Quote: (03-29-2012 03:17 PM)kosko Wrote:
If you say "BS" to this go try and live of exclusively meat and see where you end up.
Brutal. Ok, I'll bite.
Quote: (03-29-2012 03:17 PM)kosko Wrote:
^ This is really off base. The whole "hunt" mentality of humans is a myth. Look at physical composition and you start to figure out how this is a complete lie. We share more with a horse then we do with a cougar.
Yeah.. Like the eyes on the sides of our heads. Wait? We have predatory eyes on the fronts of our heads - like predators. For hunting.
Maybe it is the fact we have two stomachs like cows, sheep etc. Nope!
I suppose horses have one stomach, which is why they eat grass like we can... Nope.
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If you say "BS" to this go try and live of exclusively meat and see where you end up. The human body can naturally break down plants and extract all nutrients from them while with meat this is not the case.
Inuit's have a completely carnivorous diet, as do nomadic Asians. Paleolithic humans had a diet similar to that of bears and wolves; I suggest you search out the work of Buckminster-Fuller, Vilhjalmur Stefansson and Weston Price, who I'll come to in a moment.
Nobody has claimed that we're pure carnivores, but it is retarded to think that humans didn't eat meat in HUGE quantities. Oh and by the way, we can't break down cellulose, a big part of herbivores digestive power.
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The next thing is out teeth if humans were supposed to eat mostly animal flesh are teeth would reflect this. Go pick up your dog and pry open its mouth. Examines its teeth compared to yours, you notice your dog has more triangular 'shredders' that are meant to be able to rip through animal flesh easier. Contrast this to a human which may have 4 tiny canine teeth with the majority being molars which press and break down plant fibers. Are teeth look more like horses and koalas then cougars or dogs.
Price was a dentistry dude who found that in the carnivorous cultures stated above, they rarely had any tooth decay or need for dental work. This is opposed to the modern diet, where people's teeth are fucked.
Also, canines have molars, bears have molars, humans have molars. Yes we grind food down but we have a mix of teeth, like all omnivores.
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Next effort. Humans as mostly plant eaters need to constantly eat more to get a good abundance of nutrients. Most of us, even if you don't agree with my premise in my post here will agree that the western style of "3 meals a day" is off base. Humans generally need 6 meals a day at least, we need constant upgrades of fuel versus most meat eaters whom would eat once a day or maybe once evrey few days. The modern human can sit now and paint false stories of being hunters. Few will ever be put into the position of hunting mass amounts of food to understand the required effort involved in doing this.
Humans aren't mostly plant eaters. Humans don't need 6 meals a day, jesus. They do if they're eating chicken food and biscuits and stuff with no caloric value, but you can easily become super strong on a heavy fasting diet where you eat once or twice a day and eat LOADS.
'Few humans will ever hunt' is a ridiculous argument. Few will ever do agriculture either? And it doesn't matter how much energy you burn, in most of the human world there are seasons, which means during winter, autumn and spring you aren't getting many fruits and veggies unless you dig for them. Before plowed fields and GM veggies growing where they were put, how much energy do you think paleo-man used digging up potatoes or carrots?
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- tracking migration seasons and patterns
- traveling far distances to find your prey
That is exactly what humans did. We're the only animals that can track those complex things, and one of the only sets of animals that can hunt in packs to chase down prey. When you consider we're the smartest, and our nearest followers(in intelligence terms) are dolphins, orcas, chimps, wolves, hunting dogs etc. who generally also hunt in packs to chase down prey, how is it even debatable that we could be the only high-intelligence-herbivore-notpackhuntereventhoughthatisexactlywhatatribeis among all the other ones?
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There was no Publix to get your meat from with zero to know effort. You sometimes expended more energy to get the meat than you even would re-coup in nutrition. This is why humans learned to grow and raise there own food. Small goats, lambs, rabbits and chickens were more manageable but this came after the fact once we started growing crops (or at the same time).
If predators always expended more effort to get meat than they got from it, then it wouldn't be an evolutionarily stable imprint; i.e. predators wouldn't survive. Agriculture is something our bodies aren't designed for; they haven't evolutionarily caught up. It is also, at 10,000 years ago, an almost insignificant time when considering that our biological make-up is similar to the first true humans which appeared over 200,000 years ago.
Agriculture also meant we started eating grains - you can't believe we were also built for that, even though increasingly they're killing us?
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Mass production is the only reason meat has become such a high component of the human diet. There is no other reason. Meat is extremely resource and energy intensive to produce this is why prior to the 1900's humans only got about 15% of their diet from meat. Only after the 60s/70s did it balloon to rates we are used to today with the myth that we were brolic hunters whom killed bears with our hands when in truth we we just raised rabbits lol.
At this point I'd rather not repeat points. It isn't a myth that we were hunters, I mean WTF? There's a lot of archaeology to prove that we obviously were. I guess those cave pictures are fake too? Human's have been hunters throughout their history. Jesus.
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Instead of looking at tales look at human nature and our composition. You don't get unhealthy eating a diet composed of dense plants.. Go find me a person whom has grown sick from eating to much spinach. You can find millions of people whom have grown sick from eating to much animal protein tho.. Tons of people. Now with human nature, humans are notorious for avoiding wasting energy if not needed.
You're just going to have to source up here. Where are the millions of people who get sick from 'too much animal protein?' What does that even mean? And I'm pretty sure you can get sick from eating just vegetables, but I never suggested such a thing and don't now. Humans aren't notorious for being low energy animals - hence we aren't still fucking around in tribes and we have skyscrapers etc.
I'm starting to think your argument is based purely from subjective observations, which is kinda scary, no offense.
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Outside of American culture people do not go balls out for tasks if not needed, you will need the energy for when it is needed. I can't see the logic of humans spending more energy to go hunt mass amounts of meat then they would get in return from the majority plant based diet.
I'm not sure American moral values have much to do with biology.
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Look back to settlement patterns and how humans favored being in close proximity to water to be close to plants and their lifeblood water. If humans used the myth logical we would live on the tops of hills far removed from our own vitals to be more close to animals we hunted
Holy shit. We moved near to water because we need to drