[Ben Akiba]

What if I were to tell you that there's a safe, non-Anglophone place smack middle in the Europe where rent, food and drinks are cheap and awesome, where nature is beautiful, women are pretty, people are friendly, and vast majority of populace has no clue what feminism is?

I know a handful of members have posted info. and commented about their travels to Sarajevo, but there still seems to be lacking a larger general awareness among RVF community at large of how special Sarajevo currently is.

Because this will be a long, multiple post thread I just wanted to start with something here, so bear with me as I gather my data and thoughts to share.

This will accompany 'live' Boots on the ground: Sarajevo street talent thread.

For a more classical report go to the awesome Sarajevo Report by beta_plus. I read it twice looking for possible holes but found my experiences and insight matching 110% with it.

[thegmanifesto]

(05-09-2013 04:52 PM)Ben Akiba Wrote:  

What if I were to tell you that there's a safe, non-Anglophone place smack middle in the Europe where rent, food and drinks are cheap and awesome, where nature is beautiful, women are pretty, people are friendly, and vast majority of populace has no clue what feminism is?

I would say break down the costs of the place.

And I would ask you if you know a place that is similar with a beach.

[GameTheory]

is there a language that is similar to Serbo-Croatian that can be learned in its place ??? i.e. Slovak ???

[Ben Akiba]

The city:

Sarajevo has about 400k people, but most things happen in about three or so square miles. Really, for all practical purposes that's all there is to this city. From Alta shopping mall eastwards to the end of the old town. Bunch of square blocks and about four long streets running parallel to each other. So it's very livable. The central part is accessible by foot everywhere. Everything is a short walk away. For else there's an errant public transportation (trams, buses, mini-buses) and plenty of taxis that won't attempt to rape your wallet like they do in Russia. OK maybe they will try to stiff you by a couple of euro equivalents here and there, but maintain the experienced traveler frame and don't let them get away with it.

Architecture ranges from Turkish/Ottoman (old city), to Austro-Hungarian (city core), to Soviet-style socialist (new city). So it's really three cities for the price of one.

Practicalities:

Currency: Convertible Mark (KM) 1km = 0.50 euro. So whatever the price in km/divide by half and it will give you price in eu. (10 km = 5 euros).

Visas: Most western citizens don't need it for the stays of up to 90 days.

Air: Direct to Germany, Austria, Turkey, and other countries with large Bosnian expat pop. Connections to the rest of Europe.

Rail: Not very good. Slow. Barely functioning. Rare.

Buses: Go everywhere, but take forever even when speeding through ugly narrow roads, hairpin turns, treacherous mountain passes and what not. For adventurous types only.

People

Slavic/Islamic? Yeah, something like that.

Very social,

so circle penetration = key to getting somewhere.

Everyone smokes. Not only do they smoke, they savor it, do they really. It's an omnipresent smokers' paradise.

There are lots of young people attending tons of elementary and high schools and bunch of university faculties (state and private)

Lots of European tourists come nice weather time as well, however most of them stay one, two, three nights and off they go. No blame, the city seems small, and most things can be seen in two days. But where the beauty of Sarajevo resides is in the daily 'joy de vivre' Balkan-style. Think "who gives a fuck let's enjoy the hedonic to the fullest, it can get even worse tomorrow"-type of attitude.

Local men: Friendly, outgoing, love to party/drink/gamble (except for the minority who fully adhere to Islamic tenets), melancholic, sometimes broody, often stubborn, seldom nutty. Would rather watch an important soccer game than have sex. Resourceful. Been though a lot. Strong personalities. Lots of alphas/naturals.

Local women: All around darlings. Friendly. Outgoing, but somewhat reserved when the situation demands. Easy to deal with. Comparing to their other EE sisters, rather joyous experience. Love sex (will cheat if ignored).

Food:

Main Bosnian specialty are coffee and cigarettes. Seriously.

Great in the summer (flavorful seasonal fruits and veggies and herbies) lack of diversity/options in the winter.

Dishes are mostly local fares that are derivatives/leftovers from the Ottoman and central European eras/influences. Greasy. Carnivorous. Lacking full vegetarian restaurants (though there are some for tourists I think). Also lacking 'world cuisine'. No Thai, no Mexican, not even Chinese(?).

One McDonalds.

No Burger King.

No Pizza Hut (though there are plenty of Italian-style pizzerias)

No KFC.

No Taco Bell.

No Ruth's Chris Steakhouse, no PF Chang's, no Cheesecake Factory.

