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Dear Free-Market People
#1

Dear Free-Market People

What do you have to say about this?





Would your "free-market" find the incentive to create amazing human breakthroughs like this, or would medical science begin and end with the boner drug?

Also, how does it feel to know that single-payer medicine is the most cost-effective sort of medical care out there?

Also, how does it feel to know your "free-market" system, which is what global capitalism is right now, is already coming about, with all of the free-trade agreements, yet you want to ruin your chances in competing by stripping our country of having any chance of competing by hoping to bring us back to the "good old days of the 1800s [thank the brilliant Samseau for this one]" where America was obviously such a driving force in the world.

I just have one thing to say:
R O F L, L O L, U MAD?
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#2

Dear Free-Market People

Even boner drugs use research sponsored by the government through tax-breaks and use of public universities.
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#3

Dear Free-Market People

I studied economics under some of the most libertarian teachers around. With that being said however, as capitilism evolves it becomes a system that devours everything in its path in order to obtain wealth. Just look at Goldman where they pushed shitty investments on their clients then betted against them so they could make money. But with that being said I am not smart enough to figure out better alternatives.

BTW Empire of Illusions by chris hedges does a great job touching on this
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#4

Dear Free-Market People

The problem with free-market types is that the ideology remotely makes sense--if you ignore half the story. That's why you see otherwise bright people being seduced by the seemingly logical, but ultimately flawed logic. Seemingly every election, I see some young, well-meaning people collecting signatures for LaRouche or Ron Paul or some other Libertarian cause.

Their arguments make a lot sense until you start asking questions like: "How do you deal with the issue of food safety, like tainted meat? How does the free market operate there? Will people stop buying certain meat when enough people die from e-coli poisoning?" They back-peddle and admit you need some food regulation. It starts there and quickly crumbles.

The selfish, profit motive only gets you so far. It doesn't account for the public good, things we all enjoy every single day without even thinking about it.

Sorry for the long cut-and-paste, but the best argument I've ever seen for this is short story called "A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican":

Quote:Quote:

A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican
By: John Gray

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, "We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have".

Tuthmosis Twitter | IRT Twitter
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#5

Dear Free-Market People

U just dont get it kerouac
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#6

Dear Free-Market People

Yes thank god for the fda, always banning things that would kill us like vitamin b17, trans fats and that horrible chemical that makes fruit ripen. Plus theyre always on top of food recalls. Dude now I feel like youre just being obtuse
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#7

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 03:02 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Yes thank god for the fda, always banning things that would kill us like vitamin b17, trans fats and that horrible chemical that makes fruit ripen. Plus theyre always on top of food recalls. Dude now I feel like youre just being obtuse

Well, that's exactly the point. The FDA is less effective today because 30 years of conservatives (and I include Clinton as a de facto conservative, by the way), have stripped a lot of its power and money in one way or another. It's not black-and-white. Bush perfected the technique of keeping regulation agencies in place, but putting people in charge of them that aren't going to do shit they're supposed to do.

That way, when shit goes haywire (as it will when you have people sleeping at the wheel), they can point at the FDA and say, "see, regulation doesn't work." That exact thing happened with that oil spill in the gulf, Hurricane Katrina, etc.

You can't have anti-government people running the government. They spend their whole time dismantling it and trying to prove that it doesn't work. It's like having vegetarians running your butcher counter. If you don't believe in government, don't govern.

Tuthmosis Twitter | IRT Twitter
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#8

Dear Free-Market People

I just feel like I'd care more if the girl in the video was at least semi-attractive... is that wrong?
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#9

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 03:28 PM)CJ Wrote:  

I just feel like I'd care more if the girl in the video was at least semi-attractive... is that wrong?

Shit, not at all. I'm sure that's what we all thought about first, before the political theory. I think she'd be alright if she lost a good 35-50 pennies.

The other thing that crossed my mind was: "wouldn't it be a miracle of science if a slimmed-down version of this chick were to, one day, give me a hand-job with that new hand."

That's even more wrong.

