[Nascimento]

(03-15-2015 07:50 AM)slubu Wrote:  

Very interesting thread - quick side question...how are you guys measuring your body fat %'s?

Individual variations, of course, but this serves as a good guide:

[Repo]

Ugh I took one of those electronic handheld bodyfat percentage calculators once, it had me at 9%. But based off that pic I was really closer to between 15-20% (at that time). Now I know how inaccurate those machines are.

[Spike]

(03-15-2015 09:50 AM)Repo Wrote:  

Ugh I took one of those electronic handheld bodyfat percentage calculators once, it had me at 9%. But based off that pic I was really closer to between 15-20% (at that time). Now I know how inaccurate those machines are.

Same here. In my gym this device says 10.5 but I look more like 15% comparing to those pics.

[Spike]

(03-14-2015 08:05 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

To illustrate, an example. Person A and Person B train the exact same, with very similar nutrition, and let's suppose genetic factors are disregarded, and also previous training history.

Person A starts at 10% body fat, Person B starts at 16%. For 8 months, both train hard and add weight, a total of 20 pounds each.

Person A might add 10-12 pounds of muscle, Person B might add 4-7. The rest of course is fat.

I think you're too optimistic here. 10 to 12 pounds of pure muscle in just 8 months is barely doable. i think most gym-goers will be very very satisfied with 10 pounds in a year.

[Nascimento]

Yes I think for someone past beginner gains it may be too optimistic. Just an example, the idea is that if you start leaner you will put on more muscle than if you add the same amount of weight, where you start less lean.

[RIslander]

(03-14-2015 03:44 PM)civpro Wrote:  

This is an age old question, one that I've struggled with for the last 2 years that I've been lifting, having the atrocious skinny-fat hormonal profile & metabolism that I do. I still haven't come down on the side of one answer over the other. Gains have come at a snail's pace for me, with a lot of 2 steps forward, 1 step back action going on.

I'm gonna throw out an extreme hypothetical, to gauge what everybody thinks.

- A man is 22% bodyfat and can only bench 1 plate for 1 rep.
- His body is completely unable to build strength/muscle on any deficit or on maintenance. Only on a surplus can he make gains.

What should he do? Bulk or cut?

Join a boot camp style workout group that focuses on sprinting and body weight workouts. Tone up and gain strength, as well as boost confidence by seeing objective improvements. Then move on to weight lifting and a more advanced strength program.

[Repo]

Nascimento Wrote:
To illustrate, an example. Person A and Person B train the exact same, with very similar nutrition, and let's suppose genetic factors are disregarded, and also previous training history.

Person A starts at 10% body fat, Person B starts at 16%. For 8 months, both train hard and add weight, a total of 20 pounds each.

Person A might add 10-12 pounds of muscle, Person B might add 4-7. The rest of course is fat

Seriously though, is there any studies done to verify this statement or is this just broscience? Because it sounds like broscience.. . .

My own experiences completely contradict your hypothesis.

[Nascimento]

^ I've already explained this twice.

[Repo]

I saw your reasoning as to why you think you are right, which don't get me wrong, seems to make sense. . . .but no actual studies verifying you are right with control groups and such.

[Nascimento]

No I don't have studies, though I would like to have some as I enjoy reading in to the science, when results are actually significant. There could be some out there, but I haven't done the searching.

A couple links on the first page have been posted though supporting this idea from first-hand experience.

As I've mentioned, experienced guys have mentioned above the noise that you should always be 'bulking' that you should be lean first before adding weight. The lower you are body fat wise, the better.

I learned I now have to give that a try, because my results were not as good as they should have been, even being realistic.

I've also stated I'm far from an expert.. this thread is to share insight and for us to get some additional perspectives on the matter. I'm hoping to update my experiences here in the future when I finally lean out to an ideal standard and add weight then.

Also important to remember are that our bodies are all different. What works for some might not be the exact same as for others.

[Fortis]

Eh, yes and no. I don't think it's the biggest deal. I hear about it a lot but I think lifting and being active is ultimately more important than obsessing over bodyfat percentages and such. If you're obese or fat deal with it. Otherwise just fucking lift.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[Doc Rock]

...

[Kamikaze]

Everyone works out differently and this view is controversial, so I appreciate this thread especially when it reflects my own experience.

I'm not a personal trainer but whenever a fat or skinny-fat person asks me how to get in shape, I just tell them to get on a treadmill first. That is what I did in high school as a cross-country runner, and believe me I don't look like runner today. I am not advocating running 15 miles a day. I am advocating running 30 minutes a day at about 65-70% speed, brisk pace. Or less time, 15-20 minutes, if it's a serious pace, say 5K pace, but that usually leads to burnout more quickly.

