[Macchinario]

Here's the thing: I need to save my brother, and I'm pretty desperate to the point of asking help from strangers on the internet. Would you please have some insight of what could be done?

The situation: I've left my parents home 20 years ago, and that made my life a lot better. My middle brother did the same, and he is pretty successful in his own.

The problem is my younger brother. My parents completely botched his education and his confidence in a way that didn't happened to us, and he's stuck living with them. He's fat and uneducated, with no job and nothing else going on, being completely dependent of our parents.

They're pretty content with this situation, but I can tell that my brother isn't. Recently he started to do little riots against his own situation - losing massive amounts of weight due to some extreme walking. Sometimes he goes for a 3-4 hours walk. He already told me he can't take anymore and that he thought of just disappearing for good. Me and my other brother are completely supportive of him, and we're trying hard to get him to start finishing high school to get a job, and to help him get his life going.

The BIG problem are our parents. As I said, they're pretty content with the situation. My dad is completely indifferent of what he wants, and my mom keeps telling what to do and how. She sees my younger brother as her "baby" (he's 30), and any move of independece from him is considered an agression, a thing that will the "her" kid from her. Since he's becoming relentless, mom is taking him to a psychiatrist. Meanwhile, my dad call him ugly and useless, and jokes about the situation. It's a completely oppressive place for him to be, and I believe this happened so my parents wouldn't need to deal with each other since they're married for +30 years.

This situation is going for years and years, and my brother and I always try to get him to do something but nothing ever happens. Our parents don't help, or do things to block and discourage him. What could I do? Does anyone have some insight, please?

[Cincinnatus]

How old is your youngest brother? Can you or the middle brother move him into one of your own residences?

[Macchinario]

(05-18-2014 08:12 PM)Cincinnatus Wrote:  

How old is your youngest brother? Can you or the middle brother move him into one of your own residences?

He's 30. There's a situation in my home that disallows his stay, and my brother is married, with his wife being supportive but without the possibility of taking him home.

EDIT: Ok, here's the situation: I'm married, and my wife's brother had an issue during a hard time for us, and she wanted to bring him home to live with us, and I denied it. This led to a fight, but it was understood that this was better for us. Today things are better, but we set an agreement to not bring family issues home to preserve the marriage.

[polymath]

The only force that will make him want to leave, is him.

You have to show him that the perils of staying will confine him to a life of misery. I would say that he needs three things:

1. Example. You can be a positive role model that shows him it's possible to fix things in his life.
2. Opportunity. He can't get out if he has nowhere to go, and he can't find a place to go if he can't pay for it.
3. Pressure. Part of leaving a bad situation is realizing how bad it is and wanting nothing more than to escape. Your brother needs to feel that his situation at home is untenable. This means your parents need to stop discouraging him and start treating him as a man.
   

Parents can be the worst force in a person's life because society usually gives them the right of way. Unfortunately, having your parents discourage your brother is a form of poison that can absolutely shred the motivation that would otherwise carry him out of there. I think this is because as children, we tend to over-value and over-trust parental input. The key is to get them to pressure your brother to stand on his own feet not by crushing his spirit, but by crushing his desire to stay with them.

[Macchinario]

(05-18-2014 08:24 PM)polymath Wrote:  

The only force that will make him want to leave, is him.

You have to show him that the perils of staying will confine him to a life of misery. I would say that he needs three things:

1. Example. You can be a positive role model that shows him it's possible to fix things in his life.
2. Opportunity. He can't get out if he has nowhere to go, and he can't find a place to go if he can't pay for it.
3. Pressure. Part of leaving a bad situation is realizing how bad it is and wanting nothing more than to escape. Your brother needs to feel that his situation at home is untenable. This means your parents need to stop discouraging him and start treating him as a man.
   

Parents can be the worst force in a person's life because society usually gives them the right of way. Unfortunately, having your parents discourage your brother is a form of poison that can absolutely shred the motivation that would otherwise carry him out of there. I think this is because as children, we tend to over-value and over-trust parental input. The key is to get them to pressure your brother to stand on his own feet not by crushing his spirit, but by crushing his desire to stay with them.

I'll tell you: I still love them, but they're terrible. Most of the damage done took years to subside, and I still feel it.

Quote:

but by crushing his desire to stay with them.

Doing that, everytime. It feels like water drops trying to puncture a hole in a rock, sometimes.

[Dismal Operator]

Have you laid that out for him? As in told your brother the real reasons behind why your parents are acting that way (particularly your mother)? If you can get him to see right through your moms BS, he can see it for what it is and even use it as fuel, as opposed to being driven the negative emotions from it to possibly do something drastic to himself. Talk to him about how the small steps he is taking, the walking to reduce weight, etc are merely steps along the journey. it's talked about on these forums with respect to game/lifestyle, but get it into his head that he has to start viewing his situation as something that is bad, but that he can get out of one step at a time. It's going to be the positive mentality that gets him out of this, and to view every day as a victory as long as he did even the slightest thing to improve himself.

