[Aer]

Judging by the onslaught of feminists and manboobs in the forum as of late, I'd like to point something out.

In the course of reading Bang a couple years back, it never occurred to me that Roosh was in fact a PUA. The way he wrote and the way he approached just felt less systematic and more realistic. I agree with his tactics and his theory that RSD isn't beneficial for young men, due to the fact that it just destroys women for some. Roosh, you yourself just seemed like a guy fed up with the system in which you were living in who discovered some PUAs and absorbed some information from in order to rid yourself of the social constraints you faced. I fall in the same boat, yet I didn't write a guide or anything because I realize I have a long way to go. And for that, you get respect from the boldness you displayed by writing all of those books.

I realize most of us aren't PUAs or anything like that, just men who want something the world can't give us these days. So we resort to improving ourselves, traveling, reading and learning new languages. If only the outside public actually knew what we put ourselves through in order to better ourselves.

We don't hate or want to dethrone women, we just want to bang some of them and settle down with others (preferably good looking, feminine ones). We're doing what we've been doing for centuries, only now we can talk on a forum on the internet about it. Guys have been talking about women in this way for centuries, maybe millenia. It's just the way it is.

What they don't realize is, we are a few decent men. Following in the footsteps of our fathers and grandfathers in the only way we know in this cruel, deranged society. We just want to be ourselves.

And that my friends, is the red pill. We aren't PUAs or anything the feminists call us, we are just men fed up with the "system" and the world we live in. We don't want to cause any harm. Maybe just have a little fun and be men which we were supposed to be.

[Samseau]

It's funny how any man who wants to approach dating women in a systematic way is labeled as a PUA, like a derogatory insult designed to indicate us as a bunch of nerds who believe in strange things.

I think this is a symptom of living in a democratic culture... anything that tries to rise above the norm is attacked in an attempt to have it brought back down.

The easy, most relevant example is the word "geek", which is what all the computer scientists in the 80's were labeled, and now those same guys are the only ones who produce anything of exceptional value in America today. Those "geeks" were men rising above the masses with their excellence, but only received attacks for their efforts.

Thus I take insults as positive encouragement: the masses are jealous.

[Veloce]

(01-24-2013 12:33 PM)Aer Wrote:  

Judging by the onslaught of feminists and manboobs in the forum as of late, I'd like to point something out.

In the course of reading Bang a couple years back, it never occurred to me that Roosh was in fact a PUA. The way he wrote and the way he approached just felt less systematic and more realistic. I agree with his tactics and his theory that RSD isn't beneficial for young men, due to the fact that it just destroys women for some. Roosh, you yourself just seemed like a guy fed up with the system in which you were living in who discovered some PUAs and absorbed some information from in order to rid yourself of the social constraints you faced. I fall in the same boat, yet I didn't write a guide or anything because I realize I have a long way to go. And for that, you get respect from the boldness you displayed by writing all of those books.

I realize most of us aren't PUAs or anything like that, just men who want something the world can't give us these days. So we resort to improving ourselves, traveling, reading and learning new languages. If only the outside public actually knew what we put ourselves through in order to better ourselves.

We don't hate or want to dethrone women, we just want to bang some of them and settle down with others (preferably good looking, feminine ones). We're doing what we've been doing for centuries, only now we can talk on a forum on the internet about it. Guys have been talking about women in this way for centuries, maybe millenia. It's just the way it is.

What they don't realize is, we are a few decent men. Following in the footsteps of our fathers and grandfathers in the only way we know in this cruel, deranged society. We just want to be ourselves.

And that my friends, is the red pill. We aren't PUAs or anything the feminists call us, we are just men fed up with the "system" and the world we live in. We don't want to cause any harm. Maybe just have a little fun and be men which we were supposed to be.

[reino341]

The seduction community carries a lot of evolutionary baggage, especially in its nomenclature. I don't think anyone these days wants to associate himself with the word PUA. Most people are well past the idea of going to a club with a furry top hat and negging a few chicks. It's a shame the reigning philosophies in the community, self development and "natural game" are eclipsed by misbelief and other bullshit.

