[Beyond Borders]

I talked a girlfriend into it once. She was a bipolar nutcase and a pathological liar who would have made my life a living hell had I fathered her child, even after I inevitably left her - I'm pretty sure she got pregnant on purpose. I was 19 and she was 28 or 29 and already had two children.

Even if it seems like the right decision on the surface (given our society's acceptance of it as an option), the reality of going through with it killed me. Some of you might find me a sensitive guy, and I do tend to be an emotionally-driven person at times, but once we were in the room, I waited for the doctor to leave, and I told her we should just walk out. She balked and insisted on going through with it, a bitter look on her face, as if she decided to stay on course to spite me.

I said fine, probably to spite her back (don't forget I was only 19).

After I left the hospital I cried like a female on the drive to work, and I never let the guilt go completely. The baby was still early-term, but I remember that in the first sonogram, it had a heartbeat. I decided after that I would never deprive another person, especially my own son or daughter, of the opportunity for life like that again. No matter what happened, I would accept the consequences of my own actions.

The older I get, the more strongly I feel about this and the more I see the practice as barbaric, immoral, and bizarre. It blows my mind that our society goes by this belief that women can kill their own children - the only criteria being that 1) it's her decision and 2) its still in her womb.

"It's my body," they say, and I can't help but think that's just another hamster-driven excuse for selfish behavior, of the worst kind, and total lack of accountability for one's own actions. When I think of these broads who have abortion after abortion as a form of birth control, it makes me want to throw up - what a miserable excuse for a human being...

I was raised by a single mother and the whole idea of women having the power over their own bodies was ingrained at an early age. Now it all sounds like rhetoric.

A case discussed a month or so ago comes to mind when a guy slipped pills to his girl to force a miscarriage and they wanted to charge him with murder. Not sure what happened to that guy, and what he did was indeed fucked up, but the double-standard on what constitutes homicide is appalling.

Malcom Galdwell talks about how abortions drastically lower crime rates, and I can see the logic, but there has to be a better way - more responsibility along the lines of not getting prego in the first place, perhaps...

I'm sure a lot of you players disagree with my stance on this, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I'd especially like to see 2Wycked tear into this subject some time, no matter what his take.

Just to spark your appetite before your next meal, here's a disturbing excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on Intact D&X surgery, a procedure sometimes used in late-term abortions:

Quote:

Once the cervix is sufficiently dilated, the doctor uses an ultrasound and forceps to grasp the fetus's leg. The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the cervix, which some refer to as 'partial birth' of the fetus. The doctor subsequently extracts the rest of the fetus, leaving only the head still inside the uterus. An incision is made at the base of the skull, a blunt dissector (such as a Kelly clamp) is inserted into the incision and opened to widen the opening,[4] and then a suction catheter is inserted into the opening. The brain is suctioned out, which causes the skull to collapse and allows the fetus to pass more easily through the cervix. The placenta is removed and the uterine wall is vacuum aspirated using a cannula.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dila...extraction

How can an infant with not only formed legs but a brain not be considered human enough to be entitled to its life? To be fair, I'm not exactly sure how common this sort of thing is, as my education on this subject is minimal, but the very thought that anyone, anywhere finds this an acceptable way to escape parental obligations boggles my mind...

As Gladwell points out, perhaps the good it does for society overall is its saving grace. But what good does it do for our society long-term, say 30 - 60 years instead of 18, when we give ourselves such an "easy" way to dodge basic human responsibility? How do these social standards affect the way we approach our lives when normalized from generation to generation?

[esperar]

My opinion is that it's better than the alternative. Don't agree with late term abortion at all though.

[Exactaking]

With the Child tax credit and welfare thesedays tied to having children, the poor have no incentive to get abortions. Either force birth control or get rid of subsidies that were put in place originally to help men afford to raise healthy future taxpayers. 53% of infants are on WIC, who's gonna pay social security?

[JimNortonFan]

If you had a family member that got sick and needed help because they were bedridden, what would you do? Let's say they were a huge pain in the neck and were draining you of resources.

Then one day you go into the bedroom and see that they have moved around on the bed so they are choking ot death. Do you help them or let them die?

