[UnW]

Great thread Cobra, I'm a few years into my stint at a big 4 in Australia and it's great to see you answer these questions with such good detail and accuracy!

Although, most of these questions would vary in their answers based on location, happy to answer any big 4 questions from Australia.

[Cobra]

^^^ Good to have you here. I'm actually surprised there was such response to this and therefore very glad.

This is definitely delving into game territory but wondering:

How are the girls over there in Australia's Big 4 culture? Consistent with my description in the Data sheet?

[numanist]

I graduated in accounting last may with a cumulative gpa of 3.3 and a 3.6 gpa in my major. The college I graduated from was a reasonably good state university. I've had four interviews since then, and I have still not landed a full time gig. One was an internship with a mid-level cpa firm, one a non-profit, one a fortune 500 company, and the last a local production facility. In addition, I've also applied for entry level accounting positions at the hospital my parents work at. However, I heard through the grapevine that people with masters degrees were applying for the position. Why you ask? because there are hardly any accounting positions in my area, and if there are they usually require lots of experience.

Meanwhile, my friends who live in major metropolitan areas, all got jobs right after college. I on the other hand got a job out of despair, doing IT troubleshooting in a call center environment. The work is fast-paced, hectic, and pays a fraction of what a starting accountant would make. I would really appreciate some honest advice on how I can improve my situation. I really want to leave the nest as soon as possible.

[Peregrine]

(07-13-2014 10:06 AM)numanist Wrote:  

I graduated in accounting last may with a cumulative gpa of 3.3 and a 3.6 gpa in my major. The college I graduated from was a reasonably good state university. I've had four interviews since then, and I have still not landed a full time gig. One was an internship with a mid-level cpa firm, one a non-profit, one a fortune 500 company, and the last a local production facility. In addition, I've also applied for entry level accounting positions at the hospital my parents work at. However, I heard through the grapevine that people with masters degrees were applying for the position. Why you ask? because there are hardly any accounting positions in my area, and if there are they usually require lots of experience.

Meanwhile, my friends who live in major metropolitan areas, all got jobs right after college. I on the other hand got a job out of despair, doing IT troubleshooting in a call center environment. The work is fast-paced, hectic, and pays a fraction of what a starting accountant would make. I would really appreciate some honest advice on how I can improve my situation. I really want to leave the nest as soon as possible.

Have you considered applying for jobs in/moving to a big city?

[numanist]

Yes, I've applied to several. Unfortunately though, I think a lot of employers discard my resume when they learn that I don't live in the area.

[Richiavelli]

It's time for the tax add-on data sheet!

Typical Public Accounting Hierarchy

Tax Associate: 2-3 Years
Senior Tax Associate: 2-3 Years
Manager: 3 years
Senior Manager: 2-3 Years
Partner


But taxes are boring?

The classic tax answer is "it depends." While telling your friends you are a tax accounting is not "sexy," the tax profession is a technical field that requires knowing as much as possible about IRS regulations and how to apply them correctly in several client situations. Most corporations file form 1120, which is due 3/15. Most partnerships file form 1065 and individuals file form 1040, due on 4/15. In public accounting, we extend all tax returns to 9/15 for entities and 10/15 for individuals. This creates two distinct busy seasons.

I don't want to do tax because busy season sounds hard.

I think this is the biggest fallacy of tax. Auditors work hard when live on engagements. We both have our share of those 60, 70, 80 hour work weeks. Tax busy season runs late February to April 15th, and ramps back up July to October 15th. Early in your staff days, you are seen less for the amount of time you've worked and more for how many busy seasons you have been through. The reason why? You progress faster during busy season due to sheer volume of work.

Big 4 vs. Mid Tier/Local Firm Public Accounting vs. Company Accountants

I worked at mid-tier firms before recently getting into Big 4. Although you will work more, public accounting is the only way to go after college if you want to be an accountant. This is because the service of accounting is driving the profits of your company. If you become a fund tax accountant at a hedge fund, you are part of their "back office." Granted, heads of the back office funds or companies can make good coin. Going from back office to front office (i.e. being able to trade, make investment decisions, etc) is typically deflected as tough.

Big4 has revolutionized tax because of outsourcing. Most preparation of tax returns is pushed offshore. This is great and not so great for associates - while they are pushed into a reviewing role earlier, they may not be able to make changes with appropriate software in crunch time.

At the local public firm level, you typically do not see significant overtime incurred. At mid-tier, work is more cyclical - busy season are extremely rough, but off seasons are typical 40 hour work weeks. Big 4 has more year-round work, where you may never see a 40 hour week until after huge tax deadlines.

Tax typically has less outs than Audit.

