[Gopnik]

I passed the ТРКИ 2 (B2) test a couple of years ago. The hardest part was the writing, where you had to learn formal vocab for a complaint letter and some other stuff that's probably not super useful. For the grammar, you just have to take many tests and see what your weak points are. At a b2 level they already expect you to get your cases right 90% of the time in writing and they also target more complex things like subtle differences in the use of verbal aspect.

For vocab, your best best is to read proper books as soon as you can, even if it takes frequent word checking. Listening to some podcasts or youtube video audios is also very useful. I wrote more about this in this post:

thread-22856...pid1555550

At the end of the day though, the only shortcut to fluency is to live/spend a lot of time in a Russian speaking country.

If you live around Russian speakers I'd estimate you can go from absolute beginner to fluent in around 2 years.

[Shemp]

@Gopnik: ТРКИ-2 is much harder than ТРКИ-1, I can see from those sample tests I linked to. But in regards to the writing, I had some questions. Do they expect handwritten cursive Cyrillic? Do they nitpick the formation of cursive? Can you use cursive but separate the letters versus connecting them? Do you have to use correct uppercase cursive or just bigger versions of lowercase, for letters with slightly different official uppercase and lowercase cursive?

I never ever write handwritten Russian, so this would be something I'd have to learn specifically for the test. I'm not too worried about grammar or vocabulary in the writing part of the ТРКИ-1 test, since I frequently write emails in Russian using my smartphone. (Though my spelling might need some work, since the smartphone has a spell checker.)

[Ceasar]

A lot of guys have great suggestions for Russian learning resources.

However, as a guy who has learned several languages, including Russian fluently, let me say this. The gold standard will always be 1-on-1 language lessons in which you do everything, from your first lesson, in Russian only, and practice speaking and listening to live Russian (date Russians who speak no english, live in Russia, hang out with Russian friends, etc.). Spending time reading textbooks, listening to youtube videos, and watching movies are good to do if you're in a situation where you can't have a 1-on-1 language lesson -- i.e., you're commuting somewhere, or it's 11pm and you want to watch something before bed, or you want to listen to Russian while at the gym. I would spend close to 0% of my unrestricted study time on that other stuff though. You do 2-3 live lessons a week, and each month you'll notice improvement.

[Gopnik]

(10-20-2018 10:01 AM)Shemp Wrote:  

@Gopnik: ТРКИ-2 is much harder than ТРКИ-1, I can see from those sample tests I linked to. But in regards to the writing, I had some questions. Do they expect handwritten cursive Cyrillic? Do they nitpick the formation of cursive? Can you use cursive but separate the letters versus connecting them? Do you have to use correct uppercase cursive or just bigger versions of lowercase, for letters with slightly different official uppercase and lowercase cursive?

I never ever write handwritten Russian, so this would be something I'd have to learn specifically for the test. I'm not too worried about grammar or vocabulary in the writing part of the ТРКИ-1 test, since I frequently write emails in Russian using my smartphone. (Though my spelling might need some work, since the smartphone has a spell checker.)

I'm not sure whether they expect it or not but I would just learn anyways as it will also allow you to understand natives when they handwrite something as well as different cursive scripts you might come across. It takes a while to get used to but it's not that hard. It also allows you to write faster, I can't imagine having to write the letters ж or д the way they look on a keyboard as opposed to the cursive version which is more simple.

[Shemp]

I have no problems learning cursive and actually already know it, but I separate the letters (I also separate cursive letters in English nowadays, since otherwise my handwriting is illegible even to me) and just make little cursive б bigger rather than using the correct cursive uppercase Б, for example. I guess I can ask the language school these questions when I get there.

Completely disagree regarding 1-on-1 being necessary or even a good idea for everyone. Pronunciation is first priority and that might require 1-on-1 work if you screw it up initially and then have to correct it. Starting with Pimsleur is a good way to avoid screwing up pronunciation. Russian pronunciation should not be difficult for native English speakers, other than the rolled R, which just takes practice since we can hear it fine, we just have trouble initially producing it. Compare with languages where we can't even hear the sounds because we lack early childhood exposure, and so will never be able to produce those sounds properly.