Scenario 2: You have 1 sibling and stand to inherit. With the sibling it's a nice sum, without, you could retire or buy a business you always wanted.

Your sibling has a heart attack. Do you call 911?

Abortion is just murder for convenience.

The thing is, unwanted pregnancy makes kids who suffer neglect and abuse. It's a horrific commentary on parenting when abortion is the lesser of two evils for a society.

[Excelsior]

My thoughts are here.

My sympathies are generally pro-life, but the objective/practical analysis I've done leads me to see it as an evil that can, arguably, be necessary in some instances or justified as such. Some people just shouldn't be having kids, and abortion is a man-made means of facilitating natural selection against them.

[Beyond Borders]

(06-18-2013 06:35 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

My thoughts are here.

My sympathies are generally pro-life, but the objective/practical analysis I've done leads me to see it as an evil that can, arguably, be necessary in some instances or justified as such. Some people just shouldn't be having kids, and abortion is a man-made means of facilitating natural selection against them.

Great article.

This stood out to me though:

Quote:

If you find yourself not inclined to have children then, please, don’t have them. Get snipped or tie some tubes. As much as I hate abortion, even I’ll back it in support of the anti-child crowd remaining childless. Many of the dysfunctions we complain about in this society are caused by fucked-up sons and daughters who all too often are the product of just these kinds of relationships. We’re only doing ourselves a favor by reducing their number.

As you point out, there are alternatives to abortion and we all too often disregard them. Usually because we're worried we'll change our minds later. In other words, we're being selfish yet again and find it easier to destroy a fetus than possibly end our chances of having a child later should we change our minds.

Not to mention all the other ways to stop a baby from occurring.

I realize your article was only covering one aspect of abortion, so you haven't covered everything here, but nonetheless...If it wasn't for the widespread prevalence of the practice, we wouldn't see it as so morally acceptable that it was preferable to making ourselves infertile.

I need to hit up ROK more and catch more of your articles, by the way. Great stuff.

[Hotwheels]

Abortion has saved me great big stacks of cash.

[AntiTrace]

Thats a rough experience man.

I try not to preach what I do not practice. Because of that I do not feel it is right for me (or anyone else for that matter) make judgments of others that are placed in situations I haven't been put in yet.

I have never been in a situation that required me to seriously consider pro-life or pro-choice. However I tend to lean towards the pro-choice crowd. But I have no clue how I would react if the situation actually presented itself.

[j r]

I used to be fairly pro-life, because I thought that "life" began at conception. Then I realized that I do not believe in the existence of a soul. At that point my objections to early-term abortions faded away. Just because a fetus is alive and has the potential to become a human being, doesn't mean that it is a human being and deserving the protections that we afford human beings. Sperm is alive and contains the seeds to life, but jerking off isn't mass murder. In the first few months, a fetus is just a ball of cells. It has no consciousness, no self-awareness, and no ability to survive outside of the womb.

I am against late-term abortions.

[Tex Pro]

I don't see what is wrong with abortion. I guess a case could be made against allowing late-term abortions, but that is the only real case I would support.

I mean, even the morning-after pill is considered abortion by the pro-life crowd. No one is forcing these women to have abortions at gun point, so I don't see why people get so worked up over a personal decision that someone else makes. The pro-life groups strike me as being religiously motivated for the most part.

[Yano]

It depends on the situation and the girl that I knocked up.

If she is wife material, her family has money, and her mom is decent looking then I would consider whether to go through with an abortion.

Anything less than that and I won't consider it.

Your body makes millions and millions of soldiers. So you bang a chick, one of those soldiers reaches its destination, and you get an abortion. Big deal. Is that the last time you are having sex? Probably not.

There are plenty more soldiers and plenty more beautiful women than the one that you just impregnated.

Find a woman that meets your needs, and then let your soldier grow.

Here in China, there isn't much hate for abortions. In fact, a woman I know here wanted to have a baby and got pregnant. During her first month she was feeling dizzy so she went to the doctor to get an abortion.

Just like that.

