[Ice]

(03-18-2014 02:07 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

^ in my experience. That is primarily false (yes there are always exceptions, Zuck as you used)

However, a guy making $1M per year is gonna get laid even if all he is doing is banging gold diggers.

The reason why it is generally false at that high level is you need leadership qualities which generally means charisma/charm = game.

Yeah but the questions is not whether that person is getting laid or not - the question is whether he has an alpha personality or not.

We all know that if you make 1M / year you will get laid - even if only in exchange for "gifts" ..

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 02:14 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

OP thinks alpha is being like Tyler Durden from fight club....

Not at all.

[WestCoast]

Well either way you can still have a alpha personality and work for a company that's pretty much said and done.

Meet anyone who works in sales. High end sales. They will be charming + charismatic.... Becuase they work... In sales.

Pretty much the case in point.

An accountant at who cares company in nowhere USA... Probably not.

I would tailor my personality to something healthy. The angry type person is probably the most beta of them all because he can't control his emotions at all. He gets laid but his life is going to be an embarrassment sooner than later.
----
Ice - read a book called the art of seduction. It covers what you're talking about. Personality types that get laid. If you read between the lines you realize some suck and others are actually good long-term.

[Ice]

(03-18-2014 02:20 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Well either way you can still have a alpha personality and work for a company that's pretty much said and done.

Meet anyone who works in sales. High end sales. They will be charming + charismatic.... Becuase they work... In sales.

Pretty much the case in point.

An accountant at who cares company in nowhere USA... Probably not.

I would tailor my personality to something healthy. The angry type person is probably the most beta of them all because he can't control his emotions at all. He gets laid but his life is going to be an embarrassment sooner than later.
----
Ice - read a book called the art of seduction. It covers what you're talking about. Personality types that get laid. If you read between the lines you realize some suck and others are actually good long-term.

Ok yeah, makes definitely sense what you're saying.

The advice about "jobs" vs. "career" is a good one. And yeah, I agree with tailoring one's personality to something healthy.

Also, I will check out the book the art of seduction - thanks for the tip.

[Seaver]

(03-18-2014 09:11 AM)Ice Wrote:  

I've been thinking about the whole issue of being alpha and having a career.

Increasingly, I'm coming to the conclusion that it's actually impossible to be successful in a classic employment setting as an alpha personality. If you show your alpha side at work, and others recognise that you're naturally dominant, they will try to shoot you down. You will run into all types of problems - co-workers will try to ostracise you and your superiors will feel threatened.

Of course, the solution to this is to start a business - then you can hire betas to work for you.

But I'm just bringing up this topic because in discussions about what constitutes an alpha, alphas are often portrayed as successful professionals - investment bankers or the like. But I'm just wondering how can one really be an alpha in such a rigid and regimented environment as a bank - or any professional environment really. In order to rise up the ranks, one has to fit in, follow a lot of rules and conform. Can a real alpha really do that?

What do you think - can a true alpha have a successful career as an employee?

IME That isn't really true. It is true for people who aren't as exceptional as they think they are though.

[UrbanNerd]

I already trolled an alpha thread last week so I will skip this week.

Still, the best personality is the one that works best for that PARTICULAR scenario.

[poutsara]

Confidence, decisive but planned actions, making alliances with people who can play on a team with you to win, dedication to what is important as you define it, not worrying about the present so much as the future, most importantly...keeping your cool and not getting emotional or worked up about small things. These are "alpha" characteristics that will serve well in your career and your game.

[Ice]

(03-19-2014 03:12 AM)poutsara Wrote:  

Confidence, decisive but planned actions, making alliances with people who can play on a team with you to win, dedication to what is important as you define it, not worrying about the present so much as the future, most importantly...keeping your cool and not getting emotional or worked up about small things. These are "alpha" characteristics that will serve well in your career and your game.

Sounds good.

[berserk]

Yeah, WestCoast laid it down nicely.

It doesn't matter if you're self employed or employed, what matters is quick upwards mobility and part in the loot. Are you one of the leading males of the pride who gets to feed first or do you passively wait for scraps. Yes, that is a very real analogy for the corporate world.