But...at least I've never done a Cash Confirmation! Because tax is specialized, outs are typically not as plentiful. Typical outs are tax fund/company accountant for an internal company tax practice (for those in public 1-3 years) and VP of Tax (for manager and above). After you hit senior manager, you start becoming more specialized - and expensive. You may be a career big 4.

Some public accountants (1-2 years) will also leave for other roles outside of accounting that have better work/life balance. Companies like hiring from public accounting.

Most people get out of public accounting after hitting senior associate and hitting manager.

Pro's/Con's

Pro's:
-Tax requires less travel at staff level. Most auditors need to drive to client site, making for sometimes awful commutes. You drive to the office practically every day, making it a bit easier to keep relationships with coworkers and non-accounting friends.
-Tax can be seen like solving a puzzle where the answer is always subjective.

Con's:
-At the end of the day, you are doing taxes. People will get high-strung, but the best thing to do is stay positive and just remember you aren't doing rocket science.
-Busy seasons can wear you down. My worst stretch was working 6 weeks straight with no day off. In retrospect, I probably could have taken a day off.............

Can you go from Public Accounting to I-Banking?

Yes, but it is hard and not typically done. If you want to do I-banking, you need to start early (freshman year college) and have tight networking skill. It's probably easier to go from Big 4 to Boutique I-Banking.

$$$$$$$$$$$$
Typically tax accountants get paid marginally more than auditors. At staff level, this is maybe 2-5K. Mid-tier firms will pay more at staff level to try and entice you away from Big 4.

Girls

Why are you trying to game a coworker again? Most girls in tax are not as good as their audit counterparts. We work out of an office, you don't have to see us like auditors. One of the girls at my new office is the perfect definition of "an accounting 7."

A Word About the CPA

Like Cobra said, the CPA designation is essential to move up in Public Accounting. It is a barrier to entry for higher level accounting jobs. With a CPA, you can sign tax returns and other forms.

The CPA requirements are different in every state. Lucky for me, California remains one of the easiest states to sit for the CPA. You now need more units, but you still do not need a master's degree. Many students can get away with having to do an extra summer school stint and some online classes post graduation

My position on the Masters in Accounting falls along the lines of Cobra's analysis. Having a master's degree does not make you better. I see full time programs (1 year) as a way to get back into the recruiting pipeline. Firms love those with Master's in Business Taxation (MBT) because they can charge their clients more. Most MBT's have a job upon graduation, but remember - they are accounting jobs. You will get paid marginally better than your non MBT starting class (about 5-6k more for mid-tier firms).

Firms will pay for part time MBT programs. This is the only other time I recommend getting this: without having to take out debt.

Office Politics and moving up

Surprisingly, you need to play office politics. Everything from wallstreetplayboys.com is relevant. I got promoted faster simply because the partner I worked for liked me and thought I was extremely competent. That 6 week no day off stretch? That was her engagement that I grinded my ass off for. It let me skip a whole year of associate pay - most of my friends weren't even close the senior.

Turnover in public accounting hovers around 50%. Some leave for other accounting firms, other just get out.

Final Thoughts

I feel that public accounting is a great way to make a living. Lucrative money comes a lot later than it would in other finance roles. If you do your time in public, you are either promoted or shown an industry role. It reminds me of the military. Most accounting grads from target undergrad schools have jobs that pay 50-55k out of college for Los Angeles. It does make you wonder, if you are putting in this many hours already, why not double down the hours and move into I-Banking? Turnover is high but only allows for increased flexibility in moving up. Public accounting has a relatively "safe" career path that can make decent money after 5-6 years. Public accounting can fuck with your mind and will break you every so often. Such is career in professional services.

Experience: 2+ years public accounting tax

---

So how'd I do? Not sure if I should post this in a new thread or not...

[Richiavelli]

(07-13-2014 10:06 AM)numanist Wrote:  

I graduated in accounting last may with a cumulative gpa of 3.3 and a 3.6 gpa in my major. The college I graduated from was a reasonably good state university. I've had four interviews since then, and I have still not landed a full time gig. One was an internship with a mid-level cpa firm, one a non-profit, one a fortune 500 company, and the last a local production facility. In addition, I've also applied for entry level accounting positions at the hospital my parents work at. However, I heard through the grapevine that people with masters degrees were applying for the position. Why you ask? because there are hardly any accounting positions in my area, and if there are they usually require lots of experience.

Meanwhile, my friends who live in major metropolitan areas, all got jobs right after college. I on the other hand got a job out of despair, doing IT troubleshooting in a call center environment. The work is fast-paced, hectic, and pays a fraction of what a starting accountant would make. I would really appreciate some honest advice on how I can improve my situation. I really want to leave the nest as soon as possible.

