[Petrosius]

Hi guys

Since a long time I've been thinking in living in Sweden.

Its one of the few countries of the world with an amazing welfare state..

For those who are swedes or know about the country.I have some questions:

*Which are the economic expectations of the country ?are they expected to grow?

*Which is the direction of the swedish society?(demographics and so on)

*Labor conditions and average cost of living?

I've found a channel of a expat british guy who is now living there...is fucking funny(about all the aspects of swedish society) :

http://www.bigstevefromengland.com/

[Vicious]

You are asking for way to much.

Break it down.

[...]

Why do you want to live in Sweden, and where in Sweden do you intend to live?

[Tail Gunner]

(11-16-2013 02:01 PM)Petrosius Wrote:  

Its one of the few countries of the world with an amazing welfare state.

For those who are swedes or know about the country.I have some questions:

*Which are the economic expectations of the country ?are they expected to grow?

A welfare state with reliable economic expansion is an oxymoron. All welfare states eventually suffer economic panics or collapses.

Quote:

Fifty years ago, Sweden and America spent about the same on their government, a bit under 30% of GDP. This is no longer true. In the years leading up to Sweden's financial crisis in the early 1990s, government spending went as high as 60% of GDP. In America it barely budged, increasing only to about 33%.

While America was maintaining its standing as one of the world's wealthiest nations, Sweden's standing fell. In 1970, Sweden was the fourth richest country in the world on a per capita basis. By 1993, it had fallen to 17th.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10...1192320912

Quote:

But unemployment was 27 percent in the first quarter of 2013 in the 15-24-year age group, Nordea Markets Research said in a recent report.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100757907

[GeekGame]

Norway, Denmark are more progressive and have more economic growth in the future..Sweden..no so much

[Vicious]

The problem with these really broad social topics on RVF is that you'll have all sorts of agenda pushers crawling out of the woodwork ready to tell you anything.

(11-17-2013 02:19 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

A welfare state with reliable economic expansion is an oxymoron. All welfare states eventually suffer economic panics or collapses.

Quote:

Fifty years ago, Sweden and America spent about the same on their government, a bit under 30% of GDP. This is no longer true. In the years leading up to Sweden's financial crisis in the early 1990s, government spending went as high as 60% of GDP. In America it barely budged, increasing only to about 33%.

While America was maintaining its standing as one of the world's wealthiest nations, Sweden's standing fell. In 1970, Sweden was the fourth richest country in the world on a per capita basis. By 1993, it had fallen to 17th.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10...1192320912

No idea where that paper gets its data from.
According to the World bank the Swedish government spending as part of GDP has been steadily around 30% for years. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.CON.GOVT.

For the last 10 years the country has also outperformed the USA in economic growth. See the data quoted below.

Ranking GDP however is completely irrelevant to measuring personal welfare since we know such a low percentage of people in the US control such a major part of the wealth. Whereas in the Scandinavian countries it is more distributed. You'd have to look at income equality to get the full picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...e_equality

Sweden is at #2 in the Gini index.

(11-17-2013 06:43 AM)GeekGame Wrote:  

Norway, Denmark are more progressive and have more economic growth in the future..Sweden..no so much

Is that so? I assume you have a crystal ball, I on the other hand brought data.

From the World bank data. GDP growth % by year up to 2012
Brackets denote number of years the country has had the highest growth among the 4 in the category.
Code:

Code:

Denmark 0,38 2,30 2,45     3,39    1,58    -0,78    -5,67    1,58    1,10    -0,47 (0/10)
Norway 0,98 3,96    2,59    2,30    2,65    0,07    -1,6    0,48    1,22    3,09  (3/10)
Sweden 2,34 4,23 3,16    4,30    3,31    -0,61    -5,03    6,56    3,71    0,74  (6/10)
USA 2,55  3,48    3,08    2,66    1,91    -0,36    -3,11    2,38    1,80    2,21  (1/10)

Again as is often the case on this topic. Lots of partisan blabber, little connection with reality.

[Tail Gunner]

(11-17-2013 09:39 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

The problem with these really broad social topics on RVF is that you'll have all sorts of agenda pushers crawling out of the woodwork ready to tell you anything.

No need to be so hard on yourself, but I admire your honesty.