After pronunciation comes motivation. 1-on-1 lessons would kill my motivation. Maybe they help yours.

Read that word brain article I linked to for what neuroscience teaches about language learning. It's mostly about vocabulary. 1-on-1 is NOT most effective in terms of time for learning vocabulary. What is effective is spaced repetition flashcard systems, like Anki, but those kill my motivation, which is why I didn't bother initially, though I am using am Anki deck now.

[Shemp]

Another way to know what really works with language learning and what doesn't is to just look at patterns of success and failure:

* Many poorly motivated immigrants, immersed in various European countries and given obligatory one-on-one language lessons in exchange for government handouts, never learn anything.

* Many weakly motivated Mexican immigrants immersed in the United States never learn English, and many weakly motivated American retirees immersed in Mexico and British retirees immersed in Spain never learn Spanish.

* Many highly motivated young people in Eastern Europe speak excellent English, despite lacking native language teachers and despite lack of one-on-one instruction.

* Highly motivated career military and foreign service tend to be very successful at learning all sorts of foreign languages, using old-fashioned classroom instruction supplemented by modern technology (smartphones, etc) on their own time.

* Older people in Eastern Europe who speak English at a high level in terms of vocabulary and grammar, usually have thick accents, sometimes so thick as to be impossible for me to understand, whereas young people in those same countries, who speak at a similar level of English, often have near perfect American pronunciation.

Conclusions: Because of the internet and satellite television, it is now possible to get access to unlimited amounts of native language podcasts and videos for all major languages, and this is sufficient to develop good pronunciation. In the past, immersion or one-on-one instruction with native speakers was necessary for good pronunciation.

Motivation is what really counts, not one-on-one instruction or immersion or other aspects of methodology. Best motivation occurs when learning language is key to career or other financial success. Military and foreign service officers and overseas journalists tend to have very high motivation. Those who lack strong career/financial motivation need to find some way to make the learning process enjoyable and avoid anything that makes the process unpleasant. In particular, yelling internally at oneself "Get off your lazy ass and study Russian, you miserable slob!", which might work for someone who has hopes for a foreign service career, is probably a bad idea for someone whose main reason for learning Russian is to make it slightly easily to meet girls and otherwise get along during stays in Ukraine (the situation of yours truly).

If immersion or one-on-one instruction motivates you, they are good ideas, but they are not necessary and are bad ideas if they reduce motivation in any way. For me, rigorous schedule implied by one-on-one instruction (having to get into video chat at precise time each day) would absolutely kill motivation. Immersion is nice, I do enjoy my time in Ukraine after all, but I don't think it does much by itself to improve my Russian. For various reasons, the girls I meet speak passable English when I met them and they want to improve their English, so we mostly speak English, though occasionally they lapse into Russian when at a loss for words.

[Ceasar]

Sorry to write this bro, but I can't disagree with you anymore than what you wrote.

Alternatives to practicing speaking on a one-on-one lessons with a native speaker are:

(1) you go through a textbook yourself. This is a pathway to poor pronunciation. Much better to go through a textbook with a tutor if you can, who you then practice making new sentences with the grammar textbook with.

(2) instead of one-on-one lessons, you have lessons with a native speaker joint with other people who are learning. This is cheaper and I've done a lot of these. The problem is you don't get the individualized attention, and instead of doing 60-70% of the talking (as I recommend), you'll get to do 15% of the talking. And then you have to listen to people speak Russian with bad accents, which may be even be counter-productive. Sitting in a college class with 30 people can be helpful, but I've found you waste a lot of time and will barely get to practice speaking. This doesn't seem like a seriously preferable option, unless you are cash-strapped.

