[april6e]

It's been a rough road trying to go from virgin to social master.

In short, no matter how much I improve myself and romantic skills, I have an inability to escalate unless the woman gives me permission. Either by touching me or verbally hitting on me/telling me she wants it.

Obviously this is a problem as women will not accept a man who doesn't lead in my experience with no exceptions.

I know this is the issue as there has been extremely rare situations I've found myself in the past where I was chased. With those women, I had no problem whatsoever. After they touched or opened me, the mental chains were off. I had no problem from that point on with leading the interaction. The smoothest interactions I've ever had in the past are with women that initiate with me.

Compare this to my recent shames, where I have flubbed at least 4 clear cut chances to lose my virginity in the last half year. These all were women where we specifically met up to have sex or I literally had in my bedroom. I've spent years improving every part of my game. Opening and initial conversation went great with these women, I pushed myself to surpass my comfort zone and set up insta-dates and set up great logistics. I get in front of the women and everything is going dandy. It comes time to escalate....and everything shatters. Rejection doesn't bother me much anymore but a woman's facial expression when she discovers you aren't a true man is still the worst feeling I've ever experienced. The way it turns from slight confusion (why is he taking so long to escalate) to utter disgust (this man isn't leading, I've lost all respect).

The first couple of times, I assumed it was me being afraid to escalate or not being sexual enough/not being attracted enough to my date. I spent a ton of time practicing kino, learning how to lead, sexualizing my personality/conversations and anything you can think of. And like I mentioned above, I drastically improved and now get a much better reaction from women (only if I lead though).

Basically I have no idea what I do with myself anymore, feel like a failure as a man and am in a huge slump. I have a bunch of dates lined up but I don't even want to show up as I know I'm going to freeze again if it comes to escalating.

I'd like comments (positive or critical) on the situation. Or advice on what steps I should take to become more comfortable with initiating kino/sexual escalation.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

I've had the same problem for many years. Truth be told, I don't know how I solved it. It just melted away with practice. I think reminding yourself of other challenges in your life that you had successfully passed does wonders.

[MongolianAbroad]

Where does alcohol fall into all of this?

[Dalaran1991]

The thing with kino is that while you are still practicing, it comes off wrong and very easy to be seen as creepy if you are pawing at the girls.

What fixes it for me wax to take dance class. You get comfortable touching them and be sexual.

[polymath]

It's tough to sexualize a situation if the girl isn't contributing. The goal should be to get her to contribute her own sexuality, not to get her to accept yours.

I personally don't believe in forcing the situation. I believe in guiding it. If your issue is that you need touch or verbal cues from a girl to feel comfortable with sex, then you should work on getting touched or hit on. You'll end up way more comfortable this way than by trying to circumvent the girl's cues.

That's what touch and verbal come-ons are, by the way. Cues. Not permission. Don't feel guilty about using a girl's touch as a signal for when you should escalate.

BTW, regarding your feeling that you're in a slump...you're only a failure as a man if you resign yourself to accepting your own dissatisfaction. If you cancel on your dates because you're afraid to freeze, then you're actively hurting your chances, your social life, and your self-esteem. These girls want some april6e and by god, you have to give it to them! Don't go in with an itinerary. Just relax and see what happens. If you feel the opportunity, just be bold and take it. Girls like to be surprised by masculine moves. Girls like to be kissed.

One last thing. If you think of it as kino, you're not going to do it naturally. Just think of it as acclimating a girl to being touched, and getting her comfortable with your physical presence around her. Put your hand gently on her arm for a second as you speak to her, then take it away before she could even consciously protest. Then a little longer. Read the vibe. If she seems happy (or unchanged), she's welcoming your touch. If she reacts at all negatively, tone it down. Don't say anything about it, nor look where you touch. Make it incidental.

"Touch." Not "kino." Get it into your head that everything you're doing is natural, and doesn't come from some pickup book or internet forum. You want to internalize how natural it is for a man to touch a woman on a date, then let yourself feel natural doing it. This is tough to do when you look at things so academically. ("escalate," "kino," "insta-date," "logistics," it all sounds very stuffy)

Also, would you describe yourself as a sexy guy?

[edtf]

I used to be exactly like you, but I watched this video about 10 times and then applied it, and what he said was true.

The gist is:
It is always the man's role to escalate, 99.9% of women will not

[april6e]

(08-08-2014 03:35 AM)polymath Wrote:  

Also, would you describe yourself as a sexy guy?

Not particularly. I've always hated the role of being the sexy leading rogue and it's never been my strength. I'm more into the whole "control" aspect of seduction. I've always admired those ugly guys who have no "golden" traits (height, money, possessions, etc.) yet you are baffled at why attractive women constantly orbit around them. They have no sex appeal whatsoever yet they set such strong frames with their non-verbal behavior that women automatically adjust their behavior to please them.

So it's not that I don't think I can be attractive to women. I just rather be desired. I don't care if women think I'm hot.

[WestIndianArchie]

(08-13-2014 10:11 PM)april6e Wrote:  

I've always admired those ugly guys who have no "golden" traits (height, money, possessions, etc.) yet you are baffled at why attractive women constantly orbit around them. They have no sex appeal whatsoever yet they set such strong frames with their non-verbal behavior that women automatically adjust their behavior to please them.

[HawkWrites]

(08-13-2014 10:11 PM)april6e Wrote:  

(08-08-2014 03:35 AM)polymath Wrote:  

Also, would you describe yourself as a sexy guy?

I've always admired those ugly guys who have no "golden" traits (height, money, possessions, etc.) yet you are baffled at why attractive women constantly orbit around them. They have no sex appeal whatsoever yet they set such strong frames with their non-verbal behavior that women automatically adjust their behavior to please them.

You just described game in a nutshell. Physical attraction is only part of it; the majority is in how you playfully mess with a woman to get her revved-up.