Tuthmosis Twitter | IRT Twitter
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#10

Dear Free-Market People

Free market?

These are all California State Agencies with offices, cars. cell phones, computers, staff…..

California Academic Performance Index (API) * California Access for Infants and Mothers * California Acupuncture Board * California Administrative Office of the Courts * California Adoptions Branch * California African American Museum * California Agricultural Export Program * California Agricultural Labor Relations Board * California Agricultural Statistics Service * California Air Resources Board (CARB) * California Allocation Board * California Alternative Energy and Advanced Transportation Financing Authority * California Animal Health and Food Safety Services * California Anti-Terrorism Information Center * California Apprenticeship Council * California Arbitration Certification Program * California Architects Board * California Area VI Developmental Disabilities Board * California Arts Council * California Asian Pacific Islander Legislative Caucus * California Assembly Democratic Caucus * California Assembly Republican Caucus * California Athletic Commission * California Attorney 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#11

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 12:09 PM)kerouac Wrote:  

Would your "free-market" find the incentive to create amazing human breakthroughs like this, or would medical science begin and end with the boner drug?

Personally I tried really hard to think what kind of real breakthrough a "free market" brought us recently, and failed to identify a single important thing. Space satellites, Internet, GPS, cell phones - nothing of it was researched or brought by the free market, all of them were military projects developed by DARPA.
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#12

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 03:02 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Yes thank god for the fda, always banning things that would kill us like vitamin b17, trans fats and that horrible chemical that makes fruit ripen. Plus theyre always on top of food recalls. Dude now I feel like youre just being obtuse

Translation: "What you said is seems to be true, and I have nothing reasonable to reply. But since I have to reply anyway, I'll talk about some completely unrelated bullshit in hope someone would argue with me about it and forget about what the original topic was about".

A typical personal-responsible Libertarian strategy I have to say.
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#13

Dear Free-Market People

The fda is never a good example, for either side, because of certain obvious critical functions that they provide contrasted with all of the politics and money that mars their existence and function to society.

Either side can use the example of the FDA to prove their case.

You cant live with 'em and can't live without 'em.
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#14

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 06:24 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

Quote: (04-21-2011 03:02 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Yes thank god for the fda, always banning things that would kill us like vitamin b17, trans fats and that horrible chemical that makes fruit ripen. Plus theyre always on top of food recalls. Dude now I feel like youre just being obtuse

Translation: "What you said is seems to be true, and I have nothing reasonable to reply. But since I have to reply anyway, I'll talk about some completely unrelated bullshit in hope someone would argue with me about it and forget about what the original topic was about".

A typical personal-responsible Libertarian strategy I have to say.

How is giving evidence of the FDA's inefficiency not directly related to the topic of conversation? Go fuck yourself shorty. You have way to much free time to be anywhere near the Casanova you claim to be.

There's no free market, in the world and especially not here. It's ridiculous to even argue that that is the cause of the problems we're facing. You people draw the worst conclusions, without factoring in, freedom enforces individual rights, where people have the incentive to create because they receive the fruits of their labor.

I am DONE speaking about this. Tuthmosis, that fucking article was about as condescending and inaccurate as anything I've ever read. If that's where we've gotten to, then I'm reluctant to even correspond on other issues. This whole fucking thread is basically trolling to begin with.
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#15

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 02:42 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

"A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican":

I work as a consultant with clients of the government (local, state, federal) and business (small and fortune 500), and I've learned over all these years that pretty much all this liberal/conservative/left wing/right wing ideology is all BS. From my dealings with government agencies, I've seen the inefficiencies as proclaimed by right wing adherents. But what they fail to mention is that businesses have the same problems with inefficiencies/bureaucracy that the government has. I could tell you stories and you wouldn't be able to tell which was which. Now I'm not saying that I'm a fan of no regulation. I've worked enough to see how anything will be done to save or make a buck whether illegal or not, but I've also seen how laws really dampen doing any type of business, and cause inefficiencies.

