[Tail Gunner]

(07-18-2018 10:01 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  

(07-16-2018 01:26 PM)Zoso Wrote:  

Hi Mekorig.

What about good properties in BA?
Are prices getting lower or is there a bubble?

(07-16-2018 01:30 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

I just read this recently regarding real estate prices in Argentina. Perhaps Mekorig can verify whether it is true.

Quote:

“Lief, you have been reporting on the depreciation of the Colombian peso. Others I read are suggesting that the real value of depreciated real estate is in Argentina, where the U.S. dollar has appreciated 64%. Am I missing something?

“Can you verify or suggest other relative value rankings for us eager value hunters?”

L.H.

Answer: Real estate in Argentina is priced in U.S. dollars, so a depreciating Argentine peso doesn't affect property prices for the most part.

The best currency discounts for property buyers with U.S. dollars right now are to be found in Colombia... and Brazil.

http://letters.offshorelivingletter.com/...dium=email

Sorry for the lateness. Is what the article says: Properties here and valued in US Dollar, so the pice is not affected by the peso depreciation.

The answer to the question is saying that if you are an American (or anyone else that holds USD), the depreciation of the Argentine peso against the U.S. dollar is irrelevant because property that is bought and sold in Argentina is priced in U.S. dollars. We are asking you whether that is true.

In other words, typically if real estate in South America is priced at the equivalent of $200,000 in the local currency and the local currency depreciates 50% against the USD, then a foreigner who has USD can now purchase that property for the equivalent of $100,000 (by trading USD for the local currency). But some countries buy and sell their real estate in USD. I know that Mexico is one such country. Is Argentine real estate also priced in USD?

[Going strong]

(07-18-2018 11:23 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(07-18-2018 10:01 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  

(07-16-2018 01:26 PM)Zoso Wrote:  

Hi Mekorig.

What about good properties in BA?
Are prices getting lower or is there a bubble?

(07-16-2018 01:30 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

I just read this recently regarding real estate prices in Argentina. Perhaps Mekorig can verify whether it is true.

Quote:

“Lief, you have been reporting on the depreciation of the Colombian peso. Others I read are suggesting that the real value of depreciated real estate is in Argentina, where the U.S. dollar has appreciated 64%. Am I missing something?

“Can you verify or suggest other relative value rankings for us eager value hunters?”

L.H.

Answer: Real estate in Argentina is priced in U.S. dollars, so a depreciating Argentine peso doesn't affect property prices for the most part.

The best currency discounts for property buyers with U.S. dollars right now are to be found in Colombia... and Brazil.

http://letters.offshorelivingletter.com/...dium=email

Sorry for the lateness. Is what the article says: Properties here and valued in US Dollar, so the pice is not affected by the peso depreciation.

The answer to the question is saying that if you are an American (or anyone else that holds USD), the depreciation of the Argentine peso against the U.S. dollar is irrelevant because property that is bought and sold in Argentina is priced in U.S. dollars. We are asking you whether that is true.

In other words, typically if real estate in South America is priced at the equivalent of $200,000 in the local currency and the local currency depreciates 50% against the USD, then a foreigner who has USD can now purchase that property for the equivalent of $100,000 (by trading USD for the local currency). But some countries buy and sell their real estate in USD. I know that Mexico is one such country. Is Argentine real estate also priced in USD?

Is Argentine real estate also priced in USD?: yes, for all intents and purposes, it's in USD.

Argentinian property owners, especially in the Buenos Aires province, have a price (firmly) in mind for their apartments, and it's in USD, and they are not really open to negotiations.

So, peso devaluation has no real incidence on the price of apartments. Unless the situation becomes so dire that some owners are actually starving (corralito situation) and need an urgent sale.

For a good enough apartment in Buenos Aires, you'd need 70.000 usd minimum (and the opening of a local bank account, good luck with that). Three thousand USD per square meter is a minimum for a quality apartment in BsAs, and think 5000 if you target Palermo.

In any case, it's worth noting that anybody with a quarter-million USD, can guarantee and ensure his future quality of life, by buying three apartments in Buenos Aires, living in one and renting out the other two. One would then never feel the obligation to work or stress over investments. The property value of BsAs will not drop during the next one hundred years, as this city is and will remain the most, say, Europeanized city of the continent. Nothing will impact the quality of life in BsAs for one hundred years, whereas in the same time, Western Europe will fall (and has already partially fallen to the Third World).

