[Wreckingball]

(01-26-2015 05:31 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

^ Haha. The last time I was there I was thinking how can this even be possible and how much frappe can these fuckers possibly drink in one day

I remember taking a bus to University at 9 in the morning and passing near a caffe and I saw some 20 dudes drinking coffee.
I got home around 17 and the same dudes were still there drinking coffee.

[DannyAlberta]

(01-26-2015 05:50 PM)poutsara Wrote:  

(01-26-2015 01:13 PM)DannyAlberta Wrote:  

... on what credit can a morally, psychologically and literally bankrupt nation continue to demand that it be lent more and more and more $$$ for social spending?

What is morally bankrupt about Greece?

blaming your country's financial problems on everyone but you when you made the wrong decisions is a clear symptom of moral bankruptcy (i.e. we need to be insulated from the consequences of all our actions because we are so darn special).

large groups of young north american women (and an increasing amount of young men) share a similar character deficiency.

[LouEvilSlugger]

How can you blame the Greek people when decisions were taken by former Goldman Sachs bankers? GS put their people in so they could loot the country. Unsurprinsgly, "austerity" plans in Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain, were written by bankers and economists connected to GS. Greek people have their faults, but they were sold out by their sycophantic political leaders.

[berserk]

(01-26-2015 07:01 PM)LouEvilSlugger Wrote:  

How can you blame the Greek people when decisions were taken by former Goldman Sachs bankers? GS put their people in so they could loot the country. Unsurprinsgly, "austerity" plans in Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain, were written by bankers and economists connected to GS. Greek people have their faults, but they were sold out by their sycophantic political leaders.

It's worse than that actually.

Goldman Sachs got called in to cook the books so Greece could join the Euro, while Draghi himself was working in Goldman. Now Draghi is leading the loot brigade against the very same country he helped fraud their way into the Euro.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-14...al-1-.html

Quote:

Greece hid 5.3 billion euros ($7.7 billion) of debt using currency swaps, the biggest of which were with Goldman Sachs, Eurostat, the European Union’s statistics office, said Nov. 15. Greece entered into a number of arrangements from 2001 through 2007 and their use, which it hadn’t previously reported as debt, helped push up borrowings, leading to the nation needing a bailout last year and triggering Europe’s debt crisis.

The rabbit hole is deep once you actually look.

These banksters are running a very sophisticated scam. First they promise the world to a country, i.e. join the Euro or get lots of money for short term public spending, then they work on creating political unstability. Then they create a fiscal crisis by calling in loans and then once the country is bankrupt, they get their stooges the IMF and World Bank to offer loans, but only if the country sells off all its publicly owned infrastructure and resources.

Greece, Argentina, Ukraine, same game, different name.

[Fatty McManjaw]

(01-26-2015 05:24 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

(01-26-2015 07:18 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

Of the people who claim the fundamental problem is that Greeks are lazy and don't want to work, are you currently living or have you lived for an extended period of time (1yr plus) in Greece?

I lived one year in Greece and my answer to your question is:
Yes.

You are lazy when:
You have two half days per week and each is paid as one full day.
You had minimum 14 months salary.
You had easter bonus, because you have to get a lamb for your family.
On the full days you work as much as on the half days.
The office hours are from 9-17 and it opens at 10 (and then they have coffee) and closes at 15(and then you have another coffee).
You cannot fire workers that are not working, because they will put chains on your door and have unions on your door.

You are poor when:
You don't produce enough to reach the break even.
Tuition is absolutely free for everyone (Greek and non-Greek), even though the costs are gigantic.
Students are entitled to free breakast, lunch and dinner (and it's not that bad)
Students are (or were) entitled to 2 free books per course.
Some students never open those books.
Some students then burn those 2 free books at the end of the year / university.
You subsidize dying businesses such as Ferry Boats between continental Greece.
You evade taxes like a boss. Covering your illegal pool with some material so that id doesnt show on a satellite picture.
You live in Zakynthos were 30 or 20 percent of the population is "blind" so you get benefits from the state.
You get a loan to pay your vacations in Asia or South America.

I compiled a "best of" list of Greece in the year 2010-2011. I need to find that.

Well said. I lived three years in Greece, during the current crisis, and I love the place and the people. Living there however is such a ginormous pain in the ass (I'm talking petty bureaucracy with the government, the electric company, etc) but actually starting a business or trying to hire someone is even worse. And God help you if you need to fire or lay off someone.