Sprinting and interval workouts are indeed more effective at eliminating fat and I'm a fan, but normally require more knowledge, space, and motivation to get through them correctly, without injury. They wear you out more, too, which is good and bad. Making gains or losing fat is about consistency, and sticking to a very easy, 30 minute per day treadmill routine with your favorite playlist and specially designed running headphones, and a small mp3 player on an armband is the simplest, if not most effective, way to get to a decent body fat level. I should note here, I really enjoy running on a treadmill, as crazy as it sounds. I often get goosebumps listening to different songs on my running playlist throughout the 30 minutes. It's a really weird kind of high that, honestly, I can't replicate any other way. I like the feeling of a good pump or the feeling of playing basketball or soccer or whatever, but running to good music is a unique feeling. Throughout the fat-burning stage, weights can be lifted leisurely to avoid crackhead physique.

Working out is about encouraging behavioral changes, so I'm reticent to advise a fat fuck to get off the couch and go do some HIIT and lift for strength at 4-6 reps right off the bat.

From a lower body fat level, gains from lifting weights also become more noticeable and motivating, encouraging consistency. It's not a terrible thing to look like a gaunt, skinny hipster, as long as you bulk up a bit afterward. I can't deadlift a Prius, but every girl I've been with remarks at my physique, so I think it worked out for me.

[SupaDorkLooza]

(03-15-2015 07:50 AM)slubu Wrote:  

Very interesting thread - quick side question...how are you guys measuring your body fat %'s?

The plastic Accu Measure calipers, the bf % readings I've taken and what I've see in the mirror have been pretty close to the pictures in the collage above. edit: what Moma said.

[SupaDorkLooza]

(03-14-2015 03:44 PM)civpro Wrote:  

This is an age old question, one that I've struggled with for the last 2 years that I've been lifting, having the atrocious skinny-fat hormonal profile & metabolism that I do. I still haven't come down on the side of one answer over the other. Gains have come at a snail's pace for me, with a lot of 2 steps forward, 1 step back action going on.

I'm gonna throw out an extreme hypothetical, to gauge what everybody thinks.

- A man is 22% bodyfat and can only bench 1 plate for 1 rep.
- His body is completely unable to build strength/muscle on any deficit or on maintenance. Only on a surplus can he make gains.

What should he do? Bulk or cut?

It would be a good idea to get tested, go to a progressive thinking doctor who will prescribe the drugs you need to alter your levels.

There is a lot of info about this on danger and play and good looking loser if you search for TRT and T3.

[Aliblahba]

(03-15-2015 07:50 AM)slubu Wrote:  

Very interesting thread - quick side question...how are you guys measuring your body fat %'s?

Go to Complete Nutrition and use their scale. It gives you a complete readout of your body composition ie all the mass #'s. I went yesterday and think it was pretty accurate. It said I was a fat fuck. Fisto said the same thing when I sent him the readout.

[H1N1]

(03-15-2015 09:08 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

(03-15-2015 07:50 AM)slubu Wrote:  

Very interesting thread - quick side question...how are you guys measuring your body fat %'s?

Individual variations, of course, but this serves as a good guide:

I have serious beef with this photo. I can go from 6% all the way to 20% in a few seconds flat based on the lighting conditions alone.

[The Reactionary Tree]

First off, every guy should being lifting weights regardless of their weight. period. There are only benefits to be had.

Secondly, if you have been lifting for a while and have built some muscle but it is underneath a layer of fat, you dont need to take drastic measures or make sacrifices (dem gainz) to get lean.

Getting lean will be easier after you have built some muscle since you have increased the metabolic needs of your body by having that additional muscle.

[Aliblahba]

My results. 3 months on the road has taken a toll. No fat shaming. I'm just big boned.




   

[theking]

The photo explaining what the varying levels of body fat may be roughly true, however, water weight plays a huge role in how lean one looks vs how lean one actually is. For example, the photo illustrating the bodybuilder with '3-4%' bodyfat is probably more like 5 or 6% but has abused diuretics to get so into such a dry condition. This is especially true when one is using hormones/steroids as certain ones can either make one retain or displace water. Off season bodybuilders can get into shape vary quickly just be dropping 'wet' compounds and increasing drying ones.

Further more, anyone measuring their bodyfat with the handheld monitor should know that they are wildly inaccurate. Use the skin-fold measurement way or get a underwater body scan to get an accurate body fat measurement.

[rhodey]

(03-14-2015 08:05 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  

Do any search on muscle gains and people will tell you that you should never cut weight unless you have something to trim down to.

Put on muscle first, even if you get a bit fat, so at least you can have a firm base when you finally lose your fat.

This is the idea, and the one I've followed for some time.

I've found this to be an inefficient way of improving your body composition over the long run.

I've been told by some guys very experienced in the field that I went to personally that you should only seek to add muscle if you have a very lean base to start from. Think 10-12% body fat, where you can see the outlines of all your abs.