(11-17-2013 09:39 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

For the last 10 years the country has also outperformed the USA in economic growth. See the data quoted below.

Thank you for proving my point. The U.S. has been in a recession since 2008 (despite what the government may say) with the worst economic performance since the Great Depression -- and yet Sweden has similar growth rates!

Read this article by a Swede who left Sweden fourteen years ago.

http://snaphanen.dk/2013/03/04/the-crumb...are-state/

Quote:

Diamond and Saez should note that Sweden’s high marginal tax rates (and the associated Swedish welfare system) had a disastrous effect on economic growth. From 1850 to 1950, Swedish productivity growth was the fastest in the world. Sweden’s stellar economic performance made it the fourth richest OECD economy in 1970. By 1995, Sweden had fallen to sixteenth place – the most dramatic relative decline of any affluent country in history. Notably, Swedish firms operating outside of Sweden remained competitive. They were not the problem. The Swedish model was.

The Swedish experiment also shows the importance of what the government does with its money. Universal benefits destroyed the work ethic. Instead of “high return public investments,” Sweden raised public employment and expanded cradle-to-grave entitlements. The solidarity wage destroyed incentives to acquire skills or enroll in higher education. Regional subsidies slowed the movement of people from stagnating to growing regions.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderick...tax-gurus/

[rudebwoy]

You will need to know the language, otherwise good luck getting a job. There are many tales on the internet of people moving to Sweden and the trials/tribulations they go through in searching for a job.
The winters are also harsh and long, this coming from a Canadian.

[Laner]

(11-17-2013 12:00 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

You will need to know the language, otherwise good luck getting a job. There are many tales on the internet of people moving to Sweden and the trials/tribulations they go through in searching for a job.
The winters are also harsh and long, this coming from a Canadian.

Not entirely true.

I worked with Huqvarna, Atlas Copco, Zenit, Designit, Sony/Erikson and they all work in English. This is only to name a few.

In fact in Malmo, almost all the international companies have a working language of English. Malmo might be a foreigners best bet.

The hardest part is competing with highly educated and very competent intelligent Swedes for the jobs.

[rudebwoy]

Laner - I assume you are a professional or a specialist in some area. If you read thelocal.se, there are many people who have married a swede and found it almost impossible to land a decent job.
One gentleman even did a Masters program in Swedish and had to leave the country to find work.
I do have a friend who works there for a major multinational but he is a specialist in his field.
I was told and get the impression swedes like to hire swedes.

[Laner]

(11-17-2013 12:36 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Laner - I assume you are a professional or a specialist in some area. If you read thelocal.se, there are many people who have married a swede and found it almost impossible to land a decent job.
One gentleman even did a Masters program in Swedish and had to leave the country to find work.
I do have a friend who works there for a major multinational but he is a specialist in his field.
I was told and get the impression swedes like to hire swedes.

I am not a specialist, but I do have a technical degree and interesting work experience.

Most foreigners I met from the Americas who married Swedes and couldnt find work had useless degrees. The Local loves to focus on the oppression of foreigners. And a masters in Swedish? In Sweden? Useless (unless teaching).

Swedes do like to hire Swedes. Same as anywhere. Give them a good reason to hire you, and they will. Sweden is one of the most industrious countries in the world. Just look at the population vs world class industrial companies.

They are where they are by having an eye for talent, and damn smart men and women backing the companies up.

[BishesMyron]

(11-17-2013 12:36 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I was told and get the impression swedes like to hire swedes.

I go to a top target school / good GPA and was told by HR that even though English is the main working language, they prefer to hire someone who speaks any one of the scandinavian language, which I believe is a non racist way of saying we want only Nordic people.

[SKY IS THE LIMIT]

sweden is the worst feminist country on the world right ?

[Laner]

(11-17-2013 12:56 PM)BishesMyron Wrote:  

(11-17-2013 12:36 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I was told and get the impression swedes like to hire swedes.

I go to a top target school / good GPA and was told by HR that even though English is the main working language, they prefer to hire someone who speaks any one of the scandinavian language, which I believe is a non racist way of saying we want only Nordic people.

Exactly. They prefer to hire from Scandinavia. But of course this is not always the case.

You have to give them a reason to hire you. Keep in mind most Swedes are well traveled, speak 4 languages, are very active and in shape, have a high sense of fashion, etc. If you cant say the same, then why would they hire you?

