[Mage]

When I was much younger I trained at taekwondo and was able to nearly do splits. I lacked only a few mm to achieve a full split. After realizing it is a pretty useless sport and brings little value in practical self defense I have stopped training in it nearly a decade ago, however the challenge to perform a perfect split has always remained in the back of my head and I have realized that I must finally accomplish this to not feel like a quitter and my desire to master it has never been bigger.

Just to clarify this is what I mean by split (and not a training program):
   

The problem is in the meantime I have started heavy squatting as advised by many members of this forum influenced from sources like Strong lifts and Starting Strength and I really enjoy both the process and the benefits. After a year and half of squatting I currently squat 1.3 my body weight for reps and my long term goal is to reach 2x body weight. However I am somewhat worried if too great a flexibility in hips would cause safety issues or maybe my worries are unjustified and it would only help.

The funny thing is that this question cannot be googled. If I put words like "squatting" or "lifting" together sit the world "split" the google always thinks that "split" refers to a training program rather than making 180 angle with your legs.

So I have two goals and I must ask someone if these goals are go well together or are they excluding each other and I should choose? Does anyone have something to say on this?

[Rangarr]

When it comes to flexiblity, there's no such thing as "too much" if you're not exactly talking about being double jointed. Hell, for hips and legs everyone is perpetually tight in the muscles. You can stretch away to your heart's content, most of the weight during squats is on the knees and you're not exactly stretching your knees are you? Better flexiblity also allows you to squat deeper and avoid the butt wink

Just one thing though, never stretch right before a workout. Do some flexibility warm ups but no actual stretching, stretching is homework

[Oz.]

I can perform a split have been able to since I was a teen. I also squat normally without any problems and I'm currently doing 5x5

[Ryre]

OP--if you've been in TKD I am sure you know this, but what Van Damme is doing there is a side split, harder from and different than a front split, which is what most people would mean by doing splits.

(02-09-2015 05:49 AM)Rangarr Wrote:  

When it comes to flexiblity, there's no such thing as "too much" if you're not exactly talking about being double jointed. Hell, for hips and legs everyone is perpetually tight in the muscles. You can stretch away to your heart's content, most of the weight during squats is on the knees and you're not exactly stretching your knees are you? Better flexiblity also allows you to squat deeper and avoid the butt wink

Just one thing though, never stretch right before a workout. Do some flexibility warm ups but no actual stretching, stretching is homework

Not sure this is true. I can't find the quote, but I recall Pavel or somebody saying Americans make a cult of flexibility for its own sake, when in fact there isn't much reason to have more flexibility than required for your activities/sport. Even one of the old-time kickboxers, Don Wilson or someone like that, eased off the stretching when he found that being too loose was hurting his ability to rapidly retract or snap back his kicks.

Personally I used to stretch quite a bit (also former TKD), now I basically never do except for specific reasons (like a recent bit of Achilles tendonitis--I have always had short Achilles). I play basketball and squat to or below parallel, spent a couple of years doing BJJ, and the lack of static stretching doesn't seem to hurt me at all. I foam roll and do a good dynamic warmup, that's all I seem to need--and my age starts with a 4.

[Impulse]

I've been into gymnastics/parkour for a good while now. One of the hardest things I've ever attempted was the sideways split, still haven't perfected it actually. Currently I'm doing front splits; sliding into them with ease. You won't get a horizontal split for a while unless you dedicate some time to your legs.

What helps is posting your leg up on a high ledge or a bar in your gym, holding it for a good three minutes on each leg. Do some research on the stretches dancers use to increase flexibility. The ones that've mainly allowed my leg muscles to bend: bend your leg back into your thigh, arch your foot and bend your back towards the floor, stay on your ms until your thigh is able to handle the position and eventually lay flat.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

Holy shit. I did a GIS on the image and got this video. I had no idea, I missed out on this when it went viral.

[Saweeep]

(02-09-2015 07:58 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Holy shit. I did a GIS on the image and got this video. I had no idea, I missed out on this when it went viral.

Fuck me that's some good driving!

[StrikeBack]

Olympic lifters squat 3-4x bodyweights and they are flexible enough to do splits.

Case closed.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(02-10-2015 07:27 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

Olympic lifters squat 3-4x bodyweights and they are flexible enough to do splits.

Case closed.

They also have 1/1,000,000 genetics, the best training, the best nutrition, and the best drugs.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

The muscles from Brussels is pretty fucking bad ass.

[The Reactionary Tree]

(02-09-2015 05:49 AM)Rangarr Wrote:  

Just one thing though, never stretch right before a workout. Do some flexibility warm ups but no actual stretching, stretching is homework

I disagree with this entirely. In fact, I stretch right before I do any squat routine. I do several static stretches. Then I do a dynamic work like a set or two of jumping squats. Sometimes if my groin or inner thigh is still feeling tight, I do some stretches in between sets. After my workout is all done, I head over to the sauna and repeat my static stretching routine again.