If you want to do accounting, the answer is simple: do a masters in accounting at a reputable school in a large market. This will give you access to a recruiting pipeline that will easily give you the opportunities for a job.

[2014]

(07-13-2014 08:05 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

(07-13-2014 07:10 AM)2014 Wrote:  

what do you think of the CIMA, ACA and ACCA qualifications?

Shoot man. I could answer your question simply and blow off the bigger picture on how credentials fit into the big picture. But, in the spirit of what I have learned from many folks here, especially MikeCF, that would be dishonest. I could do another sheet just on this. Truth of the matter is that "extra" qualifications beyond "CPA" or "Chartered Accountant" designation in ANY country only go so far. Only experience can get you into certain jobs. For example the CIMA designation talks about how it will teach you how "Finance" and "Accounting" come together. Let's say when I'm looking at resumes as the Controller trying to hire a senior finance analyst for my finance team, two guys show up. One has a CMA (or CIMA) and has 2 years of experience at, let's say, McDonalds or Pepsi. And, I have another guy that has a CPA and has 2 years at a Big 4 firm. I will hire the latter dude, easily.

I remember this guy rolled in with a bunch of designations which included, CISA and CIA and he had solid experience in a few Corporations. I ended up hiring a girl that had 2 years of experience at Deloitte instead with no CPA (but she was working on it and convinced me that she'd get it done in the next year). And she did get it done.

Bottom line, don't expect designations to open doors for you but they can definitely grease the wheel once you're already on the ride.

Thanks for answering.

I've got an BA in Political Science and an MA in Teaching with Linguistics. Since it isn't a viable option for me to go back into a degree program right now, as 5 years out or longer with distance means I'd be early 30s upon completion, I have another follow up..

I'm from the UK and it seems that the CPA is US orientated?

It also seems that ACA is more UK orientated.

I'd be interested in either CIMA or ACCA as they seem to be valued all around the world and seem to me to be more general. Ideally, I'd take the ACCA or CIMA exams and get qualified then look for jobs abroad in Singapore or Australia, would this be a viable option, or do I absolutely MUST do a BA and MA in finance first?

Thanks for the thread!

[Peregrine]

(07-13-2014 10:59 AM)numanist Wrote:  

Yes, I've applied to several. Unfortunately though, I think a lot of employers discard my resume when they learn that I don't live in the area.

Put a friend's address and cell phone on the CV/cover letter.

[BostonBMW]

Great datasheet Cobra!

I have a few questions for Cobra and others in the accounting game. I work in Corporate Finance, no CPA, Finance undergrad, long term goal: to be CFO of an SME. I like the work and the company, however I have the following questions:

- Will getting a CPA, bullet-proof my career, by expanding opportunities laterally? Or do I need to go through the Big 4 grind? I have 6+ years experience, early 30s.
- I could get a CPA in my home state of MA or go for an easier eligibility through another state, has anyone converted their license?

I would need to take accounting credits and of course pass the CPA exam. This will cost me both $$ and time opportunity cost.

For any cats looking to fulfill the accounting credit requirements, be sure to check out these guys: http://www.efficientlearning.com/wileycp...ners/papp/

[Cobra]

I need to get back to the other questions but for the one above..

Being a CFO of the SME, do you do any Accounting? Let me know if you're not sure what I mean. If you don't, then your current position is CPA proof as it sounds more like a solid Finance role.

Regarding your question on expanding opportunities, it all depends on what you want. Do you WANT to get into an Accounting role? Like "Controller" ? If you do, then yes by all means get a CPA but as I mentioned in my sheet it's a "paper-view" job.

I know a guy that has a Finance background like yourself. He's all about Financial analysis And process improvement. He worked at Groupon and then at my last employer. Strong as hell background; great guy with lots of game. No CPA. He doesn't want to be an accountant. That's why.

Remember this always jedis: Accounting is about organizing and presenting the numbers whereas Finance is about making cash money. This is why Accounting is great when you're auditing (learn the business) but shitty when you're sitting down and putting together a bunch of unrelated numbers and organizing into one spreadsheet at a desk in a Corporation.

Bottom line, no CPA necessary if you are a Finance guy and have been on that route already. It won't close many "Finance" doors you as long as you are committed to that path.

[BostonBMW]

(07-13-2014 06:31 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

I need to get back to the other questions but for the one above..

Being a CFO of the SME, do you do any Accounting? Let me know if you're not sure what I mean. If you don't, then your current position is CPA proof as it sounds more like a solid Finance role.

