[Walter White]

Not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, Incognito is clearly an a-hole.On the other hand, the stuff he and others said, as graphic as it is, isn't any worse than most of us heard in high school locker rooms. "Yo mama" and "your sister" jokes. Even the racial jokes were clearly just that...jokes - Incognito's biggest defenders were the other black guys on the team.

I kind of resent how this whole millenial generational has been raised to be so butt-hurt over everything. Is it because it is the first generation of men to be raised, in significant part, by single moms?

Any way you cut it, we're becoming a nation of florists...

The full report is here:
http://63bba9dfdf9675bf3f10-68be460ce43d...Report.pdf

[samsamsam]

I posted it in the NFL thread.

Maybe I disagree with you here. There is hazing and that is fine, happens everywhere, but it seems icognito took it to a new level. Haze all you want but leave my family out of it.

(02-14-2014 01:05 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

The report came out on the Martin/Icognito thing.

http://www.nfldolphinsreport.com/

Page 9 starts the Executive Summary.

A bit of the document quoted below. The fine book mentioned was a book that logged infractions/penalties. I pasted a copy of a relevant page of the fine book.

Quote:

In reaching this conclusion, we were significantly influenced by multiple
factors, including the flagrantly inappropriate treatment of the Assistant Trainer and Player A, which, independent of Martin’s claims, reflected a pattern of harassment.

Moreover, shortly after Martin left the team, Incognito made a number of telling entries in a notebook used to keep track of “fines” the offensive linemen imposed on each other in their “kangaroo court” (typically for trivial infractions such as arriving late to
meetings). Incognito recorded a $200 fine against himself for “breaking Jmart,” awarded another lineman who had been verbally taunted a $250 bonus for “not cracking first,” and wrote down a number of penalties against Martin for acting like a “pussy.” The evidence
shows, and Incognito did not dispute, that “breaking Jmart” meant causing Martin to have an emotional reaction in response to taunting. Approximately one week after Martin left the team, on November 3, 2013, Incognito wrote nearly identical text messages to
Pouncey and another lineman: “They’re going to suspend me Please destroy the fine book first thing in the morning.”

We view Incognito’s entries in the fine book about “breaking Jmart” and his attempt to destroy the fine book—which was unsuccessful—as evidence demonstrating his awareness that he had engaged in improper conduct toward Martin.

[Dantes]

(02-14-2014 03:11 PM)Walter White Wrote:  

Not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, Incognito is clearly an a-hole.On the other hand, the stuff he and others said, as graphic as it is, isn't any worse than most of us heard in high school locker rooms. "Yo mama" and "your sister" jokes. Even the racial jokes were clearly just that...jokes - Incognito's biggest defenders were the other black guys on the team.

I kind of resent how this whole millenial generational has been raised to be so butt-hurt over everything. Is it because it is the first generation of men to be raised, in significant part, by single moms?

Any way you cut it, we're becoming a nation of florists...

The full report is here:
http://63bba9dfdf9675bf3f10-68be460ce43d...Report.pdf

I disagree as well. There was an independent investigation finding that Incognito was at fault with evidence to support. This kind of behavior would never fly in any other work setting. These athletes should be held to the same standard that other professionals are held to. The race of his defenders is irrelevant. The treatment of a teammate and colleague in this manner in untenable and it is just he was released.

[samsamsam]

The guy was a crazy, he went after the assistant trainer and made racial remarks to him to also. Fine if it was true hazing, you keep it among your teammates. This guy was a trainer, not sure when he played for Dolphins.

The guy is just a nut.

Quote:

We found that the Assistant Trainer, who was born in Japan, was the target of frequent and persistent harassment, including insults relating to his race and national origin. Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey admitted that they directed racially derogatory words toward him, including “Jap” and “Chinaman.” At times, according to Martin, they referred to the Assistant Trainer as a “dirty communist” or a “North Korean,” made demands such as “give me some water you fucking chink,” spoke to him in a phony, mocking Asian accent, including asking for “rubby rubby sucky sucky,” and called his mother a “rub and tug masseuse.” Martin and others informed us that Incognito and Jerry taunted the Assistant Trainer with jokes about having sex with his girlfriend. Incognito admitted that these types of comments were made to the Assistant Trainer.

On December 7, 2012, the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey donned traditional Japanese headbands that featured a rising sun emblem (which the Assistant Trainer had given them) and jokingly threatened to harm the Assistant Trainer physically in retaliation for the Pearl Harbor attack. According to Martin, the Assistant Trainer confided in him that he was upset about the Pearl Harbor comments, finding them derogatory toward his heritage.

