd have left his face dripping with the shit and got the hell out of there. I tested it before I left and it shoots like 20 feet. Amazing for such a small can. If more people carried these, something like this stabbing wouldn't have happened.

Was that legal to do and how'd you get it past security?

You can make a very reasonable approximation with meths and cayenne pepper - I'm sure you can buy far stronger variants, however, this simple mix is still pretty potent. You can then put it into any spraying receptacle you like.

[Repo]

Having witnessed multiple people in my life being pepper sprayed by cops, I'd be very skeptical that would work. Sure, you may impair his vision but hes still swinging a knife around wildly. Highly likely you will still get stabbed. Personnally I wouldn't interfere without a gun, unless he really does start stabbing people randomly rather than one guy who wouldn't give up his phone.

[Shrodax]

(07-10-2015 01:46 PM)Renzy Wrote:  

EDIT: Looks like Shrodax already brought up Goetz..

Haha, thanks for the shout-out, but Goetz was already mentioned earlier in this thread on page 2 by Dusty. At least with Goetz, he shot his muggers to defend himself. I probably would've done the same thing in his position, and I definitely would've shot Jasper Spires if he posed an immediate threat to me no matter what the laws were on carrying. I'd rather serve a prison sentence for defending myself than be killed by some thug, but I'm not risking a prison sentence to defend a random stranger.

Though I might make an exception for other RVF members. If you ever need backup, just yell out the code word "Pet Shop" in case I or any other RVF members are nearby that can help, so we know you're not just any random stranger.

(07-10-2015 02:27 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 12:37 PM)Shrodax Wrote:  

(07-09-2015 04:43 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

As for how I would handle it, let's just say that while certain lethal weapons are banned in those cities that equally lethal substitutes can be constructed in a manner of seconds from items that are perfectly innocuous to carry. I typically do carry those items on me when I'm in areas that ban guns like government buildings, airports, and bars.

Would you mind providing some examples or links to such improvised weapons? I'm quite curious about how to still be armed when I have to pass through security checkpoints.

Not Easy_C, obviously, but it is not necessarily prudent to post instructions on how to kill effectively on an open forum, particularly given the added attention this place may be getting after the media exposure of Roosh's world tour. My original post in this thread listed the various points on the human body where it would be 'straightforward' to kill or incapacitate using a ball point pen or a small blunt object. I edited it because that kind of information could probably bring unwarrented heat. Suffice to say that if you know what you are doing, AND HAVE A DEGREE OF SURPRISE, a ball point can make the difference.

An example of the sort of thing that could be extremely effective in the right hands is something like https://www.dragonsupplies.co.uk/catalog...Amev8P8HAQ

There may well be better ones, but you get the point. Even a solid, steel bodied, ball point would do the trick in the right areas.

Thanks for the tip on tactical pens. Not necessarily what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure what kind of weapons Easy_C was referencing. It wasn't clear if he meant hand-to-hand combat weapons, like that pen, or if he meant being able to MacGyver some kind of projectile weapon.

I've never quite understood the uneasiness about openly talking about improvising self-defense weapons. We can openly talk about shooting guns and learning martial arts, both of which can kill effectively, so why should some aspects of self-defense knowledge be off-limits? After all, this is a forum about masculine self-improvement, and I consider it an important masculine trait to have the knowledge and skills to defend yourself from all the various ne'er-do-wells, whether they're tumblr feminists or knife-wielding thugs on the train.

(07-10-2015 03:02 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

For the guys talking about using a gun (for the sake of this conversation ignore that it is illegal to carry in DC, would you have just walked up and shot at point blank? Only way to ensure you don't hit someone else, right? Being serious, set aside all the right or wrong debate stuff, I am just curious how ideally it should have been handled.

Thanks.

There are far too many unknown variables about how exactly the stabbing went down for me to adequately play armchair gunslinger. What's the distance between myself and the thug? Is the thug just in a verbal altercation with the victim or is the victim actively being stabbed? What is the backstop behind the thug if I shoot him? Do I have an adequate line of sight to the thug or is the victim too much in the way? Am I reasonably sure I can accurately hit the thug while on a moving train? Is the stabbing causing a mass panic so the other people on the train are behaving erratically, or are they calmly remaining seated? Is my handgun loaded with full-metal-jacket ammunition that will likely exit the thug and could hit people behind him, or do I have hollow points that will likely expand and stay inside the thug? (Protip: Your self-defense ammunition should almost always be hollow points, but beware of localities where HPs are illegal, such as New Jersey.)