Regarding your question on expanding opportunities, it all depends on what you want. Do you WANT to get into an Accounting role? Like "Controller" ? If you do, then yes by all means get a CPA but as I mentioned in my sheet it's a "paper-view" job.

I know a guy that has a Finance background like yourself. He's all about Financial analysis And process improvement. He worked at Groupon and then at my last employer. Strong as hell background; great guy with lots of game. No CPA. He doesn't want to be an accountant. That's why.

Remember this always jedis: Accounting is about organizing and presenting the numbers whereas Finance is about making cash money. This is why Accounting is great when you're auditing (learn the business) but shitty when you're sitting down and putting together a bunch of unrelated numbers and organizing into one spreadsheet at a desk in a Corporation.

Bottom line, no CPA necessary if you are a Finance guy and have been on that route already. It won't close many "Finance" doors you as long as you are committed to that path.

I work in a small company, so I wear many hats ranging from managing our investment, LBO analysis, assisting with sales analytics to the more financial accounting related tasks such month/quarter end close, management reporting, year end audits etc. I feel like I'm in that overlapping role because the finance group is so small at my company.

I'm definitely interested in the finance side of things, however figure that accounting/CPA could be a good "fall back" option (no offense intended) in case the job market tightens up or a smaller enterprise is looking for a person with both finance and accounting background. As a finance guy, will I have the "credibility" to do accounting tasks in a different organization? Also will I be making more $$ due to the CPA?

Bottom line is that I need a W2 income while my Real Estate venture gets off the ground and having a job/stable cash flow is critical for the next 3-5 years. Even after doing the RE thing, I want something that I can rely on for $$ in case the RE market tanks. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a Finance guy who thinks like an actuary

+1 for the response.

[Cobra]

^^^ My original response was intended to be general but since I have more information I can hone in a bit better. I will go based off a recent real life experience so you have an idea. But I will cover some deeper examples later in a separate post or article on hiring and firing that I mentioned I would do.

A guy I used to work with was a Finance major with about a 3.5 GPA and started at a large Corporation. He worked there for 6 years. Then he came to XYZ, another company ($1 billion public, manufacturing). He busted his ass and was promoted to Business Unit Controller. This role also included some "Accounting" tasks such as month-end close responsibilities. Recently the company got purchased. He got laid off. While he was a Business Unit controller at the last role, there is almost NO WAY that he will be able to land another Controller job doing the same thing because he didn't have a CPA. RESo that role is now closed off to him. A shame because the experience he garnered means nothing. The best he can do is get a Finance Manager role or maybe VP of Finance at a SMALLER “manufacturing” (closing doors to other industries like maybe Financial Services) company because of his smaller amount of experience he acquired at the last company (remember he spent an inordinate amount of time on Accounting tasks that don't count for these roles). This is a more EXTREME example.

I honestly would be able to give you a much better answer if I saw your resume and compared it to available jobs in the market. This way I could tell if I would hire you in their shoes for THAT ROLE. I’m taking a wild guess that you work for a smaller company (sub $500 million) and if that’s the case you will be standing out with a “CPA” for sure because I don’t see other candidates in that niche having it and if they do they won’t have your more VERSATILE background. That being said, look at the opportunity cost of leaving your current lifestyle to get enough credits to sit for the CPA. If you have a family, you will find that it will take a while and will be a decent chunk of $$. And your family life will take a huge hit. Everyone is different, but my suggestion is DO IT since you did some Accounting; so you can bank that experience.

People categorize themselves a lot and basically shut their mind off to versatility. Versatility always opens doors in the Accounting/Finance world. That's why Big 4 professionals always find a job.

[jimmyjohns]

Gonna go ahead and chime in as the middle of the road accounting graduate (Good grades, average State U):

In college was in a social fraternity, interships with f500, couple local cpa firms and did some bookkeeping in my early years for a few small businesses for extra scratch. Had pretty solid grades (3.7ish) despite partying the entire time.

I ended up doing tax work for a bank. Specifically, I did hedge/pe tax for institutional clients at a massive corporate bank. I would eventually have to switch to reviewing chinese/indians work if I wanted to stay long-term (guys with a couple years of experience would review 6-8 Chinese employees' work).

I became pretty solid at Excel though this job and gained some fairly intricate knowledge (PFICs, foreign tax credits, blocker corps, carried interest, REITs, MLPs, Commitments). The hours were great 40 per week with some OT up to 60-70/wk, with excellent work from home opportunites. The pay wasn't where I wanted it, was making about 35k/year. Left after 8 months or so.

I now work for a small public CPA firm in a small town (50k) with about 50 employees and a handful of partners. We do not have seperate audit/tax departments, I'm a staff accountant. I audit small entities and my tax clients run from a few million down.