[BishesMyron]

(11-17-2013 01:24 PM)Laner Wrote:  

(11-17-2013 12:56 PM)BishesMyron Wrote:  

(11-17-2013 12:36 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I was told and get the impression swedes like to hire swedes.

I go to a top target school / good GPA and was told by HR that even though English is the main working language, they prefer to hire someone who speaks any one of the scandinavian language, which I believe is a non racist way of saying we want only Nordic people.

Exactly. They prefer to hire from Scandinavia. But of course this is not always the case.

You have to give them a reason to hire you. Keep in mind most Swedes are well traveled, speak 4 languages, are very active and in shape, have a high sense of fashion, etc. If you cant say the same, then why would they hire you?

Don't really want to sound conceited but since you mention, my school is a target for Goldman and I applied for a regional bank, well travelled, slickback undercut haircut and I easily outdress an average scandinavian.

In general we can conclude that they are not really international and diverse and prefer someone of their own, somewhere you will hit the glass ceiling very soon

[Courage Reborn]

(11-17-2013 01:16 PM)SKY IS THE LIMIT Wrote:  

sweden is the worst feminist country on the world right ?

Been here 1 day. So far, US cities like San Fran and DC are more feminist. By a lot.

[Vicious]

(11-17-2013 11:39 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(11-17-2013 09:39 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

For the last 10 years the country has also outperformed the USA in economic growth. See the data quoted below.

Thank you for proving my point. The U.S. has been in a recession since 2008 (despite what the government may say) with the worst economic performance since the Great Depression -- and yet Sweden has similar growth rates!

Are you being ironic? Or have you missed that most of the western world suffered recessions as well as a result? The Swedish currency is tied to the dollar so the Swedish economy suffered massively.

Or maybe you're just phrasing Obama's strong work during the latest years. I don't know because you're not making any sense at all. The definition of a recession is to have a fall in GDP in two successive quarters yet you're acknowledging that the US GDP has been growing.

Oops?

Quote:

Read this article by a Swede who left Sweden fourteen years ago.

http://snaphanen.dk/2013/03/04/the-crumb...are-state/

Quote:

Diamond and Saez should note that Sweden’s high marginal tax rates (and the associated Swedish welfare system) had a disastrous effect on economic growth. From 1850 to 1950, Swedish productivity growth was the fastest in the world. Sweden’s stellar economic performance made it the fourth richest OECD economy in 1970. By 1995, Sweden had fallen to sixteenth place – the most dramatic relative decline of any affluent country in history. Notably, Swedish firms operating outside of Sweden remained competitive. They were not the problem. The Swedish model was.

The Swedish experiment also shows the importance of what the government does with its money. Universal benefits destroyed the work ethic. Instead of “high return public investments,” Sweden raised public employment and expanded cradle-to-grave entitlements. The solidarity wage destroyed incentives to acquire skills or enroll in higher education. Regional subsidies slowed the movement of people from stagnating to growing regions.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderick...tax-gurus/

I notice you only post blog posts/opinion pieces as sources. Have you studied any economy? Do you know how to interpret any of the underlying data? Or do you just google random phrases that support your wishful thinking? I'm serious, you're just quoting loosely connected sound bites.

For start you neglected to notice this part from your very own source above:

Quote:

Sweden and Germany are today the two best performing European states, both governed by center-right parties.

Obviously I wasn't clear enough about GDP earlier so we'll show you the error in your reasoning again. Here's a graph: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/sweden/gdp-per-capita
For starters it clearly shows the major hit the economy took due to the credit crunch in 2008. But that's an aside.

Primarily you'll see how Sweden's GDP per capita since 1960 has grown by 200%. So while the nation might have lost places on the national ranking, it has in no way "fallen". Now, use that same link above and check Sweden's and the USA's Debt to GDP percentage and tell me which nation's GDP growth figures inspire more confidence?

...
I've had this discussion since I first got on the Internet 15 years ago. It always ends the same.

There's always someone doped up on Rush Limbaugh sermons trying to make a straw man out of the Scandinavian countries economic position in hope that knocking them down they've universally debunked the welfare state. No I don't advocate a welfare state for the US. Sweden can carry it's governmental expenses because Swedes work, live and pay their debts the way Swedes do.