I'm sure there are far more variables that even I haven't thought about. Therein lies a major source of legal trouble if I don't consider all of them. Am I liable if I miss and hit a bystander? What if I hit the victim because the thug threw him in the way at the last second? I'm willing to risk the consequences if my own life is at stake, but I'm not willing to risk the legal issues defending a stranger.

I'd also have to assess the situation and see if it looks like the thug has sidekicks on the train before I engaged. Does anybody remember the story of Joseph Wilcox from last year? He was a lawful concealed carrier who confronted a gunman in a Las Vegas Wal-Mart, thinking the gunman was acting alone, only to be shot by the gunman's wife and accomplice. That sad story is a reminder of why you can never assume anything in a life-or-death scenario, and why it's better to escape the situation if you can.

If the variables lined up neatly, my general strategy would be to draw my handgun, sight in the thug, place my finger on the trigger, check my flanks for any sign of the thug's friends, and immediately command him to drop the knife and get on the ground. As much as I would like to do the world a favor and permanently remove a piece of human garbage from the population, I don't want to deal with all the legal paperwork. If he doesn't immediately comply or makes a motion to turn his attack toward me, then I'm putting holes in him. Obviously this strategy would have to be modified contingent on any of the variables I mentioned.

Preferably, I'd remain 21 feet away from the thug (Tueller Drill) at all times. There's no way I would have walked up and shot him at point blank. The advantage of carrying a gun is so I can stay out of arm's reach (i.e. slashing/stabbing distance) of the thug. If I wait to shoot until I'm that close, it's a tossup because there's no guarantee a bullet could bring down the thug before he gets a chance to stab me, assuming I even can shoot before being stabbed. Unlike the movies where being shot is an instant-kill, in real-life many people can still keep going after being shot unless the bullet happens to hit a vital organ.

Of course, how the situation would ideally be handled is that our society wouldn't be so afraid of average civilians carrying weapons, more people would carry firearms, and criminals would think much more about attacking people because 10 people would've been willing to draw down on this knife-wielder on the metro. But I'll keep dreaming about that utopia.

(07-10-2015 02:46 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

That said, I'm not sure how I would've responded either. I'm a big aggressive guy, but when you're unarmed and facing a psycho with a knife what can you really do by yourself? After reading this story I spent a solid 20 minutes researching NYC's knife carrying laws, and came to the conclusion that anything beyond a pen knife is too legally risky to carry anyway.

That's why I'm a big believer in every person needing to decide for himself whether they're going to let the law dictate what they're allowed to do to protect themselves. Sometimes there's a difference between what's legal and what's right. If you're unarmed and being stabbed to death on a train, are your last thoughts going to be, "I'm so glad I respected the laws and decided not to carry a weapon"? Everybody has to weigh the risks and consequences for themselves on whether they'd rather be caught armed by a cop or caught unarmed by a criminal. How often do you get searched by the police vs how often do you encounter sketchy people?

Disclaimer: The above is solely my opinion. As this is a public forum that anyone can read (including the police and FBI), I, of course, would never intentionally violate local laws, nor would I encourage anyone else to intentionally violate local laws.

[samsamsam]

(07-10-2015 04:06 PM)Repo Wrote:  

unless he really does start stabbing people randomly rather than one guy who wouldn't give up his phone.

I mean that is the thing right? He didn't want to give up the phone. All of this over a phone, didn't he regularly back up his numbers? His selfies and food pics?

I wonder what he was thinking as he was being stabbed, "I'm one of you", "I know what it feels like to be black", "I'm sorry for white privilege"

If the punk hated outside life so much that he wanted to go back to prison, why didn't he just kill himself? In "The Shawshank Redemption" Brooks mans up and does the deed.


Shrodax, thanks for the thoughts. All good detail. The point blank thought on my part is if he was so busy stabbing the fuck out of this guy he might not notice someone walk up and put one in his ear. I remember something about how important distance is and how long it takes to react, there was some thread about a kid with a knife on a bus in Toronto. A whole discussion about why wasn't there a warning shot, etc. He got shot dead.

[Repo]

@samsam

Thats what one of the commenters said anyway. . .don't think it was a random stabbing.