Greeks will tell you they are the most advanced country in the world as they are the only ones who have figured out how to make a latte last 4 hours. Their laid back lifestyle has a lot to be admired, unless you want to actually make a living.

Relevant: (source http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/ass...5%20AM.png)

[Sonsowey]

(01-26-2015 05:43 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Okay, so instead of austerity..what should they have done in your opinion? Continue to spend even more?

I know that drastically cutting government spending during a recession has only worsened it and made recovery more impractical. So a large amount of EU spending right now will help Greece's economy get out of a tailspin and make them paying back future debts more likely than if they are forced to suffer through a severe recession.

I have read many alternative ideas about how to solve it, and I am unsure what would actually work or be probable. I can't say for sure that Syriza is the solution. But the people advocating for more austerity certainly are not, and after 5 years, they need to change.

[Easy_C]

I'm starting to feel like a bit of a bastard, since my current post-military career has a good chance of taking me through two or three years at Goldman Sachs.



I do feel obliged to point something out. As far as I'm hearing the vote is much less of a pro-leftist vote than it is a vote against the European Union. The people of Greece are right to be angry at Brussels, as Brussels hasn't shown any limits to the hardships they're willing to put Greece through in order to protect their utopian "one Europe" project.

[Easy_C]

(01-26-2015 09:41 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(01-26-2015 05:43 PM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Okay, so instead of austerity..what should they have done in your opinion? Continue to spend even more?

I have read many alternative ideas about how to solve it, and I am unsure what would actually work or be probable. I can't say for sure that Syriza is the solution. But the people advocating for more austerity certainly are not, and after 5 years, they need to change.

Brief post here, but I highly suggest reading this author's other writings on the topic.

This link is the very short version and his bottom line: he suggests that debt restructuring is the best long term solution.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/15/15679/

[Feisbook Control]

Sonsowey: The idea that Greece couldn't have austerity and that more Keynesian stimulus was a better idea misses the entire point that I made in my long post before. It's still operating under the fantasy that Greeks could grow their way out of their crisis with more of the same. To reiterate: Greeks. Are. Not. Germans. They need to come to terms with this and deflate their egos. Everything has its equilibrium point. The equilibrium point (for standard of living) for Greece is considerably lower than that for Germany. Simple as that. Paul Krugman and his liberal, globalist, blank slate believers can wave their hands around and pretend Greeks and Germans are interchangeable, but that's not going to make it true.

(01-26-2015 09:39 AM)freeuser Wrote:  

Some of those ideas a really bad, Handsome Creepy Eel. Central banks need to be independent or else you end up with like Venezuela, Argentina or Zimbabwe. The temptation for ignorant and incompetent governments to just print money instead of raising taxes or reduce spending is just too big. Which leads to massive inflation. Again, like we can see today, in Venezuela, Argentina or Zimbabwe. It´s the same thing. That´s why every serious and rich country of the first world hast an independent Central Bank.

FIAT is not perfect, it has many flaws. But I don´t think that a gold reserve system would solve all those problems.

I neither think that central banks need to be dependent nor independent from governments. That's still assuming that a broken paradigm can be fixed. I think they shouldn't exist. Their very existence is going to create problems either way. What has happened all over the world, particularly in Europe, and especially in Greece, is that entire populaces have become beholden to a class of people who are doing their best to break their dignity and sovereignty from the individual right up to the level of cultures and civilisations; those people are engaging in a massive war against humanity and natural law that will ultimately be even more destructive the longer it is allowed to continue. They're blowing the mother of all bubbles, and the bigger it gets, the worse the inevitable pop is going to be.

I have no doubt that this Syriza government is going to be an absolute disaster for Greece in the short term, or that Zivi zid wouldn't be disastrous for Croatia either. Likewise, that there won't be a series of extreme populist swings back and forth from "far left" to "far right". However, these are necessary stepping stones to throwing off the yoke of the globalist agenda first and foremost, and then being able to eventually settle back into something sensible. The status quo is deeply flawed and needs to be changed. This is the beginning of the fatal conceits of universalism, liberalism, etc. finally being exposed. Where we go from here, I don't know. Populism isn't the way, and that includes democracy. Some might argue for a return to monarchy, some for a return to limited franchise republics, some for neocameralism. It's likely to be different from place to place. The point is though that Greece needs to be left the hell alone to find its own equilibrium, and yes, that's going to entail a lot of teeth gnashing from Greeks as they figure out that that's not what they thought it would be.