I work 40/wk and have bursts where I work a lot more. Tax season (Feb-Apr and Sept/Oct) is 70-80/wk and audits can take a lot of travel time and some OT (50-55 hr wks). I get overtime banked as either additional time off or YE bonus. total compensation around 45k. CPA will probably result in a raise of about 5k.

Short-term goal is to pass the CPA exam (taking BEC in OCT).

Long-term I plan on transitioning into seasonal tax work for a local firm (figure 70-80 hours a week) and doing remote work arrangements while traveling the rest of the year. (I figure 5 months of hard work and 7 months part-time on-the-road).

Sometimes I wish I'd gone to a better school and gone the route descibe by the other members. Overall, accounting has treated me pretty well and is a decent career option even if you don't go massive public (obviously less lucurative) There will always be demand for technically skilled numbers people.

If anyone got any questions to send my way feel free to ask. I'd love to give back to the forum.

-JimmyJohns

[UnW]

(07-13-2014 08:46 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

^^^ Good to have you here. I'm actually surprised there was such response to this and therefore very glad.

This is definitely delving into game territory but wondering:

How are the girls over there in Australia's Big 4 culture? Consistent with my description in the Data sheet?

The culture here is pretty hard working but not as bad the as the US (We don't usually work Saturdays during busy season). Girls are pretty masculine here, the ones that work hard and are keep on jumping the ladder usually have stable bf's or no man, some are on the carousel.

There's a fair bit of internal banging within the firm I'm at too, but I tend to stay away from that to avoid the gossip rounds.

Quality is generally pretty good, there's always 7-8's around who are always getting attention from the herbs in the office and also our clients.

Also agree with another point that Cobra has mentioned, I've met some really awesome girls at my firm, that were feminine, interesting and really sweet too, so there's a mix of everything. Most do come from decent family backgrounds. I'm actually sitting next to one right now who lives in one of the best suburbs in my city and is pretty sweet but works too hard to be riding tons of random dicks and partying.

Cobra's datasheet is really solid, I can't emphasize that enough.

[Cobra]

(07-13-2014 10:59 AM)numanist Wrote:  

Yes, I've applied to several. Unfortunately though, I think a lot of employers discard my resume when they learn that I don't live in the area.

I read your other post too. I think you're being too hard on yourself and maybe not taking enough RISK. If you graduated from a good university, work your connections. Get on Linkedin; check my article on ROK for some basic Linkedin tips. Do you want to have a STRONG career or do you want to have a COMFORTABLE career? If the former, you should move to the city. If the latter work for a hospital.

And, no I have never "discarded" a resume for someone being out of town. Your cover letter can say you want to move. I hired a girl (fucking gorgeous but besides the point) that moved from the next state.

And, have you been talking to recruiters? In our profession, they can be just as much a help as a hinderance.

(07-13-2014 11:19 AM)Richiavelli Wrote:  

It's time for the tax add-on data sheet!
....
So how'd I do? Not sure if I should post this in a new thread or not...

Money! Thanks +1. I may have some questions later for you.

(07-13-2014 12:12 PM)2014 Wrote:  

I'm from the UK and it seems that the CPA is US orientated?

It also seems that ACA is more UK orientated.

I'd be interested in either CIMA or ACCA as they seem to be valued all around the world and seem to me to be more general. Ideally, I'd take the ACCA or CIMA exams and get qualified then look for jobs abroad in Singapore or Australia, would this be a viable option, or do I absolutely MUST do a BA and MA in finance first?

My experience is ALL USA even though I have worked with numerous folks from the Big 4 offices of overseas markets. So yes, CPA is the United States' "Chartered Accountant" designation.

I'll answer the question broadly first ensuring that the "International" regulatory atmosphere is addressed. Then I can get a bit more specific about the USA equivalent of those designations which you asked about. And then I will make an assessment on the designations you mentioned from within the shoes of maybe a Singaporean hiring manager.

The regulatory atmosphere especially in Accounting is converging and within a few more years, there will NOT be a whole bunch of accounting standards. People will be accounting for ALL, including complex transactions, USING ONE STANDARD. I believe that all of the countries' "Chartered Accountant" training (including the US CPA) reflects the updated International standards in its exams currently or will shortly. These designations are prestigious because they require a lot of training and prerequisites.

So about designations other than a CPA or "Chartered Accountant" on the other hand? To me, they are useless. They individually do not require you to bust your ass as much (education, studying, hours of testing) as a Chartered Accountancy / CPA. To a smart hiring manager at a large company, it means someone can take a test. That's it.