[Kabal]

(07-10-2015 05:51 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

I wonder what he was thinking as he was being stabbed, "I'm one of you", "I know what it feels like to be black", "I'm sorry for white privilege"

1286 "Et tu, Jaspe?! Then fall, Kevin."

1287 Dies

[Seamus]

(07-10-2015 05:47 PM)Shrodax Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 02:46 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

That said, I'm not sure how I would've responded either. I'm a big aggressive guy, but when you're unarmed and facing a psycho with a knife what can you really do by yourself? After reading this story I spent a solid 20 minutes researching NYC's knife carrying laws, and came to the conclusion that anything beyond a pen knife is too legally risky to carry anyway.

That's why I'm a big believer in every person needing to decide for himself whether they're going to let the law dictate what they're allowed to do to protect themselves. Sometimes there's a difference between what's legal and what's right. If you're unarmed and being stabbed to death on a train, are your last thoughts going to be, "I'm so glad I respected the laws and decided not to carry a weapon"? Everybody has to weigh the risks and consequences for themselves on whether they'd rather be caught armed by a cop or caught unarmed by a criminal. How often do you get searched by the police vs how often do you encounter sketchy people?

Disclaimer: The above is solely my opinion. As this is a public forum that anyone can read (including the police and FBI), I, of course, would never intentionally violate local laws, nor would I encourage anyone else to intentionally violate local laws.

I get your point, but in NYC at least the legal liability is no joke.

Check this article out: How a 50's Era New York Knife Law Has Landed Thousands in Jail

[Easy_C]

Yes, what he said. I'm not going to be specific on here but the type of items I'm referring to are extremely simple and can be found on gang documentaries.

[Fast Eddie]

(07-10-2015 06:07 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

I get your point, but in NYC at least the legal liability is no joke.

Check this article out: How a 50's Era New York Knife Law Has Landed Thousands in Jail

That is fucking outrageous. I'd say it's even worse than the asset seizure, because they're stealing not money but years of your life. What a farce this place has become. I seriously feel more "free" in communist China. As long as you don't actively agitate against the government, they leave you fucking be. Here, you best toe a very, very fine line, in multiple dimensions.

[Shrodax]

(07-10-2015 06:07 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

I get your point, but in NYC at least the legal liability is no joke.

Check this article out: How a 50's Era New York Knife Law Has Landed Thousands in Jail

Damn, that's even more fucked up that NYC's laws on carrying handguns. With that kind of legal liability, you might as well just deep conceal a handgun for personal protection if you decide to ignore the laws. Or carry a fixed-blade knife under 4 inches if you want to stay legal.

The article notes that most people are caught because the police could see the clip of their knife. Another reason that self-defense items carried on your person should stay concealed until you need them. Not only do you get the element of surprise, but it's an extra layer of protection in case you accidentally violate the law.

The beginning of that article also highlights why you should NEVER. TALK. TO. THE. POLICE:

Quote:

So Neal wasn't worried when he saw police prowling the grounds of the Lower East Side project that night in 2008. For once, Neal wasn't doing anything wrong. Even when two police officers approached and began asking questions, Neal was feeling just fine.... And when one of the officers, glancing down at Neal's baggy jeans, asked what he had in his pocket, Neal was honest.

Very likely that Richard Neal could have just been on his way that night if only he remembered the chant of the YouTube Libertarians: "Am I free to go?"

Also, I am white and don't routinely hang around the projects at 4 AM, so that does play into my risk analysis in these situations. Others will need to consider their own personal situations.

[speakeasy]

(07-10-2015 03:35 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 02:53 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Guns wouldn't have been necessary to stop this guy. All that it would've taken was this:



A small canister of pepper spray you could carry on a key chain. Blast it in his eyes and he'd have been blinded long enough for everyone in the train to jump on him. I actually bought one of these for a 2 month trip to South America. I never had to use it but if I was walking through the streets of Rio late at night, I always had it in my hand with the safety button unlocked. If some favela kids ran up on me with a knife, I'd have left his face dripping with the shit and got the hell out of there. I tested it before I left and it shoots like 20 feet. Amazing for such a small can. If more people carried these, something like this stabbing wouldn't have happened.

Was that legal to do and how'd you get it past security?

Not sure if it was legal. I just put it in my checked baggage.