Get him to improve himself, and then once he shows some step by step improvement (starts working somewhere, gets in better shape etc,) you can offer to help him by moving in for a while to further boost his recovery. You can even sell it to your wife better by saying it's not a case of emergency, but just a short term helping hand while he uses the habits he built earlier to push on. Although if this situation is really as desperate as you make it out, and your brothers' life is at risk, I'd not be caring about the marriage.

[Macchinario]

(05-18-2014 08:32 PM)Dismal Operator Wrote:  

Have you laid that out for him? As in told your brother the real reasons behind why your parents are acting that way (particularly your mother)? If you can get him to see right through your moms BS, he can see it for what it is and even use it as fuel, as opposed to being driven the negative emotions from it to possibly do something drastic to himself.

I haven't thought of this, and I think you're right. Maybe a differnt approach laying out the family situation, instead of only his own, could help.

Quote:

Talk to him about how the small steps he is taking, the walking to reduce weight, etc are merely steps along the journey. it's talked about on these forums with respect to game/lifestyle, but get it into his head that he has to start viewing his situation as something that is bad, but that he can get out of one step at a time. It's going to be the positive mentality that gets him out of this, and to view every day as a victory as long as he did even the slightest thing to improve himself.

Yup, doing that. It's pretty hard to get him to talk about anything, and when he does it's barely a mumble. But I listen, and talk back. Recently I wrote an e-mail to him thinking it could be easier to communicate, but haven't heard back from him yet.

Quote:

Get him to improve himself, and then once he shows some step by step improvement (starts working somewhere, gets in better shape etc,) you can offer to help him by moving in for a while to further boost his recovery. You can even sell it to your wife better by saying it's not a case of emergency, but just a short term helping hand while he uses the habits he built earlier to push on. Although if this situation is really as desperate as you make it out, and your brothers' life is at risk, I'd not be caring about the marriage.

Yeah, I'm really looking for options and I see no other way around but push that issue, and deal with the fallout later.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

Can you and your brother maybe chip in together and hire a room somewhere for him to live in?

[Jackreacher]

You can't save your brother. He is 30 years old. Nobody is keeping him at home not even his parents(they can't). There is a part of him that is comfortable staying there so much so that he won't go. He needs a job that will give him enough money for 3 months rent at $400 a month, plus money for 3 months worth of food, money for transportation and a gym membership so he can start going 20-30 minutes 4-5 days a week. With that in place he should be able to get his life sorted out with what he wants without his parents influence and he will at least be in a stable, economic position. He needs a job so he can do all of this himself. No handouts, it's a psychological benefit to climb out of ones own mess by oneself. He's not hanging from a cliff, he's not stuck in the mud, he just refuses to do things to make his life better. You can't save those who will not save themselves. I too had to learn this first hand. Have him enlist in the army, 3 years might give him some discipline, money in his pocket and a career and you won't have to worry about him staying with your parents.

[Mick Gotham]

One thing you can do right away is invite your brother over a few times a week and get him involved with your family. Invite him over to help cook dinner, go to a movie, watch a sports game, help out with a project around the house, etc. If you make this a consistent rhythm then it will help you broach the subject of helping look for a job, move out, and improve his situation. Your wife shouldn't have a problem with this since he's not moving in, but make sure you enlist her help in what you're doing. If your brother sees that people care for him and elicit his buy in as a valued member of the family it will provide a stark contrast for you to address why he needs to move out and move on. I'm inclined to agree with Jackreacher, at the end of the day, it is up to him to take the initiative and turn his life around, but actively involving him in activities with your family will show you care, there's a better way to live and not just exist.

[BadWolf]

Tell him to take the TESOL and teach english abroad, the 3rd world cleans up entitlement issues quite nicely.

[soup]

I think he needs to get inspired to get off his fat ass and workout, lose weight, get good at game etc.

You got to sell the lifestyle to him.

Show him that it is possible to change, and that their are many benefits to having a healthier more engaged lifestyle.

[Samseau]

Can you and other your other successful brother pitch together enough money to get him his own apartment somewhere else? Even a cheap one for 800 a month?

Maybe just moving him away from his parents and forcing him to be independent will make him snap out of it.

[Vaun]

I have a brother who is an alcoholic and cocaine addict, and a petty crook as a result. So much so he can barely read or write now. I mean its been this way for over 20 years. I used to get upset about him frequently, to the point it affected my self image, that I came from a family with such a screw up. I would blame my parents for making him this way, etc. I wanted him to get better and change.

But that died within me a few years ago, and I can say I am totally happier. Now I feel no responsibility for him. I am not upset about it, I just have total ambivalence for him. I have moved on with my life and he is not a part of my life. And I am totally ok with that. Your brother ultimately has made his choice of what type of man he will be. At age 30, there is not much you or anyone else can do, other than him changing his own mind or your parents disowning him.