This is the thing I don't get about people who believe in this universalist, globalist project. On the one hand, they claim to be so into diversity, the dignity of man, etc. Yet they still don't get that GREEKS AREN'T GERMANS. They treat everyone like they're interchangeable mechanical pieces in a machine, scratch their heads when that doesn't work, and wonder why the "pieces" get pissed off that everyone keeps trying to jam them into a machine. It's like how I used to know someone who was a hardcore vegan who insisted on feeding her dogs vegan dog food. If you don't want to feed your dog meat, then don't have a dog. Get a rabbit. You can't make something into something it is not.

[Samseau]

(01-26-2015 10:07 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

The Original Stand-By Arrangement from 2010 originally foresaw Greece dipping into a mild recession and recovering quickly. This did not happen.



The plan also called for basically flat government spending from Greece, but instead, demands kept being ratcheted up, and Greece's spending dropped precipitously.



The huge dropoff in government spending depressed the economy further, causing government revenues to drop, causing Greek debt to continue growing. Austerity has led Greece down a terrible path and its problems are self-reinforcing. And some people want more!

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01...egion=Body

This is the problem with government spending in the first place.

Once the nation becomes hooked on government jobs and welfare, then the people become entitled and lazy.

When a depression or recession hits the government is starved for cash, but they cannot cut spending as people need the jobs and welfare to stay alive. So in times of recession the government is forced to spend even more on top of the fact they are going broke.

End result: Bankruptcy, massive devaluation of the currency, civil wars, massive death and destruction.

See: Post USSR, South American bankruptcies, French Revolution, etc.

Solution: Don't let the government get involved with the economy in the first place.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Feisbook Control, given that Greeks aren't Germans (with which I 100% agree), doesn't it make it even more imperative to get them into their own free-floating currency? Surely anything is better than the current situation with being locked into the euro.

In other words, a corrupt and inefficient Greece with drachma is still better off than a corrupt and inefficient Greece with euro, or even than an improved Greece (i.e. much less corrupt and inefficient than now) with euro. There are so many things wrong with being locked into an unrealistic exchange rate and no monetary sovereignity that I just don't see how the "Greece is corrupt/lazy" argument applies here.

No matter how you weigh the issues, the problem is primarily caused by the euro, and that's the problem that needs to be solved first. Same goes for Spain and Portugal.

[Easy E]

(01-27-2015 02:54 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Feisbook Control, given that Greeks aren't Germans (with which I 100% agree), doesn't it make it even more imperative to get them into their own free-floating currency? Surely anything is better than the current situation with being locked into the euro.

In other words, a corrupt and inefficient Greece with drachma is still better off than a corrupt and inefficient Greece with euro, or even than an improved Greece (i.e. much less corrupt and inefficient than now) with euro. There are so many things wrong with being locked into an unrealistic exchange rate and no monetary sovereignity that I just don't see how the "Greece is corrupt/lazy" argument applies here.

No matter how you weigh the issues, the problem is primarily caused by the euro, and that's the problem that needs to be solved first. Same goes for Spain and Portugal.

Problem with that thinking is that once you start kicking Spain and Portugal out of the euro, you essentially have to give up on the whole eurozone idea altogether.

I agree there is a big problem with the euro, but none of the solutions are going to be "easy" at this point.

All are going to involve a lot of pain.

Edit: ...and I pretty damn sure the EU is going to try and postpone the "day of reckoning" for as long as possible.

[Arado]

(01-26-2015 10:30 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Sonsowey: The idea that Greece couldn't have austerity and that more Keynesian stimulus was a better idea misses the entire point that I made in my long post before. It's still operating under the fantasy that Greeks could grow their way out of their crisis with more of the same. To reiterate: Greeks. Are. Not. Germans. They need to come to terms with this and deflate their egos. Everything has its equilibrium point. The equilibrium point (for standard of living) for Greece is considerably lower than that for Germany. Simple as that. Paul Krugman and his liberal, globalist, blank slate believers can wave their hands around and pretend Greeks and Germans are interchangeable, but that's not going to make it true.

..... Populism isn't the way, and that includes democracy. Some might argue for a return to monarchy, some for a return to limited franchise republics, some for neocameralism. It's likely to be different from place to place. The point is though that Greece needs to be left the hell alone to find its own equilibrium, and yes, that's going to entail a lot of teeth gnashing from Greeks as they figure out that that's not what they thought it would be.