[Emancipator]

Dale from KoTH shows how to use your jacket to disarm a knife

[el mechanico]

(07-10-2015 10:53 PM)Emancipator Wrote:  

Dale from KoTH shows how to use your jacket to disarm a knife

I have custom suit jackets the disarm knife wielding attackers without me even wearing them.

Sorry.

[Gorgiass]

I wonder what Alvin York would've done in this situation



Probably cower in a corner behind the nearest small child, cause y'know, he might get cut if he tried any funny business. Handing over your phone is the new alpha.

[Beyond Borders]

I would have just thrown my keyboard at him.

[CTking]

Holy shit i saw this thread and didnt think much of it until i realized i had heard about a guy from my highschool who had gotten stabbed, i finally put two and two together and damn this guy was in my class. I never knew the guy but wow sometimes the news hits closer to home then you think.

[Easy_C]

(07-10-2015 07:03 PM)Shrodax Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 06:07 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

I get your point, but in NYC at least the legal liability is no joke.

Check this article out: How a 50's Era New York Knife Law Has Landed Thousands in Jail

Damn, that's even more fucked up that NYC's laws on carrying handguns. With that kind of legal liability, you might as well just deep conceal a handgun for personal protection if you decide to ignore the laws. Or carry a fixed-blade knife under 4 inches if you want to stay legal.

And wear an expensive suit. In NYC in particular, the richer you look the less likely you are to be hassled by NYPD.

[CRR]

The notion that this guy may have had it coming reminds me of the guy who is crowd funding for medical expenses but opposes the ACA. I've seen more than a few left-leaning people post similar articles on Facebook. Point being, some things go beyond politics. By all accounts he seems like a decent kid who was brutally murdered.

Regarding restrictive gun laws, I'd say it's a good thing the murderer was unable to get a gun. And I say this as a supporter of concealed carry for anyone who passes a background check, and should (while not mandatory) take some sort of training course. I agree that a gun ban is absurd, but keeping guns out of the hands of people like this guy, or Dylan Roof, should be a priority. I just don't know what the solution is. But that it's difficult to even discuss it without being denounced as a communist in league with the UN is ridiculous as well.

While I value being cool, calm and collected as a primary characteristic of being a man, it's hard to say how I'd react in such a situation. I'm familiar with firearms and can handle one effectively and am a decent shot. But never having been in such a situation, again, not sure how I'd react.

(07-11-2015 12:16 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 07:03 PM)Shrodax Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 06:07 PM)Seamus Wrote:  

I get your point, but in NYC at least the legal liability is no joke.

Check this article out: How a 50's Era New York Knife Law Has Landed Thousands in Jail

Damn, that's even more fucked up that NYC's laws on carrying handguns. With that kind of legal liability, you might as well just deep conceal a handgun for personal protection if you decide to ignore the laws. Or carry a fixed-blade knife under 4 inches if you want to stay legal.

And wear an expensive suit. In NYC in particular, the richer you look the less likely you are to be hassled by NYPD.

True. I wear a suit often, and I'm white, so the police basically ignore me.

[TheWastelander]

(07-11-2015 12:33 PM)CRR Wrote:  

I'd say it's a good thing the murderer was unable to get a gun.

How do you know that?

[The Wire]

(07-09-2015 04:37 PM)Tigre Wrote:  

cbsnews.com Wrote:

Court documents say one witness saw Spires attempt to take something from Sutherland's waist area and that they struggled over the item before Sutherland was punched and stabbed in his chest, back, sides and arms. The witness says Spires threw Sutherland's cellphone at him as he lay bleeding on the train car's floor.

I don't see the point of risking my life for a guy who wants to defend his cellphone at all costs. If that is in fact what happened.

How does the article indicate that the guy made a decision between his life and a cell phone? Sounds like the guy just reacted. It didn't state the black guy had his knife out and said "give me the cell phone"

[The Wire]

(07-09-2015 04:45 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Quote:

That no one did displays not just cowardice but also a callous and unthinking selfishness. The Reddit eyewitness had no idea at the time how many more people Spires would kill, no idea if he would attack the 52-year-old woman or an elderly passenger. He just let him walk off the train into the subway, covered in Sutherland’s blood.