Do you quickly jostle into position for a management spot and a substantial pay raise/options/commission or do you think the 3-4% a year and job security is great. Do you knock on the door to the boss and ask for a raise and more responsibility? Does the company need you more than you need them?

In reality, you can be alpha as fawk in a corporate setting, but you do have to suffer office politics and incompetents. In almost all circumstances the corporate alpha will out earn the self employed at least until mid to late thirties at which point the self employed is either a broken man or made it good.

Both are difficult things to achieve, however the self employed route is riskier and therefore carries bigger rewards if succeeds.

[Ice]

(03-19-2014 07:54 AM)berserk Wrote:  

Yeah, WestCoast laid it down nicely.

It doesn't matter if you're self employed or employed, what matters is quick upwards mobility and part in the loot. Are you one of the leading males of the pride who gets to feed first or do you passively wait for scraps. Yes, that is a very real analogy for the corporate world.

Do you quickly jostle into position for a management spot and a substantial pay raise/options/commission or do you think the 3-4% a year and job security is great. Do you knock on the door to the boss and ask for a raise and more responsibility? Does the company need you more than you need them?

In reality, you can be alpha as fawk in a corporate setting, but you do have to suffer office politics and incompetents. In almost all circumstances the corporate alpha will out earn the self employed at least until mid to late thirties at which point the self employed is either a broken man or made it good.

Both are difficult things to achieve, however the self employed route is riskier and therefore carries bigger rewards if succeeds.

Yeah my focus is not necessarily on making as much money as possible - if that was the case, then rising up the ranks in a corporate setting would make most sense, I think. As you said, in most cases one can earn more that way.

But my focus is more on doing interesting work, being in an environment where I don't have to deny my personality, and where I am able to make a name for myself for my skill and knowledge.

So I'm not primarily thinking about where I can earn most.

[The Beast1]

(03-18-2014 09:11 AM)Ice Wrote:  

What do you think - can a true alpha have a successful career as an employee?

You're missing the point.

Being "alpha" is about frame control and handling yourself. I work in an office environment and it is stupid easy to be dominant and get people to do what I want.

It sounds like you're getting shit tested. Shit tests can be good. It means people are acknowledging your "alphaness". However, too much means that your attitude isn't congruent with your body language.

You can be alpha anywhere anytime. Alpha is about looking at yourself critically and attempting to become self actualized into the individual you believe is you at 100%. What this means for individuals can be anything since not everyone wants to become a baller in entertainment or wall street. Do what works best for you and overcome your own mental handicaps. Basically what this forum is all about.

What do you need to do to become 100% actualized? Do this, and you will join the ranks of the cool alphas who are wall street ballers, entertainers, and the like. Being alpha is a club of elite individuals that have a variety of different skills.

[Ice]

(03-19-2014 11:40 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

(03-18-2014 09:11 AM)Ice Wrote:  

What do you think - can a true alpha have a successful career as an employee?

You're missing the point.

Being "alpha" is about frame control and handling yourself. I work in an office environment and it is stupid easy to be dominant and get people to do what I want.

It sounds like you're getting shit tested. Shit tests can be good. It means people are acknowledging your "alphaness". However, too much means that your attitude isn't congruent with your body language.

You can be alpha anywhere anytime. Alpha is about looking at yourself critically and attempting to become self actualized into the individual you believe is you at 100%. What this means for individuals can be anything since not everyone wants to become a baller in entertainment or wall street. Do what works best for you and overcome your own mental handicaps. Basically what this forum is all about.

What do you need to do to become 100% actualized? Do this, and you will join the ranks of the cool alphas who are wall street ballers, entertainers, and the like. Being alpha is a club of elite individuals that have a variety of different skills.

yeah definitely, I am working on my self-actualization. Made some mistakes in the past that that's part of the process.

It's not really about shit tests in the workplace, though - it just depends on the setting, there are certain work environments that allow you to express your personality and some are rather restricted. It's mostly the "job" type environments that are shitty though.