[rotinz]

I'm interested in potentially doing a semester out in Argentina since one of the colleges out there is ranked fairly high in what I'm interested in studying, how do you think the student life would be out there? If I go to the college there I imagine I'd be around some of the hottest girls in the city and they'd be much more receptive to my game since we are both students. I think this is important because so many guys complain about how hard it is to game Argentinian girls, if I'm a student out there I think that would fix that problem greatly.

For anyone that's been out there and been to any of the university campus how would you rate the girls?

[Mekorig]

Dont know from were are you ronitz, but here de do not have campus like US universities. But beign a foreign student is a good chance to get into the girl's social circles. At what university do you plan to go to study? UBA? UTN? a public or private one?

[trojans10]

Thinking about an Argentina trip soon - how are things on the ground right now?

[Mekorig]

(09-07-2018 08:37 PM)trojans10 Wrote:  

Thinking about an Argentina trip soon - how are things on the ground right now?

Right now....kinda estable-ish. Dont think they dollar will go more than 40 pesos at least until March next year.

You still have the "grieta", the social division or "crack" between lefties and general people who still support the Kirchnner administration, and people who support Macri`s, or just dont want to see the Kirchnners back in power.

Next year its the presidential election. So far Macri is doing a lackuster job, but Kirchnner, his opponent, is hounded by the Justice with lot of corruption trials in the future, and there is no strong enough opposition leader n the game...yet.

[Rossi]

I just watched a documentary about Argentina. This country is basically bankrupted.

Peso was 6.00 for $1 almost five years ago. Now, it's 38 for $1.

[Mekorig]

(09-13-2018 07:09 AM)Rossi Wrote:  

I just watched a documentary about Argentina. This country is basically bankrupted.

Peso was 6.00 for $1 almost five years ago. Now, it's 38 for $1.

We were backrupt. Then we hit it big with the soy, then the Kirchnners spended it all in populist shit/stole it, and now we are facing the fact that we have to save money and act like adults.

[getdownonit]

^ Deep Soy is even infecting beautiful Latinas.

Few are talking about this.

[yesinmyname]

Just got back from Argentina and simply adored it.
Amazing country.
Was not a bang mission so nothing to report on that front, but helped by the sinking peso in the days of my stay and the change after fierce negotiation in calle Florida, it was a bargain trip, also considering the flight from Italy.

Felt strange thinking to be in Latin America and feeling so safe, never get overcharged by taxis, sharing meaningful discussions with common people and feeling basically at home, just with more polite and engaging locals.

Had my fair share of walk in BA, visiting whatever was humanly possible, and enjoyed it.
Only in La Boca (I mean the bad part of it, not El Caminito) had to be careful and not straying too much from La Usina del Arte, a former port plant transformed into a cultural center, where I've attended at some tango lessons.

I don't see this country going really bankrupt, sensation is that at the end of the day they manage to put their shit together, but feels so '80 to see every bank's hall fully clogged of people waiting for hours not sure what.
And I mean a massive crowd at the morning opening lining at the numbers dispenser and elders waiting over 100 numbers before their turn.

Add to it the rapacious security who jumps on anyone daring to pull out the phone to kill the wait, since it's forbidden touching electronics.

I can imagine how a surveillance state has been put into place to make sure nodoby could even think of freely move his own money.

Patagonia is incredible, and worth the hype.

WcB= would come back

[Mekorig]

(09-13-2018 12:08 PM)yesinmyname Wrote:  

Just got back from Argentina and simply adored it.
Amazing country.
Was not a bang mission so nothing to report on that front, but helped by the sinking peso in the days of my stay and the change after fierce negotiation in calle Florida, it was a bargain trip, also considering the flight from Italy.

Felt strange thinking to be in Latin America and feeling so safe, never get overcharged by taxis, sharing meaningful discussions with common people and feeling basically at home, just with more polite and engaging locals.

Had my fair share of walk in BA, visiting whatever was humanly possible, and enjoyed it.
Only in La Boca (I mean the bad part of it, not El Caminito) had to be careful and not straying too much from La Usina del Arte, a former port plant transformed into a cultural center, where I've attended at some tango lessons.