I was stubborn. After having lost some weight at the time already and after summer was over, I just wanted to add weight. I wanted to eat at a surplus, I wanted more muscle. Despite being mid-high teens body fat, I thought I could still make the most of it if I trained hard and didn't let my nutrition go to shit.

I did do a few things right. I didn't do a traditional bulk - I added weight on quite slowly. For a period of 6 months, I added on an average of 2-3 pounds per month. At the end of this period I had added on 15 pounds.

Since I am past beginner gains, my results were less than I expected. I trained very hard in the gym, my best workouts ever were during these 6 months. I ate a lot of protein, did cardio, juiced, and despite this maybe only 5 pounds or so of the weight I gained was muscle.

It may sound reasonable, but not when I am not too muscular to begin with. In other words, I still believe I am far from reaching my natural potential, even though I've trained for more than a few years.

I feel I have this potential I have not yet reached, because I've never started from a very lean base.

***

The idea when you start lean, as opposed to moderately high on body fat % when adding muscle:

- Your testosterone is higher, and your estrogen is lower. The former promotes muscle growth, the latter fat storage. Having said that my hormones are pretty good, but they could be better.

- Insulin and nutrient partitioning.. at lower body fat percentages insulin is more likely to shuttle your surplus of nutrients in order to build muscle in relation to fat storage.. at higher percentages, less muscle, more nutrients stored as fat.

Also insulin sensitivity. At higher body fat %, your pancreas needs to release more insulin to achieve the same effect, due to decreased sensitivity. When insulin circulates it inhibits fat breakdown, and promotes its storage. More fat = increased propensity to store more fat.

***

The two factors above (and maybe something else I could be missing) combine to create a stronger muscle gain effect when you start very lean, as opposed to somewhat lean.

To illustrate, an example. Person A and Person B train the exact same, with very similar nutrition, and let's suppose genetic factors are disregarded, and also previous training history.

Person A starts at 10% body fat, Person B starts at 16%. For 8 months, both train hard and add weight, a total of 20 pounds each.

Person A might add 10-12 pounds of muscle, Person B might add 4-7. The rest of course is fat.

Of course all of this is to a certain extent. There is only so much you can add muscle wise without using drugs. But if you have only ever achieved beginner gains (that don't require much from you) there is probably much progress you could be making still that you haven't yet discovered..

Especially because you add 10 pounds, lose 10 pounds every 6 months or so (as I have done for god knows how long), without ever getting really lean to optimize your body for muscle gain and fat loss.

What have your experiences been like?

I'm actually glad I went through with this. Even though now I have some leaning out to do, I have learned more about my body through personal experience that tells more than anything on the internet ever will.

Now I have to follow up and see what it's like to add muscle when I'm very lean to start with.

I think you could be right, but I keep coming back to the 5 pounds of muscle in 6 months. If you are anything other than a beginner, that is really respectable. Seems like your expectations might be too high for a natural lifter.




You seem satisfied with that amount of progress but I'd like to know where your are at now (height ) weight and estimated body fat. For a natural lifter who is shedded

[Nascimento]

Currently 162 lbs at 5'8, somewhere around 19-21%.

I usually lean out till 15% or so before stabilizing my weight, this time I gotta go further and experiment at the lower end.

[Repo]

Ive been down to a legit 10% body fat before. I know every person is different, but even gaining a pound of muscle while at that low body fat percentage is hard as hell. Despite maintaning the same amount of protein while cutting weight, most of my lifts suffered. For someone whos been lifting for a while, unless if you are a genetic freak, I just can't imagine gaining 10 pounds of muscle in 8 months without steroids while staying at 10% body fat. I've been that low, and I just don't think its possible. Maybe if your only age 15-22 or something like that. Even then, hard as balls.

I think alot of people underestimate how intensive the difference between 15% body fat and a legit 10% body fat really is.

[RexImperator]

(03-16-2015 10:01 AM)Repo Wrote:  

Ive been down to a legit 10% body fat before. I know every person is different, but even gaining a pound of muscle while at that low body fat percentage is hard as hell. Despite maintaning the same amount of protein while cutting weight, most of my lifts suffered. For someone whos been lifting for a while, unless if you are a genetic freak, I just can't imagine gaining 10 pounds of muscle in 8 months without steroids while staying at 10% body fat. I've been that low, and I just don't think its possible. Maybe if your only age 15-22 or something like that. Even then, hard as balls.

I think alot of people underestimate how intensive the difference between 15% body fat and a legit 10% body fat really is.

I think the idea is you won't stay at that bodyfat level but you want to get lean before going into a caloric surplus. At 10% you could do a long slow bulk up to 17% or so and then cut down again.

[Repo]

Well when you lose the 10% body fat, you would then also lose the testosterone and insulin related advantages OP is talking about, so then I guess what is the point (strictly from a muscle gaining perspective)?