[soup]

Sorry, but I consider what I do to be an art. I'm a PUA. At times, I'm like Picasso

but don't compare me to Reubens

[Pappy]

(01-24-2013 12:33 PM)Aer Wrote:  

.

And that my friends, is the red pill. We aren't PUAs or anything the feminists call us, we are just men fed up with the "system" and the world we live in. We don't want to cause any harm. Maybe just have a little fun and be men which we were supposed to be.

I would be ashamed of being associated with PUAs. Because to be frank, most of them sound like the male version of the feminazis we hate so much : self absorbed, narcissic and out for revenge. They don't care about anything but fucking chicks and dumping them for their own good, from religious virgins to sluts without any discrimination, which shows a lot of immaturity. A good man doesn't destroy good women, he marries them. And he has some sluts for mistresses on the side.

I want the world to change back to a good stable patriarchy where we can get married and have families. And I don't see much vision from the PUA community going that way. We're not going to get any support from sane people by shitting on every women. We're sitting on something big here and we have to stir the leadership to the right direction...

[Kabal]

I fundamentally think of myself as a lifestyle arbitrageur.

I leverage the income I make from my U.S. job to travel and explore the world. I leverage my looks, charisma, and trilingual abilities to swoop girls wherever I go, including in the U.S.

Although I wouldn't like being associated with "PUAs", I don't really give a shit about drawing a delineation between what I do and PUAs do.

All I know is what I definitely do not do: sit around and cast aspersions upon people who create exciting experiences and opportunities for themselves to make myself feel better about the mediocrity and mundanity of my own life.

No olive branch from me. I'll live my life, and manboobs and feminists can live theirs.

[bojangles]

we are lifestyle artists, we live to it's fullest and explore our possibilities to live our lives to their best

[soup]

I'd rather be called a "pick-up artist" than a "lifestyle artist" - the latter is too gay sounding.

The problem with the term pick-up artist is that in a literal sense it means actually picking up a girl and carrying her away.

But, you can't do that with fat chicks because they are too heavy. That's why these women hate on PUA so much; I'd bet most them are overweight.

[bojangles]

(01-25-2013 04:54 AM)soup Wrote:  

I'd rather be called a "pick-up artist" than a "lifestyle artist" - the latter is too gay sounding.

The problem with the term pick-up artist is that in a literal sense it means actually picking up a girl and carrying her away.

But, you can't do that with fat chicks because they are too heavy. That's why these women hate on PUA so much; I'd bet most them are overweight.

I would not want to be called a lifestyle artist either but it's mostly what we are, artists? fuck it playboys will do. International playboys for some you.

[Aer]

(01-24-2013 07:55 PM)Pappy Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:33 PM)Aer Wrote:  

.

And that my friends, is the red pill. We aren't PUAs or anything the feminists call us, we are just men fed up with the "system" and the world we live in. We don't want to cause any harm. Maybe just have a little fun and be men which we were supposed to be.

I would be ashamed of being associated with PUAs. Because to be frank, most of them sound like the male version of the feminazis we hate so much : self absorbed, narcissic and out for revenge. They don't care about anything but fucking chicks and dumping them for their own good, from religious virgins to sluts without any discrimination, which shows a lot of immaturity. A good man doesn't destroy good women, he marries them. And he has some sluts for mistresses on the side.

I want the world to change back to a good stable patriarchy where we can get married and have families. And I don't see much vision from the PUA community going that way. We're not going to get any support from sane people by shitting on every women. We're sitting on something big here and we have to stir the leadership to the right direction...

This is the exact point I'm making.

We don't want to just get women, we want to improve ourselves and, as a function of that, be more confident, and as a function of THAT, swoop chicks relatively easy.

This is why I could never read mystery. Humility is an art for which he could never capture. He was also supremely fucked up in the head so he took his aggravation from his childhood out on women. RSD is a little better, but his stories become a bit more, well, "Hollywood" towards the end of the book.