I don't see this country going really bankrupt, sensation is that at the end of the day they manage to put their shit together, but feels so '80 to see every bank's hall fully clogged of people waiting for hours not sure what.
And I mean a massive crowd at the morning opening lining at the numbers dispenser and elders waiting over 100 numbers before their turn.

Add to it the rapacious security who jumps on anyone daring to pull out the phone to kill the wait, since it's forbidden touching electronics.

I can imagine how a surveillance state has been put into place to make sure nodoby could even think of freely move his own money.

Patagonia is incredible, and worth the hype.

WcB= would come back

Glad you like the country @yesinmyname. La Boca outside Caminito can be dangerous, and even locals can get robbed there. You were lucky. But the neighboorhood is getting gentryfied little by little.

As for the banks, things is digital banking is not much widespread among people, and still you have to do a lot of paperwork in the baks (checks, deposits, etc). The elders are waiting for their pensions. A lot of mistrust for the bank still lingers since 2001, a people prefer to not have money in the banks.

The thing about the cellphone is connected to a series of high profile crimes were people got robbed after extracting a big ammount of money, because they got "marked" in the banks by scouts inside the common areas of the banks. So a couple of preventive actions were putting screen in the bank counters, and prohibiting the use of cellphones inside the banks.

[Tail Gunner]

(09-13-2018 10:49 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  

(09-13-2018 07:09 AM)Rossi Wrote:  

I just watched a documentary about Argentina. This country is basically bankrupted.

Peso was 6.00 for $1 almost five years ago. Now, it's 38 for $1.

We were backrupt. Then we hit it big with the soy, then the Kirchnners spended it all in populist shit/stole it, and now we are facing the fact that we have to save money and act like adults.

I just read an article today about Argentina's portion of the lithium triangle. There may be big things happening in Salta in the future. It sure looks like a giant wasteland, but mining areas usually do. Argentina may have an important role to play in the future with lithium.

https://capitalistexploits.at/2018/09/fi...l-lithium/

[Salaryman]

Did you exchange into peso at official exchange rate in banks (or credit card) or can you get better rate elsewhere?

(09-13-2018 12:08 PM)yesinmyname Wrote:  

Just got back from Argentina and simply adored it.
Amazing country.
Was not a bang mission so nothing to report on that front, but helped by the sinking peso in the days of my stay and the change after fierce negotiation in calle Florida, it was a bargain trip, also considering the flight from Italy.

.

[fountainofyouth]

How are the prices for rent, food, gym etc. developing at the moment?

Do they increase in relation to the exchange rate with foreign currencies or do they stay the same (hence becoming a bargain for foreigners)?

[Mekorig]

They increase at the level of inflation.

[yesinmyname]

(09-15-2018 01:12 AM)Salaryman Wrote:  

Did you exchange into peso at official exchange rate in banks (or credit card) or can you get better rate elsewhere?

(09-13-2018 12:08 PM)yesinmyname Wrote:  

Just got back from Argentina and simply adored it.
Amazing country.
Was not a bang mission so nothing to report on that front, but helped by the sinking peso in the days of my stay and the change after fierce negotiation in calle Florida, it was a bargain trip, also considering the flight from Italy.

.

As said I exchanged in calle Florida. Asked a few of the guys and chicks shouting "cambio cambio" and surprisingly the unofficial rate was lower of what published on the display of the banks meters from them.

Therefore had a good edge for haggling down the price a bit, say 0.30/0.40 less than the official conversion.

Exchanged 600 euros thus it added up quite a bit.

From the calle they take you inside some dark gallery to an unpretentious store. Fortunately had no issues with counterfeit bills.

Worth noting it's smarter to go during the banks opening times, just to leverage the competition factor.
When I asked why should I exchange my money to you instead of banks when your rate is poorer, the first thing they answered was "but in bank you need a lot of documents", which I replied c'mon, I just need my passport.
I was met with a shrug. From there is easier to talk them down a bit.

Keep in mind things change fast and tomorrow calle Florida may be uncompetitive at all or a huge advantage like in the old days, who knows.

[Going strong]

In case you are wondering how and why the "calle Florida" money-changers can sometimes offer a price lower (if they buy USD) than a bank (or higher if they sell USD), it is because they also target local, or South American, people who could not justify the origin of cash money they would change in a bank.

I mean, if you are an Argentinian citizen who pays no taxes, or a South American nar... sorry, expat living in some "country" north of BsAs, you cannot justify that you would change big sums of cash money in a bank: how did you lay your hands on so much usd or pesos, pray tell? So such people need to go to the street money changers.