[Vicious]

(11-17-2013 02:51 PM)BishesMyron Wrote:  

Don't really want to sound conceited but since you mention, my school is a target for Goldman and I applied for a regional bank, well travelled, slickback undercut haircut and I easily outdress an average scandinavian.

In general we can conclude that they are not really international and diverse and prefer someone of their own, somewhere you will hit the glass ceiling very soon

Certainly. If you're all that jazz, why would you bother with small fry like a Swedish regional bank?

Sour grapes.

[Tail Gunner]

(11-18-2013 03:10 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(11-17-2013 11:39 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(11-17-2013 09:39 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

For the last 10 years the country has also outperformed the USA in economic growth. See the data quoted below.

Thank you for proving my point. The U.S. has been in a recession since 2008 (despite what the government may say) with the worst economic performance since the Great Depression -- and yet Sweden has similar growth rates!

Are you being ironic? Or have you missed that most of the western world suffered recessions as well as a result? The Swedish currency is tied to the dollar so the Swedish economy suffered massively.

Or maybe you're just phrasing Obama's strong work during the latest years. I don't know because you're not making any sense at all. The definition of a recession is to have a fall in GDP in two successive quarters yet you're acknowledging that the US GDP has been growing.

Oops?

I am the one dealing with reality -- and not artificial constructs. That definition is one of several definitions of a recession -- and not an accurate indicator of the current economic climate. Ironically, liberals argued against that very definition during the moribund economy during the Bush Administration in the period leading to the economic meltdown, when there was no fall in GDP in two successive quarters -- yet the country was clearly in a recession leading up to the 2008 financial crisis.

I suppose that you also trust the government regarding inflation rates and unemployment levels. The U.S. government claims an inflation rate of two or three percent, when it is almost ten percent based on the politically unbiased formula used before 1980.

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_dat...ion-charts


The real unemployment is over twenty percent, not seven percent.

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_dat...ent-charts


So, some arbitrary definition of a recession, does not mean too much. There are some people who really know what is going on in the world. That information exists for those willing to set aside their biases and to seek it out. Think outside the box. Unfortunately, today that means thinking like a rational person did fifty years ago.

In summary, high inflation plus high unemployment equals stagflation, which is what the U.S. is experiencing in the worst U.S. economy since the Great Depression. So claiming that Sweden is doing better than the U.S. economically, even if true, means absolutely nothing.

Sweden is not governed by a center-right party, which is why I included the first link. It might be considered a center-right party by Swedish standards, but that would be like calling the Democratic Party in the U.S. a a center-right party if only it and a communist party existed (with no Republican Party). Again, that is not reality.

Quote:

Sweden can carry it's governmental expenses because Swedes work, live and pay their debts the way Swedes do.

I have no problem with that. That is their choice. My point is that every government that has tried some version of the social welfare state, from ancient times onward, has eventually failed. No one learns from history any more. The socialist welfare states of western Europe are one giant experiment. Greece, Cyprus, and the health of the PIIGS -- and even France -- are canaries in the coal mine. I suppose by that standard, Sweden might look pretty good. But that is not saying much.

[calwinston]

Quote:

But unemployment was 27 percent in the first quarter of 2013 in the 15-24-year age group, Nordea Markets Research said in a recent report.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100757907
[/quote]

Ehhhh I wouldn't read too much in the 15-24 age group not being employed. You have to remember that college students in the Scandinavian countries get a stipend to go to school.

[BishesMyron]

(11-18-2013 03:15 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

Certainly. If you're all that jazz, why would you bother with small fry like a Swedish regional bank?

Sour grapes.

Better working hours and who wouldn't like to have well paid internship in semi poosy paradise like Stockholm?

[Vicious]

(11-18-2013 03:38 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

So, some arbitrary definition of a recession, does not mean too much. There are some people who really know what is going on in the world. That information exists for those willing to set aside their biases and to seek it out. Think outside the box. Unfortunately, today that means thinking like a rational person did fifty years ago.

All official internationally accepted numbers are lies. The truth is out there.

Quote:

In summary, high inflation plus high unemployment equals stagflation, which is what the U.S. is experiencing in the worst U.S. economy since the Great Depression. So claiming that Sweden is doing better than the U.S. economically, even if true, means absolutely nothing.