And Roissy, I like his old stuff and some of his science, but he is a bit more radical than I would like, but some of the stuff he preaches relates to our passion for real socioeconomic stability and the return of the man.

I'm just trying to be a little moderate here and unite us under a single slogan of self improvement and betterment in general.

Let's all go read some Marcus Aurelius.

[LouieG]

Great thread. I'd add that this is not a men's rights forum - lot of fembloggers were calling Roosh a PUA/MRA during the 9 Ugliest Feminists flap last week.

MRA & PUA are much narrower and lesser than the agenda Roosh pushes in his writing, and which most guys here embrace. That's why I'm confident that if/when the manosphere goes mainstream, RVF will be one of the sites that withstands the scrutiny. At some point, the haters will have to stop cherry picking creepy posts and passages and contend with the incredible amount of material here on inner game and self-improvement.

[polymath]

I don't have a problem with someone calling me a pickup artist. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

[dealer10]

The term PUA seems try-hard to me. I would never want to look at myself that way. It seems today social dynamics are understood and explained so well by some like Roosh and Roissy that it's not really even an art anymore so much as it's a science. An art is something that is an innate talent and it's generally difficult to pinpoint how and why you do what you do to create it. Science is something you can learn and apply and ultimately improve at.

[Teedub]

(01-25-2013 12:53 PM)dealer10 Wrote:  

The term PUA seems try-hard to me. I would never want to look at myself that way. It seems today social dynamics are understood and explained so well by some like Roosh and Roissy that it's not really even an art anymore so much as it's a science. An art is something that is an innate talent and it's generally difficult to pinpoint how and why you do what you do to create it. Science is something you can learn and apply and ultimately improve at.

Lifestyle engineers it is then!

[Giovonny]

This is all semantics but...

Most guys don't like "pua" because they don't want to be associated with Mystery, Neil Strauss, and those guys. (Ironically, most guys have read "The Game" and would love to have Mystery's sex life and Neil's bank account.)

I like the term "Pick Up Artist".

To me, this is art. The Art of Sexual Politics

What is a higher art form then that? What is more interesting? More fascinating? More exciting?

Don't let the term scare you.

Picking up women is just as much art as it is science.

In fact, the art is what makes life fun and beautiful.

Science alone is boring. Have fun with this stuff. Be an artist.

[AlbertoDelMuerto]

You're only PUA if you use routines,openers and you wear fancy unconventional clothes (peacock). People like Roosh, Janka, Hypnotica, RSD Julien are not PUAs, they are players.

[Teedub]

(01-25-2013 01:19 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

This is all semantics but...

Most guys don't like "pua" because they don't want to be associated with Mystery, Neil Strauss, and those guys. (Ironically, most guys have read "The Game" and would love to have Mystery's sex life and Neil's bank account.)

I don't get all the hate Mystery gets on here. His methods work for him and the people he's taught so good for him. Sure we have our own style and prefer a less formulaic approach, but Roosh's style still owes something to the foundations Mystery laid down. Mystery probably owes something to Ross Jeffries etc etc.

[Sargon of Akkad]

I don't identify in any way shape or form with the term "PUA", which is why I never use it. Other than that, I'd rather not be associated with all the tropes associated with those who by the term, including all the pseudo-science and marketing tactics.

However, I don't identify with the so-called manosphere, either. I don't care about feminism either way, nor do I give a crap about having discussions on patriarchy or gender (in)equality (as far as I'm concerned, MRAs are little more than the male counterpart of feminazis). What I'm interested in is seeing new places and having as many new, fulfilling experiences as I can. Since sex is a major part of my psyche, it goes without saying that these include having a fulfilled sex life.

[j r]

(01-24-2013 07:55 PM)Pappy Wrote:  

I would be ashamed of being associated with PUAs. Because to be frank, most of them sound like the male version of the feminazis we hate so much : self absorbed, narcissic and out for revenge. They don't care about anything but fucking chicks and dumping them for their own good, from religious virgins to sluts without any discrimination, which shows a lot of immaturity. A good man doesn't destroy good women, he marries them. And he has some sluts for mistresses on the side.