[tbone46]

If you have a great business idea then go ahead, start a business, be the next mark zuckerberg, and you can spend all day bossing people around and being "alpha". But if not you generally have to pay your dues to learn a business from someone else. I currently have a job that is performance based, gives me location independence, and is very lucrative...but for the first 5-7 years of my career i was literally a bitch at work. But i was a bitch to very talented people, made decent money, and the experience was invaluable. If you are so obsessed with being "alpha" that you can never recognize someone else that is talented that you can learn from then you are cutting off most of the avenues in life to make money. Capitalism thrives on personal exchanges like this...ie i will add value for someone else at somewhat modest pay and in return get the chance to learn from them and make more money down the road. There is nothing "beta" about making mutually beneficial exchanges or respecting other people who are worthy of respect...and this whole obsession with the term alpha and beta is quite frankly absurd.

[berserk]

It's also a question of how the OP perceives 'alpha' behavior' in the workplace. Some workplaces are much more open to traditional male bullshitting and such, while others are heavily feminized.

At the top of my head, white collar professions with machismo: trading floor in a bank, investment banking, marketing (though not all), sales.

Backoffice, admin, human resource, legal is full of women and stuck up people.

[Ice]

(03-20-2014 02:12 AM)tbone46 Wrote:  

If you have a great business idea then go ahead, start a business, be the next mark zuckerberg, and you can spend all day bossing people around and being "alpha". But if not you generally have to pay your dues to learn a business from someone else. I currently have a job that is performance based, gives me location independence, and is very lucrative...but for the first 5-7 years of my career i was literally a bitch at work. But i was a bitch to very talented people, made decent money, and the experience was invaluable. If you are so obsessed with being "alpha" that you can never recognize someone else that is talented that you can learn from then you are cutting off most of the avenues in life to make money. Capitalism thrives on personal exchanges like this...ie i will add value for someone else at somewhat modest pay and in return get the chance to learn from them and make more money down the road. There is nothing "beta" about making mutually beneficial exchanges or respecting other people who are worthy of respect...and this whole obsession with the term alpha and beta is quite frankly absurd.

Yeah I'm in the process of starting a business. But Probably I will need to get a job first though in order to be able to get it off the ground for money reasons. Been working independently on and off for the last years. But I am just realising hat I have to change my offerings. So I am working on updating my skills.

I don't have a problem learning from other people. I know some people who are very accomplished and I definitely give them respect. It's mostly when you work with bimbos and losers when the problems start. Unfortunately I was such a situation in the past.

You know how it is, most people are depressed and insecure and feel stuck in their life - working with these people is toxic. Those are exactly the people who will try to cut you down and sabotage you. People who are talented and accomplished are rarely the problem.

But yeah, good for you that you have a job that is very lucrative and gives you location independence.

[Ice]

(03-20-2014 09:48 AM)berserk Wrote:  

It's also a question of how the OP perceives 'alpha' behavior' in the workplace. Some workplaces are much more open to traditional male bullshitting and such, while others are heavily feminized.

At the top of my head, white collar professions with machismo: trading floor in a bank, investment banking, marketing (though not all), sales.

Backoffice, admin, human resource, legal is full of women and stuck up people.

Yeah that is true. I worked in sales some time ago and it was a pretty "macho" environment. One time when we went out to catch some drinks after work my boss pulled out his dick in a bar and wiggled it around in front of a female co-worker's face. That was pretty funny. But that was in Europe - I think that would be impossible in the US - that guy would probably be in jail now.

But yeah anyway, even though the environment was cool, I think sales is not a career that I would want to pursue. But I know that everyone who is self-employed or runs a business is in sales at the end of the day.

[Seaver]

(03-20-2014 04:09 PM)Ice Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:12 AM)tbone46 Wrote:  

If you have a great business idea then go ahead, start a business, be the next mark zuckerberg, and you can spend all day bossing people around and being "alpha". But if not you generally have to pay your dues to learn a business from someone else. I currently have a job that is performance based, gives me location independence, and is very lucrative...but for the first 5-7 years of my career i was literally a bitch at work. But i was a bitch to very talented people, made decent money, and the experience was invaluable. If you are so obsessed with being "alpha" that you can never recognize someone else that is talented that you can learn from then you are cutting off most of the avenues in life to make money. Capitalism thrives on personal exchanges like this...ie i will add value for someone else at somewhat modest pay and in return get the chance to learn from them and make more money down the road. There is nothing "beta" about making mutually beneficial exchanges or respecting other people who are worthy of respect...and this whole obsession with the term alpha and beta is quite frankly absurd.