On the other hand, if you look (and dress) gringo but speak good Spanish, usually the street money changers will propose to you (post-Cristina) slightly better rates than the bank rates, to buy your USD or euros.

[Tail Gunner]

(09-17-2018 06:34 AM)Going strong Wrote:  

On the other hand, if you look (and dress) gringo but speak good Spanish, usually the street money changers will propose to you (post-Cristina) slightly better rates than the bank rates, to buy your USD or euros.

For only slightly better rates, definitely not worth the risk of traveling "inside some dark gallery."

[yesinmyname]

Thanks Going Strong, makes perfectly sense.
I fact when in BA I was like "wtf, why they do this?"

Tail Gunner on paper I agree with you, but the feeling on the ground is of a perfectly smooth and safe transaction, nothing really out of the ordinary.

The overall environment is like business as usual and never thought they were going to pull at gun at me and I'm done. Plus I was happy to leave my passport at home in Palermo and not have to carry it around the entire day.

For small sums probably most of people aren't going to bother and just wait their turn in a bank.

[fountainofyouth]

(09-17-2018 10:13 AM)yesinmyname Wrote:  

Thanks Going Strong, makes perfectly sense.
I fact when in BA I was like "wtf, why they do this?"

Tail Gunner on paper I agree with you, but the feeling on the ground is of a perfectly smooth and safe transaction, nothing really out of the ordinary.

The overall environment is like business as usual and never thought they were going to pull at gun at me and I'm done. Plus I was happy to leave my passport at home in Palermo and not have to carry it around the entire day.

For small sums probably most of people aren't going to bother and just wait their turn in a bank.

Thank you for clarifying.

Is paying with credit card widespread in Argentina? Do you remember which exchange rates you got on your CC bill in case you paid with it?

Do you also remember possibly which exchange rates you got at the official banks or at ATMs? Were they aligned with the market rates or artificially kept lower? I've heard tales of the banks artificially keeping exchange rates lower in the past. I will be coming from another SA country, so it will be difficult for me to enter the country with a lot of cash in USD or EUR.

[yesinmyname]

(09-17-2018 11:01 AM)fountainofyouth Wrote:  

(09-17-2018 10:13 AM)yesinmyname Wrote:  

Thanks Going Strong, makes perfectly sense.

Thank you for clarifying.

Is paying with credit card widespread in Argentina? Do you remember which exchange rates you got on your CC bill in case you paid with it?

Do you also remember possibly which exchange rates you got at the official banks or at ATMs? Were they aligned with the market rates or artificially kept lower? I've heard tales of the banks artificially keeping exchange rates lower in the past. I will be coming from another SA country, so it will be difficult for me to enter the country with a lot of cash in USD or EUR.

No, CC are not widespread and I was happy with it.
I'm at a point after so many trips abroad to be sick of enriching CC issuers, and increasing my cash payments, even in my home country (for "social" reasons).

But Mekorig or Going Strong will be more on point to answer this.

I just paid some hotels with plastic to save the 21% VAT, and the rest with hard cash.

I changed EUR/ARS at the official rate of the day (1€= 35ARS) and didn't notice any difference with my app rate.

The following days of course the ARS dropped a lot and now it's at 45ARS for each euro (40USD).
I think it was after Macrì demanded the funding from the IMF, but I'm not sure this was the reason.

[fountainofyouth]

(09-17-2018 11:50 AM)yesinmyname Wrote:  

No, CC are not widespread and I was happy with it.
I'm at a point after so many trips abroad to be sick of enriching CC issuers, and increasing my cash payments, even in my home country (for "social" reasons).

But Mekorig or Going Strong will be more on point to answer this.

I just paid some hotels with plastic to save the 21% VAT, and the rest with hard cash.

I changed EUR/ARS at the official rate of the day (1€= 35ARS) and didn't notice any difference with my app rate.

The following days of course the ARS dropped a lot and now it's at 45ARS for each euro (40USD).
I think it was after Macrì demanded the funding from the IMF, but I'm not sure this was the reason.

Thanks for the intel
So just to be clear: The official banks and ATMs offered getting pesos at the market rate or only the exchange people on the streets?
Do you mind to elaborate how you were able to save 21% VAT by paying with CC?