I want the world to change back to a good stable patriarchy where we can get married and have families. And I don't see much vision from the PUA community going that way. We're not going to get any support from sane people by shitting on every women. We're sitting on something big here and we have to stir the leadership to the right direction...

It's curious that you use "we" in this comment. I certainly don't feel this way. The last thing I want is to turn the United States into Saudi Arabia. I don't even suffer from this imagined 50s nostalgia.

Far from longing for the patriarchy, I actually think that the whole idea of the patriarchy is a good deal of feminist myth. There certainly was a time when women faced lots of legal and social prohibitions, and certainly there are places where this still the case. However, I don't know that America was ever really patriarchal in the sense that some of the Islamic countries are.

I want women to have full equality before the law, but I also think that people should bear the responsibilities of their actions. That's my beef with third-wave feminism. If you want to be fat and have short hair and be snarky all the time, cool. Just don't complain about socially-constructed beauty standards when the only dudes you attract are herbs and players. If you want to bang lots of alpha dudes who have no interest in committing to you through your 20s and 30s, that's OK with me. Just don't whine and complain when you're 40 and alone.

It seems like there's a split on this forum, and I guess in the manosphere as a whole, between the libertines and the traditionalists. Although, maybe the libertines are just frustrated traditionalists. I don't know. I just know that this contemporary world, with all its flaws, allows me a degree of freedom that I wouldn't have had at almost any other time in history, unless I was on of the upper classes maybe.

[Sir Alan]

[quote] (01-25-2013 03:26 PM)j r Wrote:  

[quote='Pappy' pid='355478' dateline='1359075343']It seems like there's a split on this forum, and I guess in the manosphere as a whole, between the libertines and the traditionalists. Although, maybe the libertines are just frustrated traditionalists. I don't know. I just know that this contemporary world, with all its flaws, allows me a degree of freedom that I wouldn't have had at almost any other time in history, unless I was on of the upper classes maybe.[/quote]

I feel like on the whole, Roosh's audience tends to be more on the liberal side of things especially when compared to some other guys out there such as Heartiste. A lot of Roosh's audience just wants to get laid and doesn't really care about MRA stuff or whatever else is out there. I also feel that the only reason many of us care about feminism is because of how it tries to elevate women above men instead of giving both genders an equal playing field.

I also do not identify with the manosphere guys who advocate for a 50s traditionalist "utopia" in which women are ordered to "get back to the kitchen". To me, the guys who advocate for that type of arrangement are beta males who can't stomach the fact that women now have the choice of who they want to fuck and they simply can't measure up.

[Roosh]

(01-25-2013 09:44 AM)LouieG Wrote:  

Great thread. I'd add that this is not a men's rights forum - lot of fembloggers were calling Roosh a PUA/MRA during the 9 Ugliest Feminists flap last week.

MRA & PUA are much narrower and lesser than the agenda Roosh pushes in his writing, and which most guys here embrace. That's why I'm confident that if/when the manosphere goes mainstream, RVF will be one of the sites that withstands the scrutiny. At some point, the haters will have to stop cherry picking creepy posts and passages and contend with the incredible amount of material here on inner game and self-improvement.

I've published over 1500 posts. And all they can get outrage on is my When No Means Yes post. One post. You can't sustain nationwide outrage on one post. You can't even do it with a book, as my Bang travel guides show. After 4 days, people forget.

[j r]

(01-25-2013 05:06 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 09:44 AM)LouieG Wrote:  

Great thread. I'd add that this is not a men's rights forum - lot of fembloggers were calling Roosh a PUA/MRA during the 9 Ugliest Feminists flap last week.

MRA & PUA are much narrower and lesser than the agenda Roosh pushes in his writing, and which most guys here embrace. That's why I'm confident that if/when the manosphere goes mainstream, RVF will be one of the sites that withstands the scrutiny. At some point, the haters will have to stop cherry picking creepy posts and passages and contend with the incredible amount of material here on inner game and self-improvement.