No Starbucks.

[AlbertoDelMuerto]

How does the average Bosnian women compare to Balkan women?

[Ben Akiba]

thegmanifesto Wrote:

And I would ask you if you know a place that is similar with a beach.

You may possibly be looking @Montenegro coast, but their prices are higher, towns are smaller, and locals' attitude may be too much to deal with. Difficult, but maybe doable.

[TheBulldozer]

I need to return to Sarajevo when it is not Ramadan.

I'd say the biggest reason right now it's so unpenetrated by The West is because it's a pain in the fuckin ass to get there.

Flight from anywhere? Expensive!
Bus from Split, Zagreb, Belgrade or Dubrovnik? I'll see you in eight hours.

As far as I know, there is no low cost airline to bring hoards of stag parties in.

[Ben Akiba]

MaleDefined Wrote:

I need to return to Sarajevo when it is not Ramadan.

I'd say the biggest reason right now it's so unpenetrated by The West is because it's a pain in the fuckin ass to get there.

Flight from anywhere? Expensive!
Bus from Split, Zagreb, Belgrade or Dubrovnik? I'll see you in eight hours.

As far as I know, there is no low cost airline to bring hoards of stag parties in.

So true, such pain in the ass getting there.

There won't be any stag parties for the foreseeable future due to particular ideological flavor being dispersed on the ground

And yet, the city is pretty secular in image and in substance, and remains rather affordable even in the midst of westernization. Which is where that great value is.

I will continue with lots more tomorrow.

[Laner]

I still keep in contact with a girl I hooked up with while there. Initially I was going to be there for 3 days, but after I met this girl and had some time in the city I changed that to be 2 weeks.

I loved the place. And I would describe it as Ben has already.

Although I would add that the overnight train from either Belgrade or Zagreb is the way to go. The sleepers were old and classy, the concierge was cool and helpful (drank rakja and smoked cigars with him) and the dining car had some decent talent. It is not ICE or Eurostar but it maintains a level of class still proud from the pre Balkan war era.

[Ben Akiba]

Culture:

Despite having a small segment of population that at best can be described as parochial, and local government that can be considered as anti-cutural, Sarajevo traditionally takes pride in its cultural offerings even if govt. money/budget for such things is nowadays slim at best. There are several cinema theaters, with I believe only one western-style multiplex, and one western-style independent cinema that offers indy fares for your non-mainstream Hollywood taste buds.



There is a strong tradition of live performances with several small to medium-sized theaters operating their full seasons of traditional and experimental plays, concerts and various other events all within a few city blocks of each other.



In the winter there's Sarajevo Winter, and in the summer there's Sarajevo Nights manifestations that last for several weeks and schedule additional cultural happenings around the city (usually some sort of outdoor concerts, performances or parties). These are budgeted/supported by the local government as a way to maintain some semblance of cultural activity.





In August there's also Sarajevo Film Festival (SFF), which is one of the most important in this part of Europe, and which often draws brand name Hollywood mainstream and indy figures.





The city also feels very full and busy during the time of the festival with plentiful of tanned locals and all sorts of foreigners intermingling around. So if you enjoy crowds this is the peak period.

And in September there's an international theatre festival called MESS.

All in all if you are a person who needs cultural stimulation, there is always something lively happening in Sarajevo, even if productions mostly seem smallish on the western scale.

[Ben Akiba]

(05-10-2013 03:19 AM)Laner Wrote:  

Although I would add that the overnight train from either Belgrade or Zagreb is the way to go.

To the best of my knowledge there are no more trains from or to Belgrade.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(05-10-2013 03:50 AM)Ben Akiba Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 03:19 AM)Laner Wrote:  

Although I would add that the overnight train from either Belgrade or Zagreb is the way to go.

To the best of my knowledge there are no more trains from or to Belgrade.

Yeah, there's been major budget-cutting. No more Budapest-Osijek-Sarajevo either. It's a damn shame that causes an even worse cascade effect.

[Ben Akiba]

(05-10-2013 03:54 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 03:50 AM)Ben Akiba Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 03:19 AM)Laner Wrote:  

Although I would add that the overnight train from either Belgrade or Zagreb is the way to go.

To the best of my knowledge there are no more trains from or to Belgrade.

Yeah, there's been major budget-cutting. No more Budapest-Osijek-Sarajevo either. It's a damn shame that causes an even worse cascade effect.