With that being said, this country has not had anything resembling a "free market" in a long time. One good book on this subject is Triumphant Plutocracy; the story of American public life from 1870 to 1920 by Richard Pettigrew, a former US Senator (it can be found for free here http://www.archive.org/details/triumphan...pettrich). It pretty much sums up how the government has been bought and paid for by large corporate interests.

Another good book is by Carroll Quigley and talks of corporate interests having control over economies as well by creating conflicting interests within countries. The conflicting parties constantly fight with one another, while they enrich themselves behind the scenes. ( Tragedy & Hope http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2006/10/119975.pdf)

For a good history on the history of economics in the USA, see the book Corruption of Economics by Mason Gaffney http://www.progress.org/gaffnint.htm It's an excellent book on how corporate interests dictate education to constantly develop supporters/detractors to suit their interests.

The best book I read on "free market" health care is "From Mutual Aid to the Welfare State: Fraternal Societies and Social Services, 1890-1967" by David T. Beito (bought from Amazon). It tells the story how poor Americans/immigrants/minorities afforded cheap, accessible health care and other social services despite low wages, corporate serfdom (coal mines, etc.), racism, etc. Now it wasn't without problems, but they provided the necessary services that people needed then and today (orphanages, old age homes, health insurance, life insurance, etc.). Why did they disappear? Because the New Deal and Unions passed and pushed for regulations that eventually made many of them illegal (such as lodge doctors) to impractical with tax rates (SS and Medicare and corporate sponsored insurances/benefits). For instance, did you know that it's illegal for hospitals to provide "free" health care in the US. Anything that receives government money, HAS to charge for services. See this old WSJ article... http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/news/Jan20...eCare.html

The quotes in the book by those who opposed the New Deal/Union benefits are quite foretelling because they warned of all the problems we are experiencing today. What can be given (by the government/business) can easily be taken away (by the government/business).

With that being said, all the talk about liberals/conservatives and right/left is just a distraction to us ordinary folks that only serves a purpose to those in charge. There is no free market, there is no non-biased government. They are just one in the same. It doesn't matter if it's at the federal level or at the local level. The only thing that changes is the amount of dollars. It's all just a giant scam, and we're all just pawns in the game.
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#16

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 12:09 PM)kerouac Wrote:  

Would your "free-market" find the incentive to create amazing human breakthroughs like this, or would medical science begin and end with the boner drug?

Also, how does it feel to know your "free-market" system, which is what global capitalism is right now, is already coming about, with all of the free-trade agreements, yet you want to ruin your chances in competing by stripping our country of having any chance of competing by hoping to bring us back to the "good old days of the 1800s [thank the brilliant Samseau for this one]" where America was obviously such a driving force in the world.

I'm pro-free market, but I definately agree there should be government funding for stuff like this, so you absolutely have a point there.

At the same time, though, what about all the detrimental stuff that government does with the tax payer's money? Wars (200 million+ dead by wars started by governments in the 20th century), bailouts of companies which should be allowed to go bankrupt, oppression of the people (even in democratic countries - in my country the government funded the coercive sterilisation of handicapped people), destroying the environment, I could go on.
All I'm saying is that the government isn't always the good guy.

Yeah, most free trade agreements are bilateral (as opposed to multilateral) which according to economic theory only leads to trade distortion. The WTO multilateral free trade agreement is also greatly flawed as the poor countries aren't allowed to trade their greatest asset (migration of cheap manual labour) which would be the best remedy for their poverty. Trade has only gotten freer, it's still far from free.To claim there is a free-market system in today's world is far from the truth.
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#17

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 01:10 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Even boner drugs use research sponsored by the government through tax-breaks and use of public universities.