For those who are curious: Consumer Price Index (CPI) has risen from 117 to 155 index points during the last year (+32%). Exchange rate of EUR to Argentine Pesos has increased from 20 to 46 pesos (+230%). Entering Argentine with EUR or USD, your purchasing power should be considerably higher than one year ago, even considering inflation. The CPI data doesn't include September yet, so the difference might be a bit smaller than described here.

https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/c...-index-cpi
https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/con...EUR&To=ARS

[Going strong]

(09-17-2018 02:46 PM)fountainofyouth Wrote:  

(09-17-2018 11:50 AM)yesinmyname Wrote:  

No, CC are not widespread and I was happy with it.
I'm at a point after so many trips abroad to be sick of enriching CC issuers, and increasing my cash payments, even in my home country (for "social" reasons).

But Mekorig or Going Strong will be more on point to answer this.

I just paid some hotels with plastic to save the 21% VAT, and the rest with hard cash.

I changed EUR/ARS at the official rate of the day (1€= 35ARS) and didn't notice any difference with my app rate.

The following days of course the ARS dropped a lot and now it's at 45ARS for each euro (40USD).
I think it was after Macrì demanded the funding from the IMF, but I'm not sure this was the reason.

Thanks for the intel
So just to be clear: The official banks and ATMs offered getting pesos at the market rate or only the exchange people on the streets?
Do you mind to elaborate how you were able to save 21% VAT by paying with CC?

For those who are curious: Consumer Price Index (CPI) has risen from 117 to 155 index points during the last year (+32%). Exchange rate of EUR to Argentine Pesos has increased from 20 to 46 pesos (+230%). Entering Argentine with EUR or USD, your purchasing power should be considerably higher than one year ago, even considering inflation. The CPI data doesn't include September yet, so the difference might be a bit smaller than described here.

https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/c...-index-cpi
https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/con...EUR&To=ARS

Consumer Price Index (CPI) has risen from 117 to 155 index points during the last year (+32%). Exchange rate of EUR to Argentine Pesos has increased from 20 to 46 pesos (+230%)

Problem is, CPI is not to be totally trusted on this. Real inflation probably is, for last year (including services and cost of transports and petrol), say 40%?, and if you include September you might as well add, ten points?

Also, everything priced in USD like hosting on airbnb or imported electronics, will be more or less the same as one year ago.

The VAT thing is, if I remember well, because foreigners do not need to pay taxes when booking hotel rooms in Buenos Aires and paying by card. More interestingly by the way, a neighboring country is offering VAT exemptions to Argentinians, to foster cross-border tourism.

As to ATMs, by law they have to offer pesos at a rate close enough to the official central bank rate. Now, they might display yesterday's rate, which can be a problem if the peso just lost ten percents or some.

The peso, matter of fact, was stopped (temporarily?) in its fall by Macri's sage decision to take loans from the FMI, not the other way round. Also relevant to the peso rate, are dates of "expiration" linked to important financial stuff called Lebac.

In any case, yes, every shrewd traveler should have his eyes on Argentina right now. If this (splendid) country remains cheap, it is and will be, undoubtedly, one of the best places for a European or American to travel or settle.

[BBinger]

Watching the Argentine Peso from my perch in Montevideo where nearly every corner has a currency exchange advertising buy/sell prices has been a real trip. Around the New Year Argentine pesos could be bought for two Uruguayo pesos or sold for one Uruguayo peso (Hella spread). Now the spread is still there but you buy one peso Uruguayo for two Argentine pesos or sell a Uruguayo pesos for an Argentine pesos.

Needless to say there's not reason not to just cross the border with USD. Note the Peso Uruguayo hasn't been completely unaffected. It went from 28 to the Dollar around new years to 33 to the dollar today.

[yesinmyname]

@fountainofyouth ATMs are out of question due the extortionate fees and low withdraw limits.
So you have the banks or unofficial cambio options, in both cases linked to the official market rate (for now).

The VAT saving I guess is a tourism incentive measure, and dutifully observed by all hotels I've been to.
Naturally to be effective you gotta prove the government the payment hence the CC is the only way to do it.

Only once I got screwed by a shitty place in Rio Gallegos, which required a cash payment upon check-in.
After a couple of hours I realized it was so dirty and cold that we moved to an hotel, inquiring a refund at booking.com explaining the issue and documenting it with photos.
Yesterday I got their email apologizing and processing the refund.