[Walter White]

Incognito is clearly a tool. But his actual insults were stuff i've heard in school locker rooms. I would think the NFL, where they are all getting richly paid, would expect a level of mental toughness. How many of us grew up with our parents telling us "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me", whenever the other kids made fun of us? Shouldn't a 6'5", 312 lb professional athlete be focused on how the other team will try to beat him next week, and completely tune out the "yo mama so ugly" jokes?

[samsamsam]

I am all for hazing to have a little fun with one another, guys on this board do it, it is just what guys do. But the jokes weren't your mama jokes, they were talking about fucking sister and mother and other nonsense.

Did you read the report? It is long, but try the executive summary at least.

From the Executive Summary

Quote:

When we interviewed him, Martin said he was most offended by persistent vulgar references to members of his family, with whom he is close. According to Martin, these were not harmless one-off “yo mama” jokes, but cutting comments delivered with the intention to demean. The evidence supports a finding that Incognito, Jerry and
Pouncey repeatedly and persistently made graphic, sexually explicit comments about Martin’s sister, a medical student whom they had never met. Four fairly typical examples of the types of insults made orally, according to Martin, are:
- We are going to run train on your sister. She loves me. I’m going to
fuck her without a condom and cum in her cunt.
- Hey, Jmart’s sister is in town. Get the plastic sheets ready, she’s a
squirter.
- I’m going to bang the shit out of her and spit on her and treat her like shit.
- Hear your sister has a wolf-puss. A fat, hairy pussy.

Although Martin’s core complaints primarily relate to oral statements,
crude references to his sister also appeared in a handful of text messages, including one that Incognito sent to Martin and other offensive linemen:

I flew jmarts sister into Indy. My dick is dry and needs
some of her healing squirt juices2

Martin said that he was particularly offended by these crude comments about his sister and that his transparent discomfort only increased the frequency and intensity of the insults. Martin also recalled that the comments about his sister were sometimes accompanied by obscene physical gestures. For example, he claimed that on the practice field, Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey would call his sister a “squirter” and then squirt water onto the field from their water bottles, and that while engaged in certain warm-up stretching exercises, they would simulate having sex with his sister. The evidence confirmed these allegations.

Making matters worse, from Martin’s perspective, the disparagement of his sister sometimes occurred in front of other players, in the showers or on the team airplane, in what he believed to be an effort to humiliate him. After Martin’s mother attended a team event in April 2013, Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey began mocking Martin
with similar sexually explicit jeers about her, too. For example, Martin claimed that Jerry at one point said he wanted to have sex with Martin’s sister and his mother at the same time.

[Walter White]

(02-14-2014 03:46 PM)Doctordude Wrote:  

This kind of behavior would never fly in any other work setting. These athletes should be held to the same standard that other professionals are held to.

Smashing your oppenent to the ground wouldn't be tolerated in any other work setting either. And that's just the thing - it isn't any other work setting. It's an NFL locker room. I mean, Floyd Mayweather punches people in the face at his "place of business" and gets paid $$$$ for it. You and i would go to jail. And guys in the military SHOOT people as part of their jobs and get a medal for it - they'd lock you away and throw away the key if you did that. There are different standards for different workplaces, and in a testosterone-laiden place like the military or the NFL, you signal to your buddies that you are able to support them when they need you by demonstrating you are STRONG - physically, and emotionally.

Arguably, the stuff he said to the assistant trainer is the most damning thing of all, because the guy isn't a huge, strong independently wealthy athlete. In the same way, if he used that kind of language in the front office in front of the secretaries, sure, he'd be totally out of line.

I think the finding should have been that Incognito is a jerk, and a divisive force, but that the nature of the job is such that Martin knew what he was signing up for. Don't want to be a professional athlete b/c the other guys might call you names? There is a stadium full of people that would trade places with you, Jon.

[Walter White]

(02-14-2014 03:51 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

Did you read the report? It is long, but try the executive summary at least.

Yes, read the whole thing.

[scorpion]

Martin is a bitch, and Icognito is a dick. But this is just locker room culture. It only came to light because Martin was particularly sensitive and Incognito was particularly brazen and offensive with his hazing.

The media has been trying to add a racial element to the story, as well, which is absurd, since Incognito was and still is supported by his black teammates, most of whom regard Martin with disdain for being a bitch who couldn't handle his own business.

Just another political correctness media show trial.

[Baldwin81]

1. When you rise up and handle it, people will respect you.

2. If you walk away because you can't take it, but stay quiet - nobody will know.

Point 1 trumps point 2, but at least point 2 isn't a rat.

If you walk away and taddle - even if "workplace harrassment code" is on your side - people aren't going to have any real respect. The people who pity you will be those who are too scared to rise up and would likely taddle in lieu of walking away quietly.

Different rules apply for women and (of course) children. As a man you're expected to handle this stuff on your own... therein lies the truth that media's trying so hard to distort.