When Swedish economy lags it's because of welfare.
When US economy lags it's because of external factors and not rampant debt.

How could I not see this!

Quote:

Sweden is not governed by a center-right party, which is why I included the first link. It might be considered a center-right party by Swedish standards, but that would be like calling the Democratic Party in the U.S. a a center-right party if only it and a communist party existed (with no Republican Party). Again, that is not reality.

So your source is correct. Except the parts that are not correct. Got it!

Quote:

I have no problem with that. That is their choice. My point is that every government that has tried some version of the social welfare state, from ancient times onward, has eventually failed. No one learns from history any more. The socialist welfare states of western Europe are one giant experiment. Greece, Cyprus, and the health of the PIIGS -- and even France -- are canaries in the coal mine. I suppose by that standard, Sweden might look pretty good. But that is not saying much.

Kinda like all states have failed, except the ones that haven't yet. Makes sense.

[RenewalMan]

I've been living in Sweden for about a year. Speak the language pretty well now but that's only happened in the last 2-3 months or so. I got a job after about 4 months of living here. Full time after about 5. It wasn't my dream job, but it pays the bills and pays 2.5 times better than if I was doing the same thing in the states. Plus there's benefits--health care being just one aspect. Every person working in Sweden is entitled to around 4-5 weeks of paid vacation a year, regardless of job, sick days are also available. It's not impossible to get a job here. You just have to want it bad enough/network. Networking is key here. I went to some conference about finding jobs, and they said that over 80% of jobs in Sweden aren't even advertised, instead gotten through networking.

If you have a trade skill--welding, construction/home improvement (professionally), chef to name a few, you can find work fairly easily. There's usually a large amount of immigrants working within the these fields. I even had an acquaintance that went to welding school here in Sweden--everything paid for by the unemployment office. I think he even received a small sum of money each month from them.. He had about 4 months of school, 2 months of internship and now works making about 17000 kr/month after taxes (somewhere around $2.5k). He spoke 0 English and only a bit of Swedish at the time.

That's not to say you should come here and forget learning the language. Often employers will want to know that you have at-least put forth some effort in learning and see that you can understand, more than you can speak. Then they know that you will understand various documents, be able to take part in meetings, etc. It's 100% okay to talk English to Swedes as long as they can respond back to you in Swedish. This is especially true with the older generation as they tend to speak a little less English and/or feel less comfortable speaking English than say 40 and under.

I'm currently looking for something that's more in my scope of education, and have been calling and emailing almost every day trying to get the balls rolling.. I know it's going to happen sooner than later. It just takes some drive.

[rudebwoy]

Renewal - so basically it was tough to land a decent gig there and most jobs for non-swedes are unskilled.

Your job pays 2.5x more than what it does in the USA, but aren't things almost double in cost in Sweden?

The few times I was there everyone was drinking beer in the clubs due to the cost, I ordered tequila shots and the price was astronomical.

[RenewalMan]

No, most jobs for non-swedes are not unskilled, but it is easier to land an "unskilled" job in Sweden, as I'm sure it is everywhere globally. I would say it's easier for an immigrant to land a job here in Sweden than it is for someone to land the equivalent job in the states.
The thing is, the "unskilled" jobs here pay well enough to give you a chance to live, and not live badly. If you say the US has a 0-100 gap between poor and the rich, Sweden's gap is more like 30-60 on that same scale.

If you have a good job history/CV and your qualified, you can and will land a job here. I know multiple professionals that don't speak much or any Swedish. The thing is, many if not most Swedes are highly educated and highly intelligent, like Laner said. The majority of people who are worth a damn are employed here. There's quite a few asylum seeking immigrants who just leech off of society and give nothing in return, which skews the statistics.

As far as it being double expensive here, I wouldn't go that far. Housing is comparably priced. Food is more a bit expensive, but not double. If you go out to eat you're looking at about 2-2.5 times the price of the states for the most part. Drinks are also excessively expensive, but no different from any other 1st tier American city. However, eating out isn't something you need to do everyday, and drinking can be done before you go out and then buy a few beers throughout the night.

Bottom line, the quality of life is good here and is not unattainable for immigrants. Likewise it's not handed to you on a golden platter. But it's not as if immigrants storm into countries and take over anywhere they go. Immigrants struggle to integrate into society and over time make it with the right attitude.