[Excelsior]

(06-18-2013 07:47 AM)j r Wrote:  

I used to be fairly pro-life, because I thought that "life" began at conception. Then I realized that I do not believe in the existence of a soul. At that point my objections to early-term abortions faded away. Just because a fetus is alive and has the potential to become a human being, doesn't mean that it is a human being and deserving the protections that we afford human beings. Sperm is alive and contains the seeds to life, but jerking off isn't mass murder. In the first few months, a fetus is just a ball of cells. It has no consciousness, no self-awareness, and no ability to survive outside of the womb.

Here is one of the interesting sticking points in this debate: the status of the fetus. Is it a human or not?

My conclusion has been that the human life cycle does begin in the womb, with the human starting off as a fetus. Unless you can successfully contend that fetal stages are not a part of the human life cycle, then you've got to conclude that a fetus is, in fact, a human. There's no way around this.

What a fetus is not, however, is a person. That is evidenced by what jr says here:

Quote:

In the first few months, a fetus is just a ball of cells. It has no consciousness, no self-awareness, and no ability to survive outside of the womb.

One can lack all of those things and still be a human being. One cannot, however, satisfy most philosophical definitions of personhood without those qualities.

The biological humanity of the human fetus even at the earliest stages of pregnancy cannot be denied. Its personhood, however, can, and it is that particular denial that is most relevant to the abortion debate.

Quote:

Sperm is alive and contains the seeds to life, but jerking off isn't mass murder.

The above is a very typical counter to the "fetus is human" claim, but it falls short in that it creates a false dichotomy.
The human life cycle doesn't actually begin until sperm meets egg and begins the formation of a human life form, which develops into a human fetus and then into a fully grown human. You can't get a human life form without a united sperm and egg cell, which is why those cells along cannot be considered human life forms.

Sperm, like eggs, enjoy a status as a building block for human life, but cannot be considered human life themselves. A developing fetus (the product of a united sperm + egg cell and subsequent development thereafter) and a sperm cell ( a single cellular building block) are not in any way comparable.

[Beyond Borders]

(06-18-2013 09:15 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The biological humanity of the human fetus even at the earliest stages of pregnancy cannot be denied. Its personhood, however, can, and it is that particular denial that is most relevant to the abortion debate.

Ah, but therein lies one of the big problems. If you were to take a philisophical perspective to it, doesn't that depend on having a shared philosophy to begin with? Philosophies are very diverse, and while one person might accept the personhood premise and the idea that science (much of which is painfully incomplete) represents ultimate truth, another may not.

For instance, here's a question that's crossed my mind. I know a lot of guys on here are atheists, but just theoretically, can a person believe in God or a higher power of some sort AND rely on logical arguments to rationalize abortion? Even looking from an outside perspective and neutrally analyzing what their beliefs mean to them, could there be any consistency in such a scenario?

The arguments you've set forth make sense based on a certain morality, but based on other moralities they do not. That's one thing that makes reaching a consensus about abortion nearly impossible.

For many, the act is the ultimate moral crime, no matter the stage of development. Easy to call hogwash on such an idea, but then, you can rationalize that any sense of morality at all is meaningless by bringing nothing but logical debate to the table.

[Ensam]

For those of you who believe life begins at conceptions are you against IVF? Do you think we should investigate the causes of miscarriages the same way we would the death of an infant?

In the first trimester as many as 30% of pregnancies end spontaneously. If 30% of the population was dying regularly during any other stage of life it'd be a crisis. Then there's IVF. It's hard to get statistics but typically many more eggs are fertilized than implanted and of those implanted most abort. Even if the woman actually maintains the pregnancy often times if there are more than 3 viable fetuses the doctor will abort the extras. If you believe that life begins at conception than IVF is a far worse procedure than elective abortion, yet nobody makes that much of a stink about it.

[Samseau]

There is zero difference between abortion and infanticide. No one on the planet can draw a line between when personhood starts and ends.

Infanticide is wrong, but sometimes necessary.

[The Beast1]

My opinion really is slightly blue pill so judge me all you want because IDGAF.

I don't have to carry and birth it, it's the woman's responsibility and choice. I'm on the hook this time for my stupidity.

Not to mention, unwanted and unplanned children only add to the grief of an over populated world.