This is good example of what I mean. That money could be used for cancer research or something.
I don't want to pay taxes to help other guys get laid. I haven't gotten laid in almost 3 years (first voluntarily, then unvoluntarily) and I don't see anyone giving me a tax-break or funding "game research" to help me out with that (neither would I want one) lol
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#18

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 10:28 PM)shanefalco Wrote:  

Quote: (04-21-2011 02:42 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

"A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican":

I work as a consultant with clients of the government (local, state, federal) and business (small and fortune 500), and I've learned over all these years that pretty much all this liberal/conservative/left wing/right wing ideology is all BS. From my dealings with government agencies, I've seen the inefficiencies as proclaimed by right wing adherents. But what they fail to mention is that businesses have the same problems with inefficiencies/bureaucracy that the government has. I could tell you stories and you wouldn't be able to tell which was which. Now I'm not saying that I'm a fan of no regulation. I've worked enough to see how anything will be done to save or make a buck whether illegal or not, but I've also seen how laws really dampen doing any type of business, and cause inefficiencies.

With that being said, this country has not had anything resembling a "free market" in a long time. One good book on this subject is Triumphant Plutocracy; the story of American public life from 1870 to 1920 by Richard Pettigrew, a former US Senator (it can be found for free here http://www.archive.org/details/triumphan...pettrich). It pretty much sums up how the government has been bought and paid for by large corporate interests.

Another good book is by Carroll Quigley and talks of corporate interests having control over economies as well by creating conflicting interests within countries. The conflicting parties constantly fight with one another, while they enrich themselves behind the scenes. ( Tragedy & Hope http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2006/10/119975.pdf)

For a good history on the history of economics in the USA, see the book Corruption of Economics by Mason Gaffney http://www.progress.org/gaffnint.htm It's an excellent book on how corporate interests dictate education to constantly develop supporters/detractors to suit their interests.

The best book I read on "free market" health care is "From Mutual Aid to the Welfare State: Fraternal Societies and Social Services, 1890-1967" by David T. Beito (bought from Amazon). It tells the story how poor Americans/immigrants/minorities afforded cheap, accessible health care and other social services despite low wages, corporate serfdom (coal mines, etc.), racism, etc. Now it wasn't without problems, but they provided the necessary services that people needed then and today (orphanages, old age homes, health insurance, life insurance, etc.). Why did they disappear? Because the New Deal and Unions passed and pushed for regulations that eventually made many of them illegal (such as lodge doctors) to impractical with tax rates (SS and Medicare and corporate sponsored insurances/benefits). For instance, did you know that it's illegal for hospitals to provide "free" health care in the US. Anything that receives government money, HAS to charge for services. See this old WSJ article... http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/news/Jan20...eCare.html

The quotes in the book by those who opposed the New Deal/Union benefits are quite foretelling because they warned of all the problems we are experiencing today. What can be given (by the government/business) can easily be taken away (by the government/business).

With that being said, all the talk about liberals/conservatives and right/left is just a distraction to us ordinary folks that only serves a purpose to those in charge. There is no free market, there is no non-biased government. They are just one in the same. It doesn't matter if it's at the federal level or at the local level. The only thing that changes is the amount of dollars. It's all just a giant scam, and we're all just pawns in the game.

nice recommendations. I would also add confessions of an economic hit man as well.
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#19

Dear Free-Market People

Any successful economy is a smart mixed economy. Adam smith never advocated the "absolute law of the jungle" because corporations have a short term view which has pros and cons and big corporations are as bad as big governments.
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#20

Dear Free-Market People

Quote: (04-21-2011 07:44 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

How is giving evidence of the FDA's inefficiency not directly related to the topic of conversation?

Oh, you were actually giving evidence? Really??? So far it looked like you just copypasted some libertarian propaganda again. I really doubt you even know what B17 is.
And you refer to your own statements as "evidence"? This isn't even funny.

Quote:Quote:

Go fuck yourself shorty. You have way to much free time to be anywhere near the Casanova you claim to be.

THAT's what I'm talking about when I say you libertarians are extremely weak. Most of you didn't even think about what you're actually promoting (and honestly most of you give the impression that you lack such an ability), so every time you see valid arguments which you cannot find the answer in libertarian propaganda, you end up with insults.

I really doubt anyone would need any other arguments to see how weak you really are.

PS. One day you'll be REALLY sorry for what you just wrote above.
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#21

Dear Free-Market People

This is not a forum for politics, though I'll make an exception for men's rights issues. Go to Huffington Post or wherever to talk about things like this.
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