Which makes coming to Sarajevo even more difficult. Overland western travelers who initially planned on going from Budapest by train may now re-route to Zagreb, Belgrade, Bucharest, Kiev without bothering to check out Sarajevo. This is bad news for the idiots running the city, but good news for potential long-term western settlers. Paradise is only if there are no roadmaps to it.

[Prosal]

(05-10-2013 04:05 AM)Ben Akiba Wrote:  

Which makes coming to Sarajevo even more difficult.

Lufthansa seems to have flights to Sarajevo.

[chexmix]

Finding decent prices on Skyscanner.com

From Italy to Sarajevo I'm seeing $500 round trip....

[Ben Akiba]

Let me visualize for you some of the things I already mentioned:


Turkish/Ottoman (old city),


Austro-Hungarian (city core),


Soviet-style socialist (new city).


Convertible Mark (KM) 1km = 0.50 euro.

People: Slavic/Islamic? Yeah, something like that.

"The Bosniaks are a South Slavic ethnic group living mainly in Bosnia and Herzegovina along with a native minority present in other countries of the Balkan Peninsula; especially in the Sandzak region of Serbia and Montenegro (where Bosniaks form a regional majority), and in Croatia. Bosniaks are typically characterized by their historic tie to the Bosnian historical region, traditional adherence to Islam since the 15th and 16th centuries, common culture and Bosnian language. In the English-speaking world, Bosniaks are also frequently referred to as Bosnian Muslims or simply Bosnians,[26] though the latter is generally used to denote all inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina regardless of ethnic origin."


Everyone smokes. Not only do they smoke, they savor it, do they really.

"Smoking is rife in Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH), where the price of a pack of cigarettes is one of the lowest in Europe and Central Asia. The country ranks number 8 in the world in terms of smokers per capita and the percentage of adolescent smokers is steadily increasing. Almost half of the adult population smokes."


Lots of young people attending tons of elementary and high schools


and bunch of university faculties (state and private)

Lots of European tourists come nice weather time as well,


But these must be Americans


Daily 'joie de vivre' Balkan-style.

[Ben Akiba]

Where lives are lived slow.

And local men are friendly, outgoing, and love to


party



drink


gamble


except for the minority who fully adhere to Islamic tenets.


Would rather watch an important soccer game than have sex.


Local women: All around darlings. Friendly. Outgoing, artsy...


but somewhat reserved when the situation demands.

[Ben Akiba]

Main Bosnian specialty are coffee and cigarettes. Seriously.


Dishes are mostly local derivatives/leftovers from the Ottomans.


Flavorful seasonal fruits and veggies and herbies.


Lead to this.


But lack of diversity/options in the winter leads to this.


Greasy.


Carnivorous.


One McDonalds.

[bojangles]

one of my croatian girls recently went to Sarajevo from Zagreb via bus, the lads went to Sarajevo last year via train for 20 kuna i think

[Ben Akiba]

History/Economy/Politics/Society/Infrastructure/Standard of living:

History: From about mid-14th to about late-19th century Bosnia (one of the lands of south Slavs) was ruled by Ottoman (Turkish) Empire. That's a hell of a long time, and explains the presence of Islamic culture in this part of Europe. The socialist-communist regime of post-WW2 Yugoslavia attempted to ensure its own survival by keeping the lid on the people's dissent via promotion of inter-ethnic unity and relative personal liberty of its citizens. This explains rather secular orientation of its Muslim people today. The 1992-1995 war of independence from Yugoslavia saw Bosnia secede from that union (decision was contested), only to disintegrate into the bitter/bloody infighting between the armies and militias belonging to three main Bosnian ethnicities.

Economy: In a nutshell, unemployment is high and GDP is low. Most of the country, and its two entities, are kept functioning through various forms of international aid, different EU grants, IMF loans, Bosnian diaspora wiring cash to family members, as well as state and private investments by more adventurous investors, mostly from the nearby region as well as Germanic Europe and the middle east. Also, whenever one larger country disintegrates, a bunch of individuals and institutions closest to the power structures benefit enormously. These benefits then need to be partially put back into the society (usually via money laundering enterprises) so that the commoners see and experience the trickle-down effects for themselves, lest they think that all the suffering was for naught.

Politics: Since the 1995 internationally-brokered peace accord the country is split into two administratively largely self-managing entities (FBiH and RS). Almost like Cyprus, but not quite. BiH is one of the rare non-FSU European countries still not belonging neither to the European Union, nor NATO. And won't for a while. Which is all part of the charm.