(3) Pimsleur is good for pronunciation and for learning some basic vocabulary. But, while it helped me to memorize phrases and improved my pronunciation, it did not lead to very good conversational results. I just got good at repeating certain phrases. I recommend doing this while at the gym, jogging, or while commuting as a supplement, however.

(4) Other gimmicky stuff/reading/watching youtube videos/movies/doing grammar exercises. Fine to do these things, but the problem again is that you are not spending time speaking. If you practice doing grammar exercises, or using flash cards to memorize grammar, you will get better at doing grammar exercises and memorizing words, but these will not translate directly into more fluent Russian conversational skills. What's more, when you are practicing speaking with a tutor, you will be learning grammar and vocabulary as they arise in natural conversation.

(5) you do a homestay/have a girlfriend who speaks no english/live in the country and are thus exposed. These are not one-on-one lessons, but I fully believe you should do these things too! A homestay even better. But that's like doing a 24-hour one-on-one lesson where you are full exposed all day long.

The data you cited that one-on-one lessons don't get results you pulled out of your ass bro. It did not happen that immigrants were "forced" to take one-on-one lessons against their will (and, only allowed to use the language they were learning, and forced to do most of the speaking), but if it did, the problem was that they had no desire to learn a local language, not with the methodology.

(10-20-2018 12:18 PM)Shemp Wrote:  

I have no problems learning cursive and actually already know it, but I separate the letters (I also separate cursive letters in English nowadays, since otherwise my handwriting is illegible even to me) and just make little cursive б bigger rather than using the correct cursive uppercase Б, for example. I guess I can ask the language school these questions when I get there.

Completely disagree regarding 1-on-1 being necessary or even a good idea for everyone. Pronunciation is first priority and that might require 1-on-1 work if you screw it up initially and then have to correct it. Starting with Pimsleur is a good way to avoid screwing up pronunciation. Russian pronunciation should not be difficult for native English speakers, other than the rolled R, which just takes practice since we can hear it fine, we just have trouble initially producing it. Compare with languages where we can't even hear the sounds because we lack early childhood exposure, and so will never be able to produce those sounds properly.

After pronunciation comes motivation. 1-on-1 lessons would kill my motivation. Maybe they help yours.

Read that word brain article I linked to for what neuroscience teaches about language learning. It's mostly about vocabulary. 1-on-1 is NOT most effective in terms of time for learning vocabulary. What is effective is spaced repetition flashcard systems, like Anki, but those kill my motivation, which is why I didn't bother initially, though I am using am Anki deck now.

[Ceasar]

(10-21-2018 03:57 AM)Shemp Wrote:  

* Many poorly motivated immigrants, immersed in various European countries and given obligatory one-on-one language lessons in exchange for government handouts, never learn anything.

Migrants forced to do one-on-one lessons? And did not improve? Post where you found this information, or you made it up.

Second issue is that -- were they forced to speak only in the language they were learning? And do most of the talking? If someone just has to turn up at a class to get a handout, and they don't learn anything, does that really mean the manner of instruction was bad?

[Shemp]

My most recent source is two Dutch guys bitching about asylum immigrants. Immigrants are given housing and other benefits but have to attend language training in exchange. The problem is they really want to learn only English and not Dutch. They fail at the group classes so then are given one-on-one. If they continue failing, they can get labeled learning disabled and then are exempt from the requirement. Could be false story, though I've heard similar rumors for years. Similar problem with kids everywhere forced to take language classes they don't want. Lack of motivation is a killer. That was my point.

At the other extreme, you have missionaries in centuries past who supposedly managed to learn languages simply by reading a dual language Bible. Strong motivation will overcome all sorts of obstacles.