This is essentially the opposite of the spirit of United Flight 93—the heroic selflessness that prompted a group of courageous passengers on 9/11 to attack their hijackers, forcing them to crash the plane in a Pennsylvania field. Once they heard about the attacks in New York and the Pentagon, and knew many more would die if they failed to act, they knew what they had to do—no matter what happened to them.

Morally, the choice facing the passengers on that subway car on July 4 was no different than the one facing the United 93 passengers on 9/11. It doesn’t matter if it’s one life or one thousand, the principle is what counts.

I don't agree with this logic. It's easy to sit back and play armchair hero. When something like this actually happens and you have to step in and disarm a man with a deadly weapon, it's another story. Especially if you have a wife and kids to look after. In Krav Maga we studied knife and gun disarms and I'll tell you straight up it's way harder to disarm a man with a knife than one with a gun. And you WILL get stabbed, no matter how good you are. Especially if the guy with the knife knows how to use it.

I would say if I was at the other end of the subway car away from it I wouldn't have step in especially if it was too late and they weren't struggling because that means you are playing hero and are going to get fucked up trying to stop the guy.

Other hand If I was close and observed the guy initially go for his waist and they were in a struggle I could see myself stepping in quick but again I wouldn't play Monday morning quarterback without being there.

[EuroSlumming]

Pretty tough to take this guy down with a gun. He was in the middle of the train and the passengers were cowering at either end of the carriage. You'd have to get a clear line of sight past the other terrified passengers, who incidentally have no idea who you are and may decide you're a threat when you pull your gun.

You'd be taking your shot on a moving train, something you don't practice at the range, and have to hit the guy accurately enough to take him down. If you miss there is a very high chance that you'll hit one of the passengers at the other end of the train. And let's say there's a few other Dirty Harry's on the train, with the bullets flying back and forth it will be like a shootout at the Ok Corral.

The only way a gun is helping is if you hold it in check then use it if he comes towards you with the knife, that way you have the element of surprise and he'd be close enough for accuracy.

[germany]

The guy who talked about society role, he must also take into consideration
how overpopulated the Earth is right now.

The Earth is made to hold maximum half a billion people, but it currently going towards its 8 billion member at high speed.

And this is only because the explosion of rights of females: they are protected
every step of the way, their reposnsibilities are always lifted,
a ton of blind and brainwashed white knights are sacrificing their lives for females,
the females live on average 10 years longer than males, etc etc etc

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

^^ This must be the first time I've ever seen feminism being blamed for overpopulation.

[birdie num num]

(07-10-2015 02:53 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Guns wouldn't have been necessary to stop this guy. All that it would've taken was this:



A small canister of pepper spray you could carry on a key chain. Blast it in his eyes and he'd have been blinded long enough for everyone in the train to jump on him. I actually bought one of these for a 2 month trip to South America. I never had to use it but if I was walking through the streets of Rio late at night, I always had it in my hand with the safety button unlocked. If some favela kids ran up on me with a knife, I'd have left his face dripping with the shit and got the hell out of there. I tested it before I left and it shoots like 20 feet. Amazing for such a small can. If more people carried these, something like this stabbing wouldn't have happened.

I've been carrying pepper spray for a few years and I always have it ready during bike rides. It will stop a dog in its tracks, no problem. Humans might be another matter. There can be a few seconds delay before the spray takes full effect. Perhaps I'm crazy, but I tested it out on myself. I figured that if you are going to carry it then you should know the effect. It took a few seconds before my eyes were forced shut. A thug may have time to slash away before being incapacitated. Also, he could be high on drugs and oblivious to pain. Check out YouTube for pepper spray videos. Cops are trained to be able to take down and handcuff a suspect after being sprayed. As devastating as it is, pepper spray does have possible drawbacks.

There are other things to keep in mind. There's a good chance that you will get some of the spray in your face. What if it is windy and you are spraying into the wind? Pepper spray comes in different spray patterns: fog, foam, direct spray. I carry direct stream as there's less chance for innocent bystanders to get hit. I had a near incident a few years ago with some hoodrats on a subway. Had I been carrying and used a fog spray then innocent bystanders could have been hit. They'd be of little help taking down the perps if they can't breath or open their eyes. Who knows what problems or lawsuits that could of led to if some grandma or infant with respiratory problems inhaled the spray.

That said, pepper spray still better than nothing, and in certain situations it will allow one to make an escape. One has to size up the situation before using it.