This is the thing I don't get about people who believe in this universalist, globalist project. On the one hand, they claim to be so into diversity, the dignity of man, etc. Yet they still don't get that GREEKS AREN'T GERMANS. They treat everyone like they're interchangeable mechanical pieces in a machine, scratch their heads when that doesn't work, and wonder why the "pieces" get pissed off that everyone keeps trying to jam them into a machine. It's like how I used to know someone who was a hardcore vegan who insisted on feeding her dogs vegan dog food. If you don't want to feed your dog meat, then don't have a dog. Get a rabbit. You can't make something into something it is not.

This. If you look at the most recent PISA international test results, Greece does quite poorly in comparison to the other European countries, especially Germany. Without large deposits of resources such as oil, gas, or minerals, Greeks have to rely on their HUMAN CAPITAL for economic growth. Human capital will create capable workers and institutions that will allow them to fully utilize their talents. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Greece is just not producing competitive graduates, and for all of Paul Krugman's blustering, without the massive subsidies and loans, Greeks will never be able to enjoy a Northern European standard of living. The only way they will be able to export anything is by getting rid of the Euro, or turning themselves into Germans.

Syriza is living in la la land.

PISA chart available here:
http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/PIS...-I-ENG.pdf

[Benoit]

(01-27-2015 03:38 AM)Arado Wrote:  

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Greece is just not producing competitive graduates, and for all of Paul Krugman's blustering, without the massive subsidies and loans, Greeks will never be able to enjoy a Northern European standard of living.

If my experience with Greek students is representative, their failure to become competitive graduates is because it's lot easier to cheat at exams than in business.

Passing notes and whispered conversations in Greek from a huddle near the front were common throughout the exam halls, so much so that the university was forced to move to randomly assigned seating during exams.

I don't think we really know what the potential of Greece is at present, since very few people there have really had to excel in order to enjoy a good life. That's going to change.

[Paracelsus]

(01-26-2015 10:30 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

The status quo is deeply flawed and needs to be changed. This is the beginning of the fatal conceits of universalism, liberalism, etc. finally being exposed. Where we go from here, I don't know. Populism isn't the way, and that includes democracy. Some might argue for a return to monarchy, some for a return to limited franchise republics, some for neocameralism.

The time has come. Democracy is failing. It's time the veterans took control. What's not to like? Do it now, and in 200 years or so we'll have starships, interstellar travel, cybernetic limbs, psychic ability, fucking big machine guns, and a common enemy to fight!

[Glaucon]

(01-27-2015 05:16 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(01-26-2015 10:30 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

The status quo is deeply flawed and needs to be changed. This is the beginning of the fatal conceits of universalism, liberalism, etc. finally being exposed. Where we go from here, I don't know. Populism isn't the way, and that includes democracy. Some might argue for a return to monarchy, some for a return to limited franchise republics, some for neocameralism.

The time has come. Democracy is failing. It's time the veterans took control. What's not to like? Do it now, and in 200 years or so we'll have starships, interstellar travel, cybernetic limbs, psychic ability, fucking big machine guns, and a common enemy to fight!

[lowside]

Funny fact: the Goldman employee who got Greece into this mess was Greek herself (yes....a woman).

Radical times call for radical measures. I agree with most of you guys.

[iknowexactly]

(01-25-2015 10:17 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Yeah umm don't feel bad for those brat protesters who may have lost the luxury of sitting around from 20 to 30 pondering what kind of job they might like.

And a big fuck you from me Greece for stealing my us passport two times.

I always like a good rant from El Mech, could you elaborate more on how they stole your passport?

You know as I sit here collecting a gubmint pension, leisurely thinking about how the world should be run, I absolutely think austerity is a good idea ... for someone else...

I forgot who said this

" It is hard to convince a man of the logic of something when his paycheck depends on him not understanding."

Like the Goldman Sach's vampire squid.

The rich:

1) Declare a crisis.
2) Explain how they need a larger share of the pie to save you.

They do it like clockwork every 20 years:

1) 1980's -- the savings and loan "crisis"-- crony loans to bankers' friends went into development and -- oops!!!, we went bankrupt... where IS that money.....Jeb Bush won on this I think.

2) 2000's -- The CDO "crisis"-- oops, there's no money! I mean, no factories shut down, everyone's going to work, but there's a "crisis"!!! Let's lend billions to banks too big to fail without the public who's loaning them the money taking over a controlling interest in the STOCK. --oops! Where'd the money go!?

3) Just a few years to the next episode... stay tuned
"Oh my god there's a CURRENCY CRISIS! YES a CURRENCY CRISIS-- "Did someone burn up all the Francs yesterday? Well, no....
Did all the farms stop growing food? Well no...
You see you can't understand, it's too complicated... there's a CRISIS.. you need to suffer AUSTERITY now....