[dads]

This is a great example of what happens when you don't stand up for yourself. When I was a freshman in high school, the older guys on the Varsity team (I wasn't on the Varsity, our practices were scheduled in a way where we ended up in the locker room at the same time occasionally) would call me a fag, tell me to look over and swing their dicks around, but me in bear hugs and all that crap. Every single time, I punched back, called them names back, and the works, and it didn't really extend past a week. It's about setting a precedent. You don't get this crap if you don't ask for it, and (by his own admission) he's always been a people pleaser and a guy that doesn't like fighting back. If I was someone who didn't like working in stressful situations, I probably wouldn't work in Wall Street. I'd take my Stanford degree, make a media stir by NOT going into the NFL and live my life doing another field. Richie Incognito is a football player, Jonathan Martin isn't.

[BLarsen]

The perfect storm...

1)Incognito is obviously an asshole who took things too far and was "encouraged" to ramp up his behavior when Martin didn't stand up for himself.

2)Martin is a self-confessed pussy and people-pleaser who admittedly never stood up for himself going back to middle school.

When an asshole who doesn't know when to stop meets a pussy who doesn't know how to tell people how to stop...bad things happen. This could have turned out pretty poorly. Martin stuffed his feelings down inside for a few years and I know from personal experience that when those feelings erupt (and they do) violence can occur. Incognito is lucky that Martin had the good sense not to bring a weapon in the locker room and fuck him up with it.

[polymath]

Anywhere you go, employing assholes is counterproductive.

A talented leader does his best, consistently, without needing to break down other people unless it is to immediately build them back up better. And even that should come with a mutual understanding, like boot camp.

Other people are your biggest assets as a leader. It's important to help them develop, not to harm them in the name of "locker-room culture." There's a difference between ribbing someone, and pulverizing him verbally.

Even if Martin is weak for not being able to handle it, it's on the shoulders of Incognito for pushing Martin where it stung.

[WanderingSoul]

Incognito is a fucking punk, and Martin is a coward. Fuck em both.

[El Rey]

Martin comes out looking like an even bigger bitch ass pussy than before. After reading his dad's message to him, you see where he got that from. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

All I know is this: I would rather have a guy like Incognito protecting my team's quarterback, than a guy like Martin.

[assman]

(02-14-2014 05:22 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Martin is a bitch, and Icognito is a dick. But this is just locker room culture. It only came to light because Martin was particularly sensitive and Incognito was particularly brazen and offensive with his hazing.

The media has been trying to add a racial element to the story, as well, which is absurd, since Incognito was and still is supported by his black teammates, most of whom regard Martin with disdain for being a bitch who couldn't handle his own business.

Just another political correctness media show trial.

Nailed it. There is no racial angle to the story, no matter how desperate the media is for one.

Martin is a dripping wet vagina, and I'd be shocked if any other team puts this bitch on their roster.

Butthurt has become a cause for action in many environments, and now apparently, even pro football locker rooms. The pussification of America is in full stroke.

[Walter White]

(02-15-2014 11:33 PM)assman Wrote:  

Butthurt has become a cause for action in many environments, and now apparently, even pro football locker rooms. The pussification of America is in full stroke.

Damn straight. When the chapter is written on the millennial generation, the title will be "Butthurt"...

[KorbenDallas]

I'm a millennial. We got a lot more pussies than other generations, but I would also argue a lot more people completely psychopathic than other generations. Just a lot of crazies in general. Not a lot of winners amongst us, but the ones who make it (on their own I might at, inheriting a company is something anyone can do) are stone cold killers at whatever they've made it at. Going to be a very different America in 20 years than the 90's. I think political correctness is going to go out the window if things get real tough and lots of delusional people are going to get a rude awakening.

[assman]

(02-16-2014 11:56 AM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  

I'm a millennial. We got a lot more pussies than other generations, but I would also argue a lot more people completely psychopathic than other generations.

Agreed. And no doubt the record high percentage of children raised by single mothers is a contributing factor.

[Kickb]

You guys have to read this article! This Incognito dude anf his coach are some funny mother fuckers

http://deadspin.com/the-worst-stuff-from...1522846626



"Hey everbody, break ouy the plastic sheets. JMarts sister is in town and shes a squirter"

"Im going to bang the shit out of your sister and spit on her and treat her like shit!"

The 2012 christmas party story had me rolling. This dude's alter ego is called Tornado and on that night Martin got caught up in it!

Heres a video of Incognito in Tornado form

"FUCK COMPTON NIGGA!"

what a nutcase!

[assman]

^^^ If I'm a QB, I'd MUCH rather have that dude protecting me from equally crazed defensive ends than a guy who gets butthurt from some jokes about his sister (whom the other guys have never met, so it's totally not about her, but about busting the guy's balls).