So in substance, doing a UK Chartered Accountancy (I believe prestigious in its own right) will not necessarily hurt you compared to some International designation since you are covering International Standards anyway. I also checked the websites for the designations you mentioned. They basically are trying to substitute the practical knowledge that you get from real life work experience (or even an MBA) into a shorter set of modules. YES, you gain additional knowledge on top of a Chartered Accountancy, BUT is it really so prestigious and gives you knowledge ABOVE AND BEYOND an MBA or Finance program at a prestigious university? I would say HELL NO. I say this because I know that the CMA (The USA equivalent of a CIMA) doesn't really provide a groundbreaking case to hire someone like for example a USA CFA (Certified Financial Analyst) designation does (which is hard as fuck by the way).

So what's a Singaporean hiring manager to do. If I were him, I would basically see that you have a solid UK Chartered Accountancy designation and a solid MBA and just hire you above the guy that has those other designations but doesn't have the experience to back them up, I would say he's probably a better fit for a smaller organization.

I've seen guys walk in with a US CIA and CISA and maybe a few other designations too BUT NO CPA. Their work history reflected their lack of motivation as well. So I tossed the resumes in the trash.

Disclaimer being: I don't know the International market; I'm just noting what I would do.

[Cobra]

Essential asked me via PM to give him an idea on paths to take in Finance instead of Accounting especially other than IB. My response posted below for all to benefit.

Quote:

IB can be kick ass dude. Search Westcoasts' posts and you can get more info there. You can make $100k starting but you'll bust your ass for 70+ hours a week at a reputable firm.

Corporate Finance is different. The topmost Finance hustle I've seen a guy do is go for a "Internal Audit" rotation program at GE. It's 100% travel and lots of ass busting work learning all the businesses of GE for a few years and then placed as one of its officers when successfully completed. It's been about 10 years. Dude's a VP now and if he picks up his game he can be close to the CFO soon. Many LARGE firms (e.g. Motorola) have such rotations and you should look look out for these if you want to go that route.

If not you can start off as a Financial Analyst at a smaller size firm and work your way up to maybe Controller and even CFO. You will make a decent lower 6 figure max potential living with this but you will pigeonhole yourself into smaller companies (although not smallest) and likely will not be able to get into a big dog like GE later.

His follow up questions:

Quote:

What are the salaries like in corporate finance out of school and a few years in (if you know)?

Also, what type of smaller companies do you mean regarding being a Financial Analyst at and having an end goal of Controller or CFO there? Any names you could give an example of just so I can get an idea.

Right out of school you can expect to make about $50k give or take $5k at a smaller company (<$1 billion annual revenue) as a Financial Analyst. Now, this will vary off of the $50k depending on the market as well. For example, not only will NYC salaries be higher but you will also have more options as an analyst. There may even be better pay in the "Financial Services" markets, for example, hedge funds. This is not an area I'm terribly familiar with but anyone that is can chime in.

I consider FTD to be a smaller company that is not too small but not too huge (<$700 million annual revenue). I can expect that there will likely be a couple Finance Manager and a couple analysts in that group, maybe a few more but that's it. That and a Director likely reporting on behalf of the Finance team to the CFO.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=FTD+Key+Statistics

In contrast, if you look at a Microsoft or something, you are looking for a Finance team for each of their divisions, which may include categories like Xbox and Smartphone apps probably grouped together based on similar business indicators. There will also be a Corporate Finance, which likely follows a rotational approach like I mentioned above likened to GE's.

[BostonBMW]

(07-13-2014 07:21 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

^^^ My original response was intended to be general but since I have more information I can hone in a bit better. I will go based off a recent real life experience so you have an idea. But I will cover some deeper examples later in a separate post or article on hiring and firing that I mentioned I would do.

A guy I used to work with was a Finance major with about a 3.5 GPA and started at a large Corporation. He worked there for 6 years. Then he came to XYZ, another company ($1 billion public, manufacturing). He busted his ass and was promoted to Business Unit Controller. This role also included some "Accounting" tasks such as month-end close responsibilities. Recently the company got purchased. He got laid off. While he was a Business Unit controller at the last role, there is almost NO WAY that he will be able to land another Controller job doing the same thing because he didn't have a CPA. RESo that role is now closed off to him. A shame because the experience he garnered means nothing. The best he can do is get a Finance Manager role or maybe VP of Finance at a SMALLER “manufacturing” (closing doors to other industries like maybe Financial Services) company because of his smaller amount of experience he acquired at the last company (remember he spent an inordinate amount of time on Accounting tasks that don't count for these roles). This is a more EXTREME example.