However, it just doesn't rest well on my conscience. I don't know why. In an ideal world, men would have their own birth control similar to the pill and so would a woman so we can have our cake and eat it too.

What sucks is, i've had a LTR with a girl where I had the pill fail... twice. Although, i blame this more on her for not being consistant with taking the damn thing. Either way, an abortion screws with a girl mentally.

Walking into a planned parenthood is by far one of the most ridiculous things ever. Solid 7s, 8s, and 9s all looking like they're ill to their stomach and there I walk in with my girl with a solid look of, "Mistakes were made" on my face, taking care of her the whole way.

Either way, just be careful with who you decide to impale. All it takes is one, "i'm keeping it" and you're on the hook for adding to the bastard child problem of America.

[scorpion]

I used to be totally pro-choice, but as I became more red pill I've surprisingly become pro-life. This is mostly due to the fact that I simply don't think it's healthy for society to allow women to run around nonchalantly killing their own offspring. Giving women the power of life and death over their own children simply as a matter of convenience can only be called barbaric.

Legalized abortion also contributes greatly to the feminist culture that absolves women of all responsibility and encourages them to behave like whores in their youth. Abortion allows women to escape the consequences of their careless actions, essentially subsidizing their reckless behavior. And as any economist can tell you, when you subsidize something, you get more of it.

And let's be clear, this is no ordinary subsidy. This is, as Samseau pointed out, essentially no different than infanticide. It is the murder of one's own child. How can we justify murder for convenience? Just to give women a free pass for their irresponsible behavior? This would be like if we absolved men of DUI manslaughter because as a society we valued the right of men to go out and get shitfaced at bars above the lives of other random motorists.

And frankly, I don't think it's possible for the average woman to have an abortion without accumulating some serious psychological damage. It's not natural for women to kill their own children, and despite the cultural propaganda telling them that it's ok I to do so, I doubt that most women can fully swallow that pill. I think that's a major reason that we have so many women on anti-depressants and with other mental/emotional problems these days.

If we prioritize the rights of careless, irresponsible young women over the very lives of the next generation, it not only says terrible things about us and our society, but ensures that our society will not be long for this earth.

[Veloce]

I've knocked up a few girls that got it aborted.

My view is: Good for me, bad for society.

[Beyond Borders]

(06-18-2013 11:55 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

I used to be totally pro-choice, but as I became more red pill I've surprisingly become pro-life. This is mostly due to the fact that I simply don't think it's healthy for society to allow women to run around nonchalantly killing their own offspring. Giving women the power of life and death over their own children simply as a matter of convenience can only be called barbaric.

Legalized abortion also contributes greatly to the feminist culture that absolves women of all responsibility and encourages them to behave like whores in their youth. Abortion allows women to escape the consequences of their careless actions, essentially subsidizing their reckless behavior. And as any economist can tell you, when you subsidize something, you get more of it.

And let's be clear, this is no ordinary subsidy. This is, as Samseau pointed out, essentially no different than infanticide. It is the murder of one's own child. How can we justify murder for convenience? Just to give women a free pass for their irresponsible behavior? This would be like if we absolved men of DUI manslaughter because as a society we valued the right of men to go out and get shitfaced at bars above the lives of other random motorists.

And frankly, I don't think it's possible for the average woman to have an abortion without accumulating some serious psychological damage. It's not natural for women to kill their own children, and despite the cultural propaganda telling them that it's ok I to do so, I doubt that most women can fully swallow that pill. I think that's a major reason that we have so many women on anti-depressants and with other mental/emotional problems these days.

If we prioritize the rights of careless, irresponsible young women over the very lives of the next generation, it not only says terrible things about us and our society, but ensures that our society will not be long for this earth.

Solid post. I agree with every single thing you've said here, and very well said to.

[Fitzgerald]

My Mom had three abortions before the age of 24. She was a hot small-town pastor's daughter, and her boyfriend had to drive her to Mexico to have them done. It was essentially a situation where he was leading her on with future commitment illusions but "now is not the time". It had severe psychological ramifications for her, which I believe were mostly a result of her fundamentalist Christian upbringing.