I have not had any problems while doing this. If I don't stretch before I do my squats, I feel tight in the groin & inner thigh, sometimes feel like its cramping. I am a big fan of static stretching.

I may not be lifting as heavy as some of the guys on this forum as I have only been doing it for the past 7 months but I have seen videos from professional strongmen like Elliott Hulse and Alan Thrall who do static stretches before they lift.

[Ryre]

(02-10-2015 03:23 PM)The Reactionary Tree Wrote:  

(02-09-2015 05:49 AM)Rangarr Wrote:  

Just one thing though, never stretch right before a workout. Do some flexibility warm ups but no actual stretching, stretching is homework

I disagree with this entirely. In fact, I stretch right before I do any squat routine. I do several static stretches. Then I do a dynamic work like a set or two of jumping squats. Sometimes if my groin or inner thigh is still feeling tight, I do some stretches in between sets. After my workout is all done, I head over to the sauna and repeat my static stretching routine again.

I have not had any problems while doing this. If I don't stretch before I do my squats, I feel tight in the groin & inner thigh, sometimes feel like its cramping. I am a big fan of static stretching.

I may not be lifting as heavy as some of the guys on this forum as I have only been doing it for the past 7 months but I have seen videos from professional strongmen like Elliott Hulse and Alan Thrall who do static stretches before they lift.

There's some research suggesting that a muscle is weaker right after being stretched, that's probable what Rangarr was referring to.

[Saweeep]

Ah, stretching.

The "research led opinion" on stretching has yo-yo'd back and forth about a million times in the 25 years I've been subjected to its fads.

[StrikeBack]

(02-10-2015 11:09 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

They also have 1/1,000,000 genetics, the best training, the best nutrition, and the best drugs.

There are plenty of flexible weightlifters at local levels who can squat well over 2x BW - it's hardly an impossible milestone regardless of flexibility.

If you keep telling yourself that other people only outlift you because of genetics, better training, nutrition and drugs, then mediocrity is where you'll stay.

[Teutatis]

(02-09-2015 05:23 AM)Mage Wrote:  

When I was much younger I trained at taekwondo and was able to nearly do splits. I lacked only a few mm to achieve a full split. After realizing it is a pretty useless sport and brings little value in practical self defense I have stopped training in it nearly a decade ago, however the challenge to perform a perfect split has always remained in the back of my head and I have realized that I must finally accomplish this to not feel like a quitter and my desire to master it has never been bigger.

Just to clarify this is what I mean by split (and not a training program):


The problem is in the meantime I have started heavy squatting as advised by many members of this forum influenced from sources like Strong lifts and Starting Strength and I really enjoy both the process and the benefits. After a year and half of squatting I currently squat 1.3 my body weight for reps and my long term goal is to reach 2x body weight. However I am somewhat worried if too great a flexibility in hips would cause safety issues or maybe my worries are unjustified and it would only help.

The funny thing is that this question cannot be googled. If I put words like "squatting" or "lifting" together sit the world "split" the google always thinks that "split" refers to a training program rather than making 180 angle with your legs.

So I have two goals and I must ask someone if these goals are go well together or are they excluding each other and I should choose? Does anyone have something to say on this?

Funny, yours is almost the same as my experience, I also did Taekwondo, I also almost performed the split, and I also stopped Taekwondo completely after realizing that it's not a good self defense training system. It was a lot of fun though.

For whatever it's worth while I used to train TKD I also weight trained and did a lot of squats, really, a lot, and it never hurt my flexibility. Of course, we're all different and what worked for me might not work for you, but I didn't find squatting interfering with flexibility at all. I haven't squatted in a long time though, nowadays I completely stopped it, and I have much better legs than I ever had when I used to.

[Teutatis]

(02-09-2015 07:58 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Holy shit. I did a GIS on the image and got this video. I had no idea, I missed out on this when it went viral.

Saw that video a bunch of times when it went viral, it was really great.

[Hannibal]

(02-10-2015 07:06 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

If you keep telling yourself that other people only outlift you because of genetics, better training, nutrition and drugs, then mediocrity is where you'll stay.

This needs to be said a lot more often.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(02-10-2015 07:06 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

(02-10-2015 11:09 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

They also have 1/1,000,000 genetics, the best training, the best nutrition, and the best drugs.

There are plenty of flexible weightlifters at local levels who can squat well over 2x BW - it's hardly an impossible milestone regardless of flexibility.

If you keep telling yourself that other people only outlift you because of genetics, better training, nutrition and drugs, then mediocrity is where you'll stay.

I said nothing about people out lifting me. And I am very far from mediocre. I run my own race, and set my own goals. You are probably one of those guys constantly looking at what everyone else is doing in the gym, who looks forward to showering naked with his "bros," and spends money on lots of bullshit supplements marketed to the gullible. Mirin'!!11!!
My point was not that squatting heavy and being flexible are incompatible. My point was that looking at what a top level world class olympic athlete does is not good evidence for generalizations on fitness.

[TheFinalEpic]

Olympic weightlifters are some of the most flexible people you will meet, and nobody (pound for pound) can out squat these guys.