The main problem with your one-on-one idea is time. Learning a language like Russian is a long term proposition. USA State Department estimates 1100 classroom hours for highly motivated students with above average language learning ability to become "proficient"' at Russian. No telling how much these highly motivated students supplement that 1100 classroom hours with self-study, give that their future career depends on success. If you have one-on-one 20 hours/week, it will take over a year to get to 1100 hours. And that 20 hours/week plus homework is essentially a full time job. If 5 hours/week, then it can be done in the evening, but now it controls your schedule for like 4 years without a break, because you can't easily delay like with self-study. If you can't learn on your own, then you have no choice but to use one-on-one or classes. But modern technology, especially massive availability of native speaker audio, makes self-study an alternative where it wasn't a fully satisfactory alternative previously.

You certainly don't need another person to speak. There are Anki decks with like 86000 sentences. Anki displays English, you translate and speak Russian. Then you press and Anki displays its Russian version so you can compare. Plenty of speech practice possibility there. I previously gave the link for a smaller Anki deck with Russian audio, though that is machine generated audio. For beginners, something like Pimsleur would be better.

BTW if you were able to get through the entire 120 unit Pimsleur Russian course while simultaneously doing other things, you are well above average at language learning. Many people have great difficulty with each new lesson at some point, so that they would need 100% concentration.

Obviously, if you can't reproduce what you hear, you'll have problems with self-study, but Russian pronunciation is simply not that difficult for native English speakers. If you can hear it, you can say it. Listening to podcasts will give plenty practice with listening comprehension.

[Ceasar]

^I think this says more about the fact that learning Dutch is not that useful of a language for an immigrant, especially compared with English, rather than an anecdote revealing how one-on-one lessons are inherently a waste of time. Everyone in the Netherlands also speak English, while foreigners there don't speak Dutch. If I moved there I wouldn't waste time learning Dutch either.

[Shemp]

Well, I picked that anecdote from memory just to illustrate my point about importance of motivation, same as the anecdote about missionaries.

I never said or thought that one-on-one is useless, but it is by no means the "gold standard". For beginners, one-on-one is expensive, inconvenient and slow compared to something like Pimsleur. The main advantage is that a good one-on-one teacher can catch bad pronunciation habits early, before they become ingrained, whereas Pimsleur can't. However, if you use Pimsleur properly, making an effort to exactly imitate the Russian voices, this should not be a problem for native English speakers learning Russian. Rolled R will eventually come naturally, same as with Spanish. Difference between soft and hard L is of little mportance: native Russian speakers will understand you even if you pronounce all L sounds the same. Likewise for other fine points of Russian pronunciation.

Another possible advantage of one-on-one lessons, FOR SOME PEOPLE, is motivation. Some people react strongly and positively to personal attention. Other people find one-on-one lessons highly demotivating because of the inconvenience factor. Motivation is critical, so know which group you belong to and act accordingly.

The reason I jumped on that "one-on-one is the gold standard" assertion is that I keep hearing it or something similar from people who are clearly failing to learn effectively (not referring to anyone in this thread, rather to people in real life). For example, I encountered students at my Spanish language school in Antigua, Guatemala, receiving one-on-one instruction and making little progress. Problem was that a person can only learn so much new language per day and they were starting from nothing, hence had nothing to converse with. Had they done 120 Pimsleur Spanish lessons, plus built a good vocabulary using flashcards, prior to arriving at the school, they would have been in position to practice using that vocabulary in active conversation, and thus make rapid progress. I made rapid progress myself because I was at C1 or higher level for reading Spanish and B2 for listening comprehension, and all I needed was help making my strong passive skills active. One-on-one lessons are great for that. I did the same with Russian a few years ago, but was only at A2 level then (limited vocabulary and grammar), which is too early. Better to wait until passive skills at least B1.

I also keep hearing "immersion is what really works" or similar, again from people whose results are not impressive. For example, I frequently encounter Mexican immigrants in the USA who want to learn English, and American retirees to Mexico and British retirees to Spain who want to learn Spanish, in all cases not making much progress. In internet forums like this, I frequently encounter guys living part or full-time for years in Russia or Ukraine, sometimes even married to a Russian speaker, who still don't speak much Russian.