I used to be against abortion, but now I believe it is a valid choice. For one, I was involved in a pregnancy false-alarm, and was not willing to be a father because I was in no way financially or emotionally prepared for it. For two, plenty of other animal species will kill their own offspring AFTER birth if they feel that the babies are too weak or will not have a chance of survival. If a child will grow up poor and neglected to a single mother, trailer trash,or dumb teenagers, and likely end up in jail or as just another parasite living off of welfare, is that better than aborting them when they're just a clump of cells? Why should one person's mistake cost other people?

I think late term or partial birth abortions are pretty fucked up because at that point, the fetus is practically a person and can feel pain and distress. But, why in the hell would any woman wait that long before getting it done? Taking into account the first month or so when she may not be aware she's pregnant, do some really waffle for 8 months to make a decision?

[Samseau]

(06-18-2013 01:07 PM)Fitzgerald Wrote:  

I think late term or partial birth abortions are pretty fucked up because at that point, the fetus is practically a person and can feel pain and distress.

Here is some of the illogical hamsterism that surrounds Abortion. "It's okay to abort if it's just a clump of cells."

Bro, let me tell you something: We're all a clump of cells.

Let me tell you something else: If you took a newborn child, and left it in the woods to freeze overnight, the baby would not remember a thing. It would die in a few hours and as long as no one knew about it, then it would be the same as if the child never existed.

A baby has no working memory, nor does it feel as much pain as a fully grown human being. If you're okay with aborting a child at 2 weeks in, then you should be okay in aborting a baby right before it's born or right after it's born because there literally is no difference to the child.

[Wadsworth]

(06-18-2013 01:40 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-18-2013 01:07 PM)Fitzgerald Wrote:  

I think late term or partial birth abortions are pretty fucked up because at that point, the fetus is practically a person and can feel pain and distress.

Here is some of the illogical hamsterism that surrounds Abortion. "It's okay to abort if it's just a clump of cells."

Bro, let me tell you something: We're all a clump of cells.

Let me tell you something else: If you took a newborn child, and left it in the woods to freeze overnight, the baby would not remember a thing. It would die in a few hours and as long as no one knew about it, then it would be the same as if the child never existed.

A baby has no working memory, nor does it feel as much pain as a fully grown human being. If you're okay with aborting a child at 2 weeks in, then you should be okay in aborting a baby right before it's born or right after it's born because there literally is no difference to the child.

I normally find myself in agreement with you, but here I disagree. I think there is a difference between a 2 week clump of cells and a fetus at 7 months.

I think early term abortion is morally justifiable because I think the self determination of a woman is more valuable than whatever it is that's growing inside her.

I think late term abortion is morally indefensible because the rights of the highly developed life form are more valuable than the self determination and bodily autonomy of an irresponsible jackass female who waited until the 7th month to make a decision (particularly when she can still adopt or abandon) .

The only time I think late term abortion is justifiable is when the life of the mother is at stake, because I think the life of the adult female is worth more than the life of a baby.

Notably, if LPS becomes a reality, do you think they'll allow the man to wait until the 7th month to make a decision? Of course not, because we hold men to a standard of responsibility.

What I really think is that the "debate" surrounding late term abortion masks what the debate is truly about which is female responsibility. Late term abortion isn't contentious because of its moral value. It's contentious because it imputes responsibility onto Western females.

[The Pirate]

Been through two abortions, with two different woman... I didn`t feel to good about it but the alternative was so much worse that I don`t think about it anymore. I would do it again, especially with a western woman. I would feel better with the "I want to keep it" if it was an Asian...but that is because I have some issues about freedom and I feel extremely easily trapped in situations. The question for me in this situation is why destroy my life to save another? It`s egosentric as hell I know...but then again I have only this life and I am not very good at doing compromises on how to live it. I didn`t hurt noone, I just stopped it from growing to become a human being.

The 2 week clump of cells is comparable to the simplest lifeforms you have on the planet, and is not in any way comparable to a 7 month fetus, other than on a principal moral and ethical level.

[Wadsworth]

relevant: http://jezebel.com/bleak-bill-that-seeks...-514200988

[WanderingSoul]

Justifiable homicide.