Society: The country is full of corruption, political and familial connections are everything, even when it comes to getting a higher level service job. However, due to various EU watchdog initiatives all these are conducted relatively discreetly and are considered part of the deal by everyone spending lengthy times there. There's none of those public or extreme shakedowns common to FSU countries. So no great fuss about it is given. For most of the westerners, none of this is really a concern anyway.

Infrastructure: In Sarajevo pretty good/advanced. Outside of the city regular EE sights and settings are common. On average, much better than Ukraine and provincial Russia.

Standard of living: A bit of a paradox here. Most people complain about lack of money, yet the city streets and cafes are full to the brim with fashionable people, the shops are fully stocked with the latest things, and all the relative amenities of the western life are there by default, or are otherwise easily accessible.

[Ben Akiba]

Cafe society:

Sarajevo is well-known for its outdoor cafes which sometimes take up the entire streets


whether small,

   
or big.


or even parts of the street.



   

   

   

   
That dude riding a bike on a pedestrian street is the boss.

Whenever the weather permits, people of Sarajevo are reclaiming the streets for themselves.

   

   

[thegmanifesto]

There does seem to be a lot of young people out and about.

Are these taken during the weekend?

Or is it safe to say you could encounter these scenarios any day of the week?

[Ben Akiba]

(05-10-2013 10:16 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

There does seem to be a lot of young people out and about.

Are these taken during the weekend?

Or is it safe to say you could encounter these scenarios any day of the week?

Remember, lots of unem- or underemployed youth = plenty of free time. One of the beautiful things about Sarajevo (and Belgrade) is those busy streets, especially in warm weather, and a sense that social lives are to be lived at all times. I was amazed by the general busyness that isn't linked to any typical western task. Streets are full of people not because they are running work-related errands, but because they have nothing better to do than to socialize, see, and be seen. It's a unique culture certainly comparing it to the rest of Europe.

[Pierre]

Bosnia is nice, but I can't imagine how anyone would call it paradise. Sure, the prices are low, people are friendly, the girls are hot by global standards.

But I can tell you, the Balkans is hard work for getting your end wet, and Bosnia is even harder, why?, a large Muslim population.

Also, people in Sarajevo may not have any idea what Feminism is, but Bosnian women are definitely not feminine - shouting, smoking like chimneys, aggressive behaviour, manky teeth.

In addition the competition is fierce, big burly handsome guys that have nothing to do but workout and eat 10 piece Cevapcicis all day, whilst living at home with their mothers.

In terms of getting laid, Bosnia is way down the scale. The prices are the same in many Ukrainian cities for example, but in Ukraine the competition is barely above zero, and feminism is off the scale

[Ben Akiba]

I cross-checked Roosh's 15 Factors That Determine If A City Is Great For Men to Sarajevo and here are my results:

1. Total Population.

Sarajevo has just under 400k, but over 500k if one includes the population of Sarajevo Canton, so being so close either way, I'll give it neutral, neither plus nor minus.


2. Demographics.

About equal overall, but surprisingly more younger males, so will give it a neg. there.

Minus.


3. City Vs Suburb Density.

Even though in the outlying areas of Sarajevo officially reside more people, everyone still meets, works, studies or otherwise spends their daily lives in the city core making it dense with opportunities and ease of logistics.

Plus.


4. Nightlife Blueprint.

Much like the line above, most hangouts are entirely in the city core.

Plus.


5. Local Economy.

The city is ideally just a "little bit" poor. (I love that expression, slick thinking!)

Plus.


6. Adoption Of Feminism.

Hehe...

Plus.


7. iPhone Penetration.

Most phones in majority of girls are basic models, not latest smartphones.

Plus.


8. Level Of Male Aggressiveness And Game.

Many naturals, but otherwise very little aggressiveness or game.

Plus.


9. Depth Of Social Connections.

Social circles very important, however people are most friendly and welcoming in all of former Yugoslavia, so any acquaintances and friendships are easily struck up. Still, in the interest of fairness I'll give it a

Minus.


10. Western Culture Omnipresence.

Plus.


11. English Penetration.

Not everyone speaks, but enough do. For gaming purposes local language not required.

Plus.


12. Cost Of Living.

The cheapest capital in Europe. OK, maybe Tirana is cheaper, but is not nearly as good.

Plus.


13. Hipster Culture Adoption Rates.

Say what!?

Plus.


14. Major Universities Per Capita.

Lots of uni. students.

Plus.


15. Crime Level.

Non-factor.

Plus.


Overall:

13 pluses, 1 minus, 1 neutral.