Sometimes I ask those wanting to learn Russian/Spanish if they've tried Pimsleur. Answer is invariably no. But often they have taken classes or one-on-one lessons and they are immersed in a Russian/Spanish speaking country, so what's the problem? Dithering around. Classes/lessons infrequent, they get tired of being unable to express themselves in Russian/Spanish and so revert to English, teacher/girlfriend doesn't want to offend paying students/boyfriend and so accommodates them, they never do hard stuff like Anki flashcards, etc. Immersion alone is no panacea.

I don't work for Pimsleur or Assimil and don't get any commission on sales. Maybe other courses work better. For people who thrive on personal attention, one-on-one might work better, at much higher cost in time and money. I used Pimsleur and Assimil myself to learn basic Russian and they worked very well for me. I chose them because they were the courses most consistently recommended by people who seemed to know what they were talking about with regards to language learning. These courses together will only get you to about A2 level. Lots of ways to progress from there.

Anyway, I needed 5 posts to send PMs and I didn't want to post junk, so I decided to post on a topic where I had something worthwhile to contribute, and my original posts earlier did include lots of links that people might find useful. но, хватит на сейчас, успеха к всем с русским.

[peterfoo22]

(10-20-2018 05:39 AM)Gopnik Wrote:  

I passed the ТРКИ 2 (B2) test a couple of years ago. The hardest part was the writing, where you had to learn formal vocab for a complaint letter and some other stuff that's probably not super useful. For the grammar, you just have to take many tests and see what your weak points are. At a b2 level they already expect you to get your cases right 90% of the time in writing and they also target more complex things like subtle differences in the use of verbal aspect.

For vocab, your best best is to read proper books as soon as you can, even if it takes frequent word checking. Listening to some podcasts or youtube video audios is also very useful. I wrote more about this in this post:

thread-22856...pid1555550

At the end of the day though, the only shortcut to fluency is to live/spend a lot of time in a Russian speaking country.

If you live around Russian speakers I'd estimate you can go from absolute beginner to fluent in around 2 years.

I like the do the reading in Russian and listen in English. So as I don't have to stop every few minutes to the check word.

For reason this method works, not only is putting the words into context but also just getting straight repetition. It does not help with the formal aspect of grammar though as it moves so fast when you trying to read and listen at the same time.

[WannaBang]

I am determined to reach B2 level in Russian but I am not sure what the most productive (and free) way to go about it is.

So far I completed all 3 Pimsleur units as well as Michel Thomas (didn't do advanced one though). My plan of attack is:

- Duolingo (30-60 min/day)
- Memrise (30-60 min/day)
- RussianWorld youtube series - one 30 minute lesson a day
- Real Russian Club lesson youtube series (1 hour but split into 30 minute blocks)

I am hoping once I complete all of these I can then go to Ukraine/Belarus or Russia and start immersing myself as well as possibly doing some group course.

[JimBobsCooters]

(11-08-2018 07:03 AM)WannaBang Wrote:  

I am determined to reach B2 level in Russian but I am not sure what the most productive (and free) way to go about it is.

So far I completed all 3 Pimsleur units as well as Michel Thomas (didn't do advanced one though). My plan of attack is:

- Duolingo (30-60 min/day)
- Memrise (30-60 min/day)
- RussianWorld youtube series - one 30 minute lesson a day
- Real Russian Club lesson youtube series (1 hour but split into 30 minute blocks)

I am hoping once I complete all of these I can then go to Ukraine/Belarus or Russia and start immersing myself as well as possibly doing some group course.

Get yourself a grammar book, the New Penguin one is good from experience but most are pretty similar. Realistically knowing the grammar rules back to front makes things a lot easier and is a strong foundation.

Getting an anki set can really help as well for extending your vocabulary. Then just practice, if you can find someone to talk to that's a really strong option as they can really help the pronunciation (which I find brutal, Aussie accent does not help!) and things that just don't sound right.