Yeah I'm in the process of starting a business. But Probably I will need to get a job first though in order to be able to get it off the ground for money reasons. Been working independently on and off for the last years. But I am just realising hat I have to change my offerings. So I am working on updating my skills.

I don't have a problem learning from other people. I know some people who are very accomplished and I definitely give them respect. It's mostly when you work with bimbos and losers when the problems start. Unfortunately I was such a situation in the past.

You know how it is, most people are depressed and insecure and feel stuck in their life - working with these people is toxic. Those are exactly the people who will try to cut you down and sabotage you. People who are talented and accomplished are rarely the problem.

But yeah, good for you that you have a job that is very lucrative and gives you location independence.

Have you considered that a true alpha would be a leader and help these people turn that around? Then you create disciples.

Sounds to me like maybe you have a higher opinion of yourself than the reality. I don't mean that as an insult either, just that people tend to be a bit egocentric and not realize it.

[bjerauld]

I'm amazed at the difference between type A personalities and being "alpha" in their own life. I'm a Fire medic and I work with men that have frame and confidence when shit hits the fan at work but fold like origami in front of their wives. I think the alpha work attitude can be turned on and off like a switch. . Maybe it can be used to an advantage but beware of "ALPHA" outward appearance in others. I guess my advice through experience is don't try to compensate for being beta at home by being excessively alpha in your career environment.

[Ice]

(03-20-2014 08:22 PM)Seaver Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:09 PM)Ice Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:12 AM)tbone46 Wrote:  

If you have a great business idea then go ahead, start a business, be the next mark zuckerberg, and you can spend all day bossing people around and being "alpha". But if not you generally have to pay your dues to learn a business from someone else. I currently have a job that is performance based, gives me location independence, and is very lucrative...but for the first 5-7 years of my career i was literally a bitch at work. But i was a bitch to very talented people, made decent money, and the experience was invaluable. If you are so obsessed with being "alpha" that you can never recognize someone else that is talented that you can learn from then you are cutting off most of the avenues in life to make money. Capitalism thrives on personal exchanges like this...ie i will add value for someone else at somewhat modest pay and in return get the chance to learn from them and make more money down the road. There is nothing "beta" about making mutually beneficial exchanges or respecting other people who are worthy of respect...and this whole obsession with the term alpha and beta is quite frankly absurd.

Yeah I'm in the process of starting a business. But Probably I will need to get a job first though in order to be able to get it off the ground for money reasons. Been working independently on and off for the last years. But I am just realising hat I have to change my offerings. So I am working on updating my skills.

I don't have a problem learning from other people. I know some people who are very accomplished and I definitely give them respect. It's mostly when you work with bimbos and losers when the problems start. Unfortunately I was such a situation in the past.

You know how it is, most people are depressed and insecure and feel stuck in their life - working with these people is toxic. Those are exactly the people who will try to cut you down and sabotage you. People who are talented and accomplished are rarely the problem.

But yeah, good for you that you have a job that is very lucrative and gives you location independence.

Have you considered that a true alpha would be a leader and help these people turn that around? Then you create disciples.

Sounds to me like maybe you have a higher opinion of yourself than the reality. I don't mean that as an insult either, just that people tend to be a bit egocentric and not realize it.

Well maybe I am egocentric - I don' know - but probably not more than most people. I don't even have that high of an option of myself though, I just take action to change things in my life that I am not happy with.

You know how it is, most people complain and complain, but won't take action. You can try to help them, but at the end of the day, in order to succeed, one has to have the will and initiative to change out of one's own volition.