[StrikeBack]

(02-12-2015 11:29 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

You are probably one of those guys constantly looking at what everyone else is doing in the gym, who looks forward to showering naked with his "bros," and spends money on lots of bullshit supplements marketed to the gullible. Mirin'!!11!!

I do in my powerlifting club, because I'm one of the coaches.

Unfortunately I don't shower at the gym (there goes your fantasies) and also only use whey protein as supps.

Quote:

My point was not that squatting heavy and being flexible are incompatible. My point was that looking at what a top level world class olympic athlete does is not good evidence for generalizations on fitness.

It tells you that it's humanly possible and serves as an inspiration. And you can at least give it a go to see how far you can get.

When I see Klokov being very flexible, working actively on his flexibility and hoisting up huge weights, I know I should also work on mine to move big weights, even if I don't lift anywhere near as much as he does.

Anyway, for some observations from my experience as a coach:

2xBW squat is a respectable lift, but also very achievable for the vast majority of men, even those who have no real natural talent in strength (myself included). If you're a lighter guy, you'll achieve it quicker than if you were heavier, but it's all very doable and doesn't take that long. 2.5xBW to 3xBW is harder, but also achievable for most average guys with hard work and smart training.

Having excellent flexibility and mobility will only improve you as a lifter. The more comfortable you can get into a position, the more force you'll be able to produce. Don't listen to the old wives' tale of being "tighter" (i.e less mobile) means you'll be stronger. That's an excuse from those whose federation allows them to squat really high and get away with it.

Of course there's a diminishing return: the squat, even the rock bottom high bar or front squat, only demands a medium level of mobility. Beyond that, it won't help you squat more weights. But if you can't squat rock bottom because of poor mobility, you should work on it. It will improve you in every athletic movement.

[Teutatis]

(02-10-2015 07:06 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

If you keep telling yourself that other people only outlift you because of genetics, better training, nutrition and drugs, then mediocrity is where you'll stay.

While I'm in total agreement that you should always strive to be a better version of yourself and push yourself more and more and never allow yourself to fall into mediocrity you're delusional if you think that someone with better genetics, better training, better nutrition and who takes drugs is not going to outlift you no matter what you do or how hard you work. I have been busting my ass and killing myself in the gym for years and years but I know that no matter what I do I will never outlift some guys are are simply bigger, stronger or that take drugs. It doesn't stop me from always trying to be a better me but I'm under not delusions that I will ever be at some people's level.

I think some of you take the "no excuses" thing too far. While it's a valid philosophy that I myself try to follow (even if I fail at it sometimes), recognizing that you have limitations is not staying in mediocrity, is being a realist. I will never be a professional athlete, or a famous actor or a singer or a billionaire or a weighlifting record holder. Does recognizing this makes me mediocre? No, I will always try to achieve more and more, but I'm not crazy and think any of those things are going to likely happen.

Mediocrity is believing that because some people are better then you at some things you convince yourself you're not good at anything and you're not even going to make an effort to improve in any area of your life and would just rather complain or fall into self pity.

[StrikeBack]

I'm not saying that you can be a Klokov through sheer hard work and will. But you can be a heck lot stronger than you think, even right now with all your supposed knowledge (because you'll get smarter). Don't set an arbitrary limit now when you have not yet tested yourself fully.

2xBW squat is nothing. It's a very achievable goal. If the OP were concerning himself with a 4xBW squat, then I would say something completely different. Now that is the domain of elite genetics and drugs.

I remember the first few weeks when I started to learn the deadlift (already been lifting for maybe 6 months, long time ago). I saw this big 100kg+ guy at the gym, who often freely admitted to juicing, barely pull 180kg with straps. I was a chubby 80kg guy who couldn't even do a single chinup at the time and already in my mid-20s. I thought to myself if I ever pulled 180kg in my life, I'd be a very happy man, because I clearly had no decent genetics nor drug advantage.

Well, after reading a few inspiring newsletters from a coach who told me exactly what I'm saying to you guys right now, I decided to erase the limit from my head, and ended up pulling 185kg about 5 months later, and these days it's just a warmup weight for me at 75kg BW. And I'm only a mediocre no-strength-talent drug-free lifter in my weight class. Guess what, many uninitiated guys at my gym think I have elite genetics and on the juice... That is the attitude I warn against in my post earlier.

Regarding drugs, recently I read this: http://www.strengtheory.com/the-science-of-steroids/

Check out the section with the heading: "Drugs work because you expect them to work" where it cites a study of people getting stronger through the placebo effect because they believed they were on drugs.

[Mage]

(02-12-2015 11:42 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

Olympic weightlifters are some of the most flexible people you will meet, and nobody (pound for pound) can out squat these guys.

Sure weightlifters are flexible, however what Klokov demonstrates in this video is not a very high flexibility. My question was about real good flexibility that allows for a 180 degree split.

I have seen many weightlifters show good flexibility but I have never seen one with a van Damme level of flexibility. And therefore the question if this would be too much.