[WannaBang]

Thanks Jim!

I used to use ANKI all the time when I was learning Polish (makes grammar a lot easier to learn!). I was using the 'Fluentforever' guide which involves you harvesting images from google images. However, it seems googleimages has changed so the pictures do not have captions anymore which makes it hard to know if the word you are googling is an accurate link to the photo it is attached to.

Of course that is all assuming you buy into Gabriel Wyner's assertion that anki is only useful if you learn words by linking images to words.

I guess what you are suggesting is downloading a 'deck' of Russian words/grammar for ANKI? And presumably add to it as you learn new vocab during your journey?

[JimBobsCooters]

(11-08-2018 08:36 AM)WannaBang Wrote:  

Thanks Jim!

I used to use ANKI all the time when I was learning Polish (makes grammar a lot easier to learn!). I was using the 'Fluentforever' guide which involves you harvesting images from google images. However, it seems googleimages has changed so the pictures do not have captions anymore which makes it hard to know if the word you are googling is an accurate link to the photo it is attached to.

Of course that is all assuming you buy into Gabriel Wyner's assertion that anki is only useful if you learn words by linking images to words.

I guess what you are suggesting is downloading a 'deck' of Russian words/grammar for ANKI? And presumably add to it as you learn new vocab during your journey?

Yeah, I actually did the same as the fluentforever and made my own for Spanish and actually found the creation process was a pretty good way of learning in itself. Russian I downloaded a pre-created pack and jumped in, if you find it an effective way to learn then it's a powerful tool and it's free (especially if you're android/PC based).

Just an extra tool you can add in to the box.

[Lermontov]

(11-08-2018 07:47 AM)JimBobsCooters Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 07:03 AM)WannaBang Wrote:  

I am determined to reach B2 level in Russian but I am not sure what the most productive (and free) way to go about it is.

So far I completed all 3 Pimsleur units as well as Michel Thomas (didn't do advanced one though). My plan of attack is:

- Duolingo (30-60 min/day)
- Memrise (30-60 min/day)
- RussianWorld youtube series - one 30 minute lesson a day
- Real Russian Club lesson youtube series (1 hour but split into 30 minute blocks)

I am hoping once I complete all of these I can then go to Ukraine/Belarus or Russia and start immersing myself as well as possibly doing some group course.

Get yourself a grammar book, the New Penguin one is good from experience but most are pretty similar. Realistically knowing the grammar rules back to front makes things a lot easier and is a strong foundation.

...

I definitely agree with that. Some posters here think that it's not necessary to spend much time on formal grammar when learning a slavic language but in my experience it really simplified the whole language once I spent a lot of time doing grammar exercises and reading grammar explanations. It especially made building sentences much easier when speaking.

I'd personnally add a 15-20 minutes of grammar to that daily routine. It would accelerate all the learning process IMO.

My favorite book was : Schaum's Outline of Russian Grammar, Second Edition

[Bikal]

(11-08-2018 07:03 AM)WannaBang Wrote:  

I am determined to reach B2 level in Russian but I am not sure what the most productive (and free) way to go about it is.

So far I completed all 3 Pimsleur units as well as Michel Thomas (didn't do advanced one though). My plan of attack is:

- Duolingo (30-60 min/day)
- Memrise (30-60 min/day)
- RussianWorld youtube series - one 30 minute lesson a day
- Real Russian Club lesson youtube series (1 hour but split into 30 minute blocks)

I am hoping once I complete all of these I can then go to Ukraine/Belarus or Russia and start immersing myself as well as possibly doing some group course.

Personally I found Duolingo to be an annoying waste of time, I'd replace Duo with the New Penguin Russian course but keep Memrise, Russian World and add in Russian news programmes.

I would also recommend a Russian course sooner rather than later, self-study is great but if you can talk to a native (presuming the teacher is native) and learn from them, do it, it'll help immensely.