I've published over 1500 posts. And all they can get outrage on is my When No Means Yes post. One post. You can't sustain nationwide outrage on one post. You can't even do it with a book, as my Bang travel guides show. After 4 days, people forget.

It's important to remember that most feminist outrage is manufactured. Much of contemporary feminism is a big shit test and it sites like Jezebel and Feministing and Pandagon are masters of concern trolling. "ZOMG! Some dude somewhere in East Bumfuck said what about rape!?!?" As if the only thing keeping us from a world free of sexual assault is en masse feminist re-education. The only reason that some half-retarded maniac dons a ski mask and waits in a dark alley is because State Senator Dingleberry submitted a bill to the State House requiring all women to register their vaginas at the local police station in order to aid police in future rape cases. The best way to keep a college girl safe from being sexually assaulted by he local frat boy isn't to try and teach her to stay out of vulnerable situations in the first place; no, it's to make sure the Women's Studies department is fully funded. If you can't see the clear line of causality between those two things then it must be because you're a misogynist asshole who treats women like shit and you're also a loser who can't get laid and lives in his mom's basement. Oh yeah, you must also have a small penis. Remember feminism doesn't believe in any link between human physiology and how how human brains function, except that if you disagree with a feminist it means you have a small dick.

The other thing is that contemporary feminism has a strangely Victorian nature to it. First there's the outrage, then comes the pearl clutching and the fainting couch. And then a million internet betas rush to apply their handkerchiefs to the poor damsel's disturbed brow.

We tend to think of this as a modern issue, but really it's one of the oldest plots in existence. Woman has a bunch of fawning beta suitors, all of who she finds seriously lacking. She becomes aware of some rogue to whom she is simultaneously attracted to and repulsed by. She makes a big deal about how horrible this person is and her beta constellation nods in agreement. That's what plays out between the internet feminists, the manboobs, and manosphere. It's been going on since the beginning of time.

[Aer]

(01-25-2013 01:19 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

This is all semantics but...

Most guys don't like "pua" because they don't want to be associated with Mystery, Neil Strauss, and those guys. (Ironically, most guys have read "The Game" and would love to have Mystery's sex life and Neil's bank account.)

I like the term "Pick Up Artist".

To me, this is art. The Art of Sexual Politics

What is a higher art form then that? What is more interesting? More fascinating? More exciting?

Don't let the term scare you.

Picking up women is just as much art as it is science.

In fact, the art is what makes life fun and beautiful.

Science alone is boring. Have fun with this stuff. Be an artist.

I like the way you argue about this. However, the term "Pick Up Artist" has evoked so much negative stigma over the past couple of years in the mainstream media.

It is true, most of us have read Strauss and Mystery, including myself, but there is a big difference between someone who blindly approaches girls that he doesn't even have interest in and goes out 5 nights a week just to approach like a robot, and someone who takes the moderate approach and improves himself in other ways such as weightlifting, reading and approaching girls who he deems pretty and having the tools and confidence to talk to them.

[Giovonny]

(01-26-2013 03:31 AM)Aer Wrote:  

I like the way you argue about this.

Thank you. I like the way you challenged me.

Thats funny. I'm going to to steal that from you. The next time I disagree with someone I'm going to say...

"I like the way you argue that. However, blah blah blah.."

Thats genius! You are one smooth motherfucker.

(01-26-2013 03:31 AM)Aer Wrote:  

However, the term "Pick Up Artist" has evoked so much negative stigma over the past couple of years in the mainstream media.

I know. I'm don't care. I just like the term. I like to call this art. To me, a "pick up artist" is a guy who can talk a woman into bed in such a way that it looks and feels like an artistic experience. It inspires, changes perspective, moves emotions. I really see the interaction between man and woman as an art form.

Maybe we should change it to "Bang Artist" or "Pussy Artist".

I'm cool with anything that ends in "artist".

Just kidding. I don't care.

And, Mystery's tv show was proven to be fake.

(01-26-2013 03:31 AM)Aer Wrote:  

the moderate approach

Yes, the middle path, I need to take it more often.

Thanks Aer.