I honestly would be able to give you a much better answer if I saw your resume and compared it to available jobs in the market. This way I could tell if I would hire you in their shoes for THAT ROLE. I’m taking a wild guess that you work for a smaller company (sub $500 million) and if that’s the case you will be standing out with a “CPA” for sure because I don’t see other candidates in that niche having it and if they do they won’t have your more VERSATILE background. That being said, look at the opportunity cost of leaving your current lifestyle to get enough credits to sit for the CPA. If you have a family, you will find that it will take a while and will be a decent chunk of $$. And your family life will take a huge hit. Everyone is different, but my suggestion is DO IT since you did some Accounting; so you can bank that experience.

People categorize themselves a lot and basically shut their mind off to versatility. Versatility always opens doors in the Accounting/Finance world. That's why Big 4 professionals always find a job.

Good points. You're right about working in a smaller company (Sub $500M). Of course anything can happen during the course of the career which is why I am trying to solidify experience + credentials as a means of ensuring that I will continue to make a decent wage, while stacking up RE assets.

At this juncture, I'm trying to make sure that I have as many insurances as possible. Appreciate all the insights.

[pt8498]

My goal is not big 4 or public accounting. I am going to be a senior in college so it's too late for me to join a business fraternity and run for office. Can you please give me tip and guide lines on how to work the career fair, land a corporate/industry accounting internship, and get a full time offer by the time I graduate? Is getting a corporate/industry accounting internship competitive? What do the recruiters look for? What is the interview like? etc.

Thanks.

[Cobra]

(07-14-2014 04:10 PM)pt8498 Wrote:  

My goal is not big 4 or public accounting.

Big 4 and public accounting do not need to be goals. I see it as "means to an end," whether that goal is Partner or Corporate Accounting. What is your reason for avoiding them? Hours or lower GPA? You don't have to answer but in order to understand your true goals, at least you need to ask yourself this.

Bottom line question, why AVOID a place which can boost your career. For example, if you GPA is low, that's okay; if you join a midsize Accounting firm and do well, you may be able to land a Corporate industry job AFTERWARDS at a large Company which you would not otherwise be able to right out of college.

(07-14-2014 04:10 PM)pt8498 Wrote:  

I am going to be a senior in college so it's too late for me to join a business fraternity and run for office.

It's never too late. Maybe you can't run for office. BUT, you can at the very least join or even just go to their events where the professionals from companies show up. These companies may include Corporations, not just Big 4. You are SERIOUSLY diminishing your options by not connecting with anyone in these groups. I would say show up at one of their meetings and show your interest.

I mean, why AVOID a group that can give you a network of like-minded people that will boost the achievement of the very goals you strive for. This may seen irrelevant, but remember, some of these guys will be very successful and you will be thankful for a potential connection you make through them maybe 6 - 10 years down the line.

(07-14-2014 04:10 PM)pt8498 Wrote:  

Can you please give me tip and guide lines on how to work the career fair, land a corporate/industry accounting internship, and get a full time offer by the time I graduate? Is getting a corporate/industry accounting internship competitive? What do the recruiters look for? What is the interview like? etc.

You have decided to avoid the two key paths (above) which would be my primary ways in to land a "full-time" offer from a Corporate firm. I would say, take the ego out of the picture and do as much as you can to advance your career. Showing up at a career fair will not do that for you. As far as internships and high profile jobs are concerned, career fairs are a joke.

Recruiters look for connections. Take a listen to Danger & Play's podcasts and Christian McQueen's recent ROK article on how to be charismatic. Use those simple techniques to build connections. For example, most people show up at a career fair deluded into believing that they will land a job without any "pre-gaming." Interviews are the same; you can build rapport with these guys for free at the fraternity meetings before the interview so the interview is a formality. I will cover these in more detail in a later post or article. Campus interviews are "behavioral," meaning they are checking to see if you are socially compatible with the company. Thus, generally, no technical questions are asked of a college graduate as a general rule.

Reason I rambled above was to give you my honest perspective. I'm not going to give you a BS answer. Basically, there are significantly less internships at Corporations than at Big 4 and other large Accounting firms, who in contrast actively and primarily use internships to screen out the best candidates. So, yes, Corporate internships are MORE competitive in that regard and if you are going to CONFINE yourself to that path, would need to use as many opportunities as possible and therefore WORK SMARTER than your peers to land one.

[Hendrix90210]

Great overview of how public and private accounting fit into the wider corporate world. I'm an ex-big 4 auditor (3 yrs there) in Australia.

What I would add to this discussion is this:

Most people who go into the hectic world of Big4/Big Corporates get so caught up in the hours ad lifestyle (money rich - but not at first/time poor) that they end up 'becoming' so much like the mostly boring vacuous materialistic consumers that exist in these places. It's hard to resist the 'blue pill pull'.