[surbhi786]

hii

[jacknap]

(04-14-2013 06:51 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

I've been tackling this language in a half-assed way. I did all three units of Pimsleur and a couple hundred notecards. Then I got a notch using Russian (I'm still not sure how I pulled that off). After that? I slacked off. I only became proficient in tourist Russian. My Russian was actually just as good as when I arrived in Ukraine than when I left.

I took three detours since then: about 100 hours with Polish, 15 hours with French, and 20 hours refreshing my Spanish. But now, one year after Ukraine, it's clear to me: the language of my future is Russian. For feminine women and for adventure, for a man who wants to be challenged to the point of failure and who wants to earn his salt, this is the mountain to climb. I have delayed and procrastinated, I have rationalized and doubted, but now I am certain: I will become proficient in this language. It must be done.

Aren't the eventually going to just degrade into what Western Women become within the next 5-20 years? It's largely what happens to women I think when they get power/money. Not necessarily that Russian women are genetically better than Western, but rather just the current container they are in (culturally, economically, etc) makes them preferable to a masculine man today.

You can sedate a predator for a zoo but it's natural instincts will come out given the right circumstances and growing freedom/power for women will see them keep taking similar actions to what Western women are doing.

So I guess travel is a good hack for now but male thirst is just sooo much more powerful than female thirst so eventually the hoards of men will burn down any sort of advantage I think. Men die in wars, take dangerous jobs, work 80 hour work weeks in hopes of securing a great woman. Getting a visa to a country with a more favourable sexual market is a walk in the park compared to the aforementioned.

[Shemp]

FSU women already have freedom and power, what they lack is money, and the future in that regard is going to look like the present for a very long time, far more than 20 years. That is, most average FSU women are never going to be rich enough to dispense with men. If you are playing clown game, you are already getting bad results in FSU unless you are focusing on the small number of rich party girls who can afford to behave like western sluts. If you are playing provider game with average girls, you should be able to continue that for decades to come. Knowledge of Russian allows you access to the poorest tier of FSU girls, meaning you don't need to be very rich yourself to be a desirable provider.

The above logic also applies to Latin America and SEA. Arbitraging between high western wages and low prices in less developed countries is only going to stop working for countries able to develop to a western standard of living, as South Korea did. I don't see that happening in second tier FSU, Latin America or SEA.

More probable is that average wages in western countries sink to the level of these less developed regions, in which case provider game will start working again in western countries. But you would need to be top 10% of income in that case.

Which brings us to the conclusion. Focus on money first, so you can play provider game. Then, if you have spare time and effort, learn Russian so you can access poor girls in second tier cities and make your money go farther. Russian without money is not worth much.

[Polniy_Sostav]

(10-20-2018 10:50 AM)Ceasar Wrote:  

A lot of guys have great suggestions for Russian learning resources.

However, as a guy who has learned several languages, including Russian fluently, let me say this. The gold standard will always be 1-on-1 language lessons in which you do everything, from your first lesson, in Russian only, and practice speaking and listening to live Russian (date Russians who speak no english, live in Russia, hang out with Russian friends, etc.). Spending time reading textbooks, listening to youtube videos, and watching movies are good to do if you're in a situation where you can't have a 1-on-1 language lesson -- i.e., you're commuting somewhere, or it's 11pm and you want to watch something before bed, or you want to listen to Russian while at the gym. I would spend close to 0% of my unrestricted study time on that other stuff though. You do 2-3 live lessons a week, and each month you'll notice improvement.

I think not everyone works the same way. Having a teacher sopeaking only in Russian is counter productive. When I make mistakes and when i learn , I don't want to repeat like a robot. I want to understand why this tense and why this word is used . I want someone to explain the grammatical role of the words. And this cannot be done in Russian.