..and by some coincidence, after each "crisis" the .01% has more and more....

[Saweeep]

Greece has been in default for 50% of its history.

Plus ca change...

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

I hate to interrupt the the circle jerk of pro German pro austerity teach an irresponsible lazy Greek nation a lesson group think going on here, but the Germans had a much different opinion on austerity versus debt relief in 1953 when they successfully had 50% of their national debt forgiven, with sweetheart terms that limited the amount and timing of payments.
If that hadn't happened, West Germany would still be paying off that debt, and its economy would never have developed the way it has.
How about give the Greeks the same deal now? They deserve it more than the Germans did.
The Germans got it only 8 years after they nearly destroyed the world and led tens of millions to their deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_o...rnal_Debts

Quote:

The parties that were involved besides West Germany included Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Great Britain, Greece, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa, the United States, Yugoslavia and others. The states of the Eastern Bloc were not involved. The negotiations lasted from February 27 to August 8, 1953.[1]

The total under negotiation was 16 billion marks of debt resulting from the Treaty of Versailles after World War I which had not been paid in the 1930s, but which Germany decided to repay to restore its reputation. This money was owed to government and private banks in the U.S., France and Britain. Another 16 billion marks represented postwar loans by the U.S. Under the London Debts Agreement of 1953, the repayable amount was reduced by 50% to about 15 billion marks and stretched out over 30 years, and compared to the fast-growing German economy were of minor impact.[2]

An important term of the agreement was that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction.[3]

The agreement significantly contributed to the growth of the post-war German economy and reemergence of Germany as a world economic power. It allowed Germany to enter international economic institutions such as the World Bank, International Monetary Fund and World Trade Organization.

Some of the agreement included debts to be paid after the reunification of Germany. Over decades it seemed unlikely to transpire, but in 1990 there were another 239.4 million Deutschmark of unpaid coupons revived. On 3 October 2010 the last payment was made with 69.9 million euro.[4] This is considered to be the last payment by Germany on all known debts resulting from both world wars.

[Foolsgo1d]

Yes, but the Greeks are not Germans and if I am not mistaken the USA and European allies needed Germany on-side and on its feet to counter the Russians.

Germans are industrious and are capable of working towards a set goal. Try telling that to the countries in the Med. They rely on other peoples money and exquisite valuables such as bags, the sun, nice beaches, food and ancient buildings.

[lowside]

(01-27-2015 07:23 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

the sun, nice beaches, food and ancient buildings.

If they were smart, these are the only things they should have cared about. They could have lived comfortably off tourism. But no, they were ambitious, they wanted to compete with northern/western Europe.

[bojangles]

From what I'm reading here it sounds like the Greeks need a collectively slap across all of their faces.

[Wreckingball]

You can give a 100% haircut to the Greek debt. In 5 years they will be in the same situation. Simple economics dictates that you cannot spend more than what you receive. Simple economics does not exist in Greece.

Most people speak without seeing or having lived in Greece.
And going for a weekend in Athens does not count, because Athens is still a "developed" city. Go to Patras (3rd biggest city) and see what shithole it actually is. Public transportation is based on German buses from the 50's 60's and 70's. If you go 5 streets outside the main square, you will see buildings starting to fall apart, unfinished, dirty. You go 10 streets and you will see legions of illegals trying to loot big trucks.
You go to the hospital as a foreigner and don't pay a dime. They don't have IT systems in hospitals.
If you want to go to the south or the north or even Athens, you will not have a highway. (they were building one Patras-Tessaloniki).
Greece is very pretty. If you are foreign, rich and go to the islands for vacations. Heavily petty bureaucratic and a total nightmare for any citizen.


Greece is a heavy socialist country. one of the videos above mentioned the median age of Greece was, at the moment, 42. The young people left and who is going to pay the wellfare state for the old?

[Wreckingball]

A small list of benefits Greeks had:
Railways: Workers had a benefit for washing your hands
Electrical company: If you had drivers licence, you would get paid more (even if you didn't use it for the job)
Government: Bonus for carrying envelopes, speaking foreign language, use the computer or just... getting to work on time.

Lets not forget the case of the small Garden with 52 gardeners, or the politicians with 10 drivers.

Hiring people was used as a mean to gather votes. Most peoples would not show up. When they could not hire more or increase sallaries, they created benefits.