[heavy]

I'm a big proponent of psychology and talking people through things, so you could try that. A hypothetical "what would I do in your shoes"...probably what Vaun said, move on and lose any responsibility for him. It just sounds like if he comes around it'll be entirely of his own volition.


Because of this:

Quote:

It's pretty hard to get him to talk about anything, and when he does it's barely a mumble.

...there is one potential alternative. If you're willing to put your relationship with him or your parents at stake, your best bet would be to explode in a rant to him, about how much of a fuckin loser he is. I'm talking yelling, screaming, finger pointing, hands waving, almost like out of a movie. Throw in mother/father/family explanation but blaming him with the truth dripping in every statement.

...then forget about an inheritance.

[CrackerJack]

I suggest reading a book by Gabor Mate, In The Realm Of Hungry Ghosts.
He is a Vancouver's skid row physician who's mainly dealing with hard drug addicts. Don't let that discourage you from reading it even if your brother doesn't have drug and alcohol abuse problems. I would recommend it to anybody dealing with any form of "mind lock" of repetitive behaviour, whatever that may be, and an insight of how a brain's limbic system develops during childhood and it's effect on a decision making process later in life.

Since your brother is working hard on change "despite" your abusive parents daily influence over him, all he might need is a little nudge and a little support to 180 his life.

[Rutting Elephant]

Rate your brother on a scale of 1-10, 10 being this guy from
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-33393.html

[Bad Hussar]

A job abroad, or far away from home. The kind of job that includes accommodation and is in the the middle of nowhere. Planting trees in Washington, some sort of oil job in Alaska. Doesn't need to pay a lot, just get him out and able to save a little bit of money. Line cook at a work camp (if he can get a qualification for this), or dishwasher maybe.

[Cincinnatus]

(05-19-2014 11:24 AM)Rutting Elephant Wrote:  

Rate your brother on a scale of 1-10, 10 being this guy from
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-33393.html

[Macchinario]

Guys, thanks for the replies. Rutting, from 1 to 10 he's around 2, thank God. Heavy, that's way heavy for me too do. Guess I'm still soft when things are about family matters, eh?

I've talked to my middle brother, we decided to go ahead and lead him to the psychiatrist that was appointed, but I went with him. It was a relief to hear him talk, and he talked more than I heard him in the last six months. He does seems to suffer from depression, since he's in complete state of apathy, and hearing he say that he's just waiting to die wasn't an easy task.

We're on the fence about renting a place for him, since pulling them from home to live alone, without friends and suffering from depression doesn't sounds like a good idea. But you guys are right, in the end it's up to him to stand for himself. What we'll do now is to show ways, and continue to invite him to happenings, a game of pool, things like that. Baby steps, it seems.

CrackerJack, I'll definitely will read that book, thanks for the reference. Also, I'll begin to seek some way for him to work abroad, maybe in another country. I think that changing places would help immensely, and he would like the adventure. If you guys know anything like that, please let me know.

Thanks again.

[Vicious]

Professional help, NOW. Physiotherapists and psychiatric counsellors.

You do not need advice from a game forum. There are plenty of smart guys here that have their shit together and can probably tell you how they've slingshoted their lives from some sort of procedure/process/program. We have very few true experts on mental health however and far more laymen that sneer at established methods for psychiatric/psychological recovery. That might be a perfectly understandable scepticism to throw around between guys that have functioning lives but downright dangerous to fed to someone with true issues.

[Macchinario]

Vicious, thanks, and you are right. I failed to mention that the appointed we went was the first of a psychiatric treatment we started, and he started to take anti-depressants today. Hopefully things will get better, and I'm pleading my mother to start hers too. Everybody there needs help, and I will do what I can to help them.

[Tytalus]

ok. Keep us updated, I'm curious to know how this pans out later.

[Samseau]

I'm going to make the prediction that professional help will do more harm than good.

[Goldmund]

I have a younger brother who had a serious mental breakdown...ended up on the roof of a downtown building threatening to jump off for 8 hours...10 cop cars and the fire department were there.

After his 8 month stint in an institution he now has his own government subsidized apartment.

I tried talking to him when he was in the hospital but he was so fucking drugged up and helpless that we couldn't do much more than play a game of boggle or put together a jigsaw puzzle.

When he got out I tried to have him come down to NYC and go out to dinner every few weeks.

We SLOWLY began to talk about serious things, but he is in some serious denial...plus I was a crazy motherfucker growing up...always in trouble and causing my parents stress so his opinion of me is flawed. I will forever be the black sheep to him.

But its getting better, very very slowly. We can talk about issues with the parents, make fun of our mother and the strange rules she tried to impose. In fact, I think those are the best conversations we have. Calling out a well meaning but overbearing mother on her shit. This 'redpill' knowledge I can drop on him applies completely to our mother. He still doesn't agree with my view of women...but he's not ready for that either.

See what works with your brother, see which topics bring out the best and stick with those for now. Then move on to the heavier things.