Of course sometimes you have to swallow your pride and just repeat stuff. There are plenty of stuff I repeat like a parrot in Russian even if deep inside me , I don't understand why. I do this to get easy and sound like I am close to a native.
But when I understand what I am learning , it gives me the capacity to understand things that I don't understand and the ability to make my own sentences , or at least risk it , and we alll know how rewarding it is when you try a new sentence/expression and people are surprised at how good you talk.

In my opinion there are 3 ways to learn really well

1) In your native language with a self-learning book . I use assimil method in French and it's bang on. You can complement it on forums in your own native language or here - asking questions about grammar or things that are unclear. This is the "boring" part and you don't need an app.

2) Watch films (once you reach a good level) with someone next to you who can translate stuff that you don't get. I personally would understand 60% of the dialogues of an average action film , and from time to time i would ask my wife to translate when she is next to me so i can keep up with the story. I then always try to re-use these words/verbs the next day with other russian speakers.

3) I am very much into writing to girls who cannot speak English. If a girl only speak Russian , find some online (she even can be fat). With a bit of experience , you will see those who speak "bad" and those who speak "clear". The careful ones will never use slang and will always try to speak in a comprehensive manner , just notice the patterns and try to understand them and reuse them. Writing russian 1 hour every 2-3 days will make you feel more secure. Talking can only be done one on one anyway.

Of course nothing beats the "I have to talk for 2 weeks in this language because I have to survive". Unsurprisingly I find myself able to speak Russian with great enthusiasm when I take a coffee with a girl who cannot speak a word of another language.

[Polniy_Sostav]

(10-20-2018 11:37 AM)Gopnik Wrote:  

(10-20-2018 10:01 AM)Shemp Wrote:  

@Gopnik: ТРКИ-2 is much harder than ТРКИ-1, I can see from those sample tests I linked to. But in regards to the writing, I had some questions. Do they expect handwritten cursive Cyrillic? Do they nitpick the formation of cursive? Can you use cursive but separate the letters versus connecting them? Do you have to use correct uppercase cursive or just bigger versions of lowercase, for letters with slightly different official uppercase and lowercase cursive?

I never ever write handwritten Russian, so this would be something I'd have to learn specifically for the test. I'm not too worried about grammar or vocabulary in the writing part of the ТРКИ-1 test, since I frequently write emails in Russian using my smartphone. (Though my spelling might need some work, since the smartphone has a spell checker.)

I'm not sure whether they expect it or not but I would just learn anyways as it will also allow you to understand natives when they handwrite something as well as different cursive scripts you might come across. It takes a while to get used to but it's not that hard. It also allows you to write faster, I can't imagine having to write the letters ж or д the way they look on a keyboard as opposed to the cursive version which is more simple.

The main issue with this , is that I had to use computer to type even when I was working in Russian. IT is very rare apart from reading that you would actually write a letter to someone. And this is a problem , it is not natural to write a "d" when you want to write a "g" . I find cursive handwriting one of the hardest thing in Russian , maybe because I have never had proper help in it , but it s super confusing.

[Ceasar]

^^Going "Russian only" is an ideal. Of course, occasionally you might need explanations in English. But when I learned Japanese at a language school where English was banned, what happened is that my fluency in Japanese improved day-by-day. They had methods to teach people with zero Japanese. Even then, a few times I did get an explanation of something in English. But, what I also learned is that if you have lessons which mostly consist of someone explaining grammar to you in English is that, while it may seem beneficial, all those explanations will come at a cost to your fluency. You want to practice having a conversation in the language you want to learn as much as possible.

Also, one of my favorite things to do with a tutor is a grammar lesson, where you practice the grammar and make example sentences, and so forth. I'm not saying don't study grammar, I'm saying don't make studying out of a textbook by yourself the centerpiece of your language learning, especially if you can help it.

[BaatumMania]

6 years later - does anyone know how good Roosh's Russian is? Except for chicks I just have a hard time imagining an use for it day to day. That's compared to how English has a big incentive in terms of employment and makes travel easier.