[Ice]

(03-20-2014 10:59 PM)bjerauld Wrote:  

I'm amazed at the difference between type A personalities and being "alpha" in their own life. I'm a Fire medic and I work with men that have frame and confidence when shit hits the fan at work but fold like origami in front of their wives. I think the alpha work attitude can be turned on and off like a switch. . Maybe it can be used to an advantage but beware of "ALPHA" outward appearance in others. I guess my advice through experience is don't try to compensate for being beta at home by being excessively alpha in your career environment.

Yeah definitely, I already mentioned above that I met many alleged "alpha thugs" who in reality were actually pretty beta, especially when interacting with women.

I don't know if your advice is directed at me, but in that case I can assure you that there is no danger at all of me being beta "at home" or with regards to women.

[Seaver]

(03-21-2014 09:11 AM)Ice Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 08:22 PM)Seaver Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:09 PM)Ice Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:12 AM)tbone46 Wrote:  

If you have a great business idea then go ahead, start a business, be the next mark zuckerberg, and you can spend all day bossing people around and being "alpha". But if not you generally have to pay your dues to learn a business from someone else. I currently have a job that is performance based, gives me location independence, and is very lucrative...but for the first 5-7 years of my career i was literally a bitch at work. But i was a bitch to very talented people, made decent money, and the experience was invaluable. If you are so obsessed with being "alpha" that you can never recognize someone else that is talented that you can learn from then you are cutting off most of the avenues in life to make money. Capitalism thrives on personal exchanges like this...ie i will add value for someone else at somewhat modest pay and in return get the chance to learn from them and make more money down the road. There is nothing "beta" about making mutually beneficial exchanges or respecting other people who are worthy of respect...and this whole obsession with the term alpha and beta is quite frankly absurd.

Yeah I'm in the process of starting a business. But Probably I will need to get a job first though in order to be able to get it off the ground for money reasons. Been working independently on and off for the last years. But I am just realising hat I have to change my offerings. So I am working on updating my skills.

I don't have a problem learning from other people. I know some people who are very accomplished and I definitely give them respect. It's mostly when you work with bimbos and losers when the problems start. Unfortunately I was such a situation in the past.

You know how it is, most people are depressed and insecure and feel stuck in their life - working with these people is toxic. Those are exactly the people who will try to cut you down and sabotage you. People who are talented and accomplished are rarely the problem.

But yeah, good for you that you have a job that is very lucrative and gives you location independence.

Have you considered that a true alpha would be a leader and help these people turn that around? Then you create disciples.

Sounds to me like maybe you have a higher opinion of yourself than the reality. I don't mean that as an insult either, just that people tend to be a bit egocentric and not realize it.

Well maybe I am egocentric - I don' know - but probably not more than most people. I don't even have that high of an option of myself though, I just take action to change things in my life that I am not happy with.

You know how it is, most people complain and complain, but won't take action. You can try to help them, but at the end of the day, in order to succeed, one has to have the will and initiative to change out of one's own volition.

correct, and a true alpha can motivate those people to do that.

That is a big part of success in the corporate world, so if you can't succeed there, you most likely aren't alpha.

I would say that not only can an alpha succeed in the corporate world, they are more likely to do so.

[Ice]

(03-21-2014 10:09 AM)Seaver Wrote:  

(03-21-2014 09:11 AM)Ice Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 08:22 PM)Seaver Wrote:  

[quote] (03-20-2014 04:09 PM)Ice Wrote:  

You know how it is, most people are depressed and insecure and feel stuck in their life - working with these people is toxic. Those are exactly the people who will try to cut you down and sabotage you. People who are talented and accomplished are rarely the problem.

But yeah, good for you that you have a job that is very lucrative and gives you location independence.

Have you considered that a true alpha would be a leader and help these people turn that around? Then you create disciples.

Sounds to me like maybe you have a higher opinion of yourself than the reality. I don't mean that as an insult either, just that people tend to be a bit egocentric and not realize it.

Well maybe I am egocentric - I don' know - but probably not more than most people. I don't even have that high of an option of myself though, I just take action to change things in my life that I am not happy with.

You know how it is, most people complain and complain, but won't take action. You can try to help them, but at the end of the day, in order to succeed, one has to have the will and initiative to change out of one's own volition.

correct, and a true alpha can motivate those people to do that.