Accounting is a means to an end - at the top tiers, you can become a corporate/partner boss-man and make serious money - if that's what you want, great but there is a 25 year life investment in attaining that end. The lifestyle is not compatible with being a player, traveller or poosy paradise hunter. Most end up in LTRs pretty early on in this world.

Disclaimer:I burned out from the hours and stress, took a career break travelling, and now am working on developing tax specialist skills (at the boutique firm I'm in now). My aim is in 3-5 years (of full-time) to have saved ~300k, developed enough skill and some clients, and complete CA (cpa equiv) that I can go out on my own - location independent, and take my laptop to greener pastures o/s and earn western money.

I've written about this topic area at my blog, Treason and Treachery:
What is wealth: http://wp.me/p4n7vv-1J
Why you need an online business: http://wp.me/p4n7vv-1p

[pt8498]

(07-14-2014 10:31 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

What is your reason for avoiding them? Hours or lower GPA?

Bottom line question, why AVOID a place which can boost your career. For example, if you GPA is low, that's okay; if you join a midsize Accounting firm and do well, you may be able to land a Corporate industry job AFTERWARDS at a large Company which you would not otherwise be able to right out of college.

It's never too late. Maybe you can't run for office. BUT, you can at the very least join or even just go to their events where the professionals from companies show up.

You have decided to avoid the two key paths (above) which would be my primary ways in to land a "full-time" offer from a Corporate firm. I would say, take the ego out of the picture and do as much as you can to advance your career. Showing up at a career fair will not do that for you. As far as internships and high profile jobs are concerned, career fairs are a joke.

I appreciate your honesty, it's what I need. My reason for avoiding public accounting and striving for Big 4 is because I am looking for a balanced lifestyle. Making loads of money from accounting is not my concern, my concern is to get a stable job, work for 2-5 years, have time outside my job to work on stuff, and use my money elsewhere. I have a mentor and have things lined up for me where I am positive I am not going to pursue the accounting career path for the next 7+ years. I am not looking to work towards to partner/CFO in accounting at all. But I also have to be honest to myself that I am scared or unwilling to put in the work to strive for the top, I rather do 'just enough' to land an average/lower tier accounting job. Yes, you are right. My best next step is to join a business fraternity/organization to network and 'pre-game.'

[StudebacherHoch]

Doing the CPA is definitely the way to go if you want to move high up the accounting/finance ladder. I got into accounting through financial planning; my degree is in music composition, so that threw wrenches in most conventional accounting job ops. My ability to schmooze coupled with my attention to detail landed me a controller position 21 years ago (been in finance/accounting for 35 years); I've ridden this particular gravy-train right up to the pending "gold watch ceremony" in the next year or so...it's beat the hell outa' being a starving musician!

[Cobra]

(07-15-2014 01:04 PM)pt8498 Wrote:  

I appreciate your honesty, it's what I need. My reason for avoiding public accounting and striving for Big 4 is because I am looking for a balanced lifestyle. Making loads of money from accounting is not my concern, my concern is to get a stable job, work for 2-5 years, have time outside my job to work on stuff, and use my money elsewhere. I have a mentor and have things lined up for me where I am positive I am not going to pursue the accounting career path for the next 7+ years. I am not looking to work towards to partner/CFO in accounting at all. But I also have to be honest to myself that I am scared or unwilling to put in the work to strive for the top, I rather do 'just enough' to land an average/lower tier accounting job. Yes, you are right. My best next step is to join a business fraternity/organization to network and 'pre-game.'

I can't speak much to your venture outside of Accounting. BUT.. you want FLEXIBILITY to have some personal time. Problem with flexibility is that you can end up in a very un-FLEXIBLE job if you just do career fairs and apply for jobs.

Reason: A two hour interview masks the discrepancies of a job position under the veil of formality. By building even a small network of people in the frat or other groups, you are getting more HONEST INFORMAL information which actually could help you obtain a job that you actually may end up having more flexibility with.

That's the problem with a JUST ENOUGH mentality. People lock themselves into a system someone else created.

Mentors are great. I wish I had a good one. You are lucky. The problem is if they are not family or really close friends, they can only do SO MUCH.

Take advantage of the available networking now because once you lock yourself into a job, your opportunities for networking diminish significantly.

[Cobra]

(07-15-2014 05:15 PM)StudebacherHoch Wrote:  

I got into accounting through financial planning.

Can I interest you in a rep point?

Would you be willing to put up some detail on getting into this and career prospects?

I didn't cover because it is not part of a traditional Accounting path and feel I don't know about it.

I think it'll help a lot of people especially with non-Accounting backgrounds such as yourself.