[Hencredible Casanova]

I actually know Jonathan Martin's cousin. He went to grad school with an ex-gf of mine.

First of all, people have no idea how unique that man is for an NFL player. His black teammates actually have way more in common with Incognito than they do with Martin. This is one of those rare situations where class trumps race.

Consider the profile of the "average" NFL player, regardless of race. Guy grows up going to public schools, standout athlete, gets recruited by some state school with a reputable football program, gets drafted into the league. Nothing really remarkable about his family, save for maybe another athletic family member give or take.

This is nothing like the background of Jonathan Martin.

JM comes from one of the most prominent African-American families in the US. He has great grandparents that were among the first black graduates of Harvard University, in the early 1900s, a time when few Americans - let alone African-Americans - received a college education. Multiple generations of his family attended Ivy League schools. This is not even common among white Ivy League graduates.

He has a direct pipeline to the White House, Wall Street, you name it. Members of his family are part of the elite and powerful.

Jonathan Martin never attended a public school. His elementary school was one of the top three in the LA area, and for high school, he attended the world-renowned Harvard-Westlake prep school. This school is one of the most well-known feeder schools to the Ivy League. Its educated countless members of the top 1%, including royalty from foreign countries. Its one of a handful of American schools that is part of the G20 (an exclusive association of exceptional secondary schools around the world). He's never really socialized with people remotely like Incognito or the vast majority of NFL players for that matter.

For university, he attended Stanford (turning down Harvard because Stanford is basically the same caliber academically albeit with a reputable football program).

With his rarefied background, Martin could have easily went into Wall Street or wrote his own ticket. He chose the NFL because he loved the game, but he has never been around the type of guys who play in the NFL. Not even limited contact.

This is different from guys like Richard Sherman, who also attended Stanford, but grew up in COMPTON and attended regular public schools there. So he's used to riff-raff.

Martin simply has nothing in common with most of the guys who play in the league except that he happens to be black, but in name only.

He comes from an honorable family unlike most Americans, so insults to his sister and the like cut much more deeply than it would for most guys. For him, guys in the NFL are practically the dregs of society. That's why it's no big deal for him to call it quits and move on with his life. There's much more in store for him elsewhere whenever he wants it.

[assman]

(02-16-2014 08:31 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

This is different from guys like Richard Sherman, who also attended Stanford, but grew up in COMPTON and attended regular public schools there. So he's used to riff-raff.

Wouldn't 4 years of college football (assuming he was on the team/in the locker room all 4 years) acclimatize him to this?

I wonder if his family connections had something to do with how big a deal this became for the NFL (in addition to other factors like how the media was desperate for a race story, when as you point out, this was more a class story)?

[Hencredible Casanova]

(02-16-2014 09:47 PM)assman Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 08:31 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

This is different from guys like Richard Sherman, who also attended Stanford, but grew up in COMPTON and attended regular public schools there. So he's used to riff-raff.

Wouldn't 4 years of college football (assuming he was on the team/in the locker room all 4 years) acclimatize him to this?

Elite schools like Stanford and Duke (basketball) recruit very carefully. They look at character, academic success, and athletic talent. Their recruits have high gpas, a clean background, good families, and are generally class acts. It's a completely different paradigm from how state schools recruit. Therefore, the locker rooms and campus culture in those institutions are much different as well.

[Walter White]

(02-16-2014 10:09 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 09:47 PM)assman Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 08:31 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

This is different from guys like Richard Sherman, who also attended Stanford, but grew up in COMPTON and attended regular public schools there. So he's used to riff-raff.

Wouldn't 4 years of college football (assuming he was on the team/in the locker room all 4 years) acclimatize him to this?

Elite schools like Stanford and Duke (basketball) recruit very carefully. They look at character, academic success, and athletic talent. Their recruits have high gpas, a clean background, good families, and are generally class acts. It's a completely different paradigm from how state schools recruit. Therefore, the locker rooms and campus culture in those institutions are much different as well.

While I don't disagree with anything that was said here, I think perhaps we're over-dramatizing: He's not the prince and the pauper. He's not Prince Harry accidentally lost in Compton. Sure he's been in some nice schools. But anyone who has been to an ivy-league institution (we all know someone) can tell you they can be intense places. LOTS of cut-throat competition. It requires some degree of mental toughness. Most of us, at some point, got pushed by circumstance into some deep, dark space and came out of it thinking "I don't care what you a-holes think - I only care what I think. Fuck you all." And that was the root of whatever mental toughness we have. Jon Martin wasn't marooned on an alien planet. He had plenty of opportunities to develop mental toughness; he just never did. Ironically, my guess is he probably will now. You can be sure some defensive lineman playing against him next time will say some pretty raw stuff about his sister, mother, etc. And my guess is there's a good chance Martin will say "Yeah, whatever asshole...I've seen this movie before".