That is a big part of success in the corporate world, so if you can't succeed there, you most likely aren't alpha.

I would say that not only can an alpha succeed in the corporate world, they are more likely to do so.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily define success in the corporate world as the litmus test for being alpha ..

But again, I think it depends on the specific environment. I have been in professional environments where it was pretty obvious that the guys(s) running the company just tried to gather weak-willed individuals around themselves so that they can feel superior and powerful. But needless to say that companies like that tend to not be very successful.

But not all companies are like that, of course.

[jamaicabound]

I think the answer to this question depends upon how you define alpha. Some people seem to think it's the toughest, strongest biggest most badass guy in the room, others think its the guy with confidence who doen't give a fuck about anything. I read an interesting blog the other week, wish I could find it, I believe it was written by some guy who writes a blog about teaching in Cambodia if I remember correctly.

Anyhow he kinda discussed the whole alpha thing. I don't necessarily think he's right but was a diff perspective. Also, I guess it depends on whether you wanna use alpha as an anlogy or really compare literally to how it is in the wild.

Anyhow, he talks about how in the wild the Alpha is the King so to speak, the beta is actually second in line to the alpha, should he die beta becomes alpha, the omeggas are the followers so where as we often say alpha is cool behavior beta is pussy shit, its actually omegas which are the pussy shit, Betas aren't the top dog but are next in line to the throne.

Anyhow, he also goes on to say in the primate world the alpha isn't always the biggest or strongest but teh most manipulative, the one who can play politics and get the big guys on his side to enforce his rule. Thought that was an interesting take on the whole alpha thing.

[Bushido]

Westcoast is dropping gold all over this thread.

Alpha is contextual. As I see it, most guys find their "thing" at a young age and do that at the expense of other areas - the jocks stick to sports and the nerds stick to the books. This is probably instinctual as our ancestors tended to focus on what they excelled at to survive. There is no point being a warrior if you are weak or an accountant if you are illiterate.

But nowadays you don't need to choose. I'd much rather be an all-rounder. Make money, get in great shape, learn to fight, dress well, have social skills, speak half a dozen languages. I want to be as alpha as I can in all of these areas. This puts me ahead of 90% of the male population.

Obviously it is good to know your strengths but you don't want to rely on any one thing. Rather than relying on your straight right, you want to attack life with a mix of blows.

[Ice]

(03-21-2014 12:00 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

I think the answer to this question depends upon how you define alpha. Some people seem to think it's the toughest, strongest biggest most badass guy in the room, others think its the guy with confidence who doen't give a fuck about anything. I read an interesting blog the other week, wish I could find it, I believe it was written by some guy who writes a blog about teaching in Cambodia if I remember correctly.

Anyhow he kinda discussed the whole alpha thing. I don't necessarily think he's right but was a diff perspective. Also, I guess it depends on whether you wanna use alpha as an anlogy or really compare literally to how it is in the wild.

Anyhow, he talks about how in the wild the Alpha is the King so to speak, the beta is actually second in line to the alpha, should he die beta becomes alpha, the omeggas are the followers so where as we often say alpha is cool behavior beta is pussy shit, its actually omegas which are the pussy shit, Betas aren't the top dog but are next in line to the throne.

Anyhow, he also goes on to say in the primate world the alpha isn't always the biggest or strongest but teh most manipulative, the one who can play politics and get the big guys on his side to enforce his rule. Thought that was an interesting take on the whole alpha thing.

Yeah, definitely, that's how I see it too - alpha is not necessarily the biggest or strongest, but the most manipulative. The one who can live life on his own terms, who is independent, and achieves to manipulate others to help him reach his goals.

Oftentimes when people think of alphas they think of tough marines or the like, but I don't see it that way - at the end, marines are puppets following orders and will die for someone else's cause - that cannot be alpha I think.

But as was mentioned above, alpha is a matter of gradation, so it's not black and white.

Alpha also means a certain personality trait - being able to dominate social situations just on the strength of one's frame and intellect, without relying on status markers such as muscles or money or a big car etc. But that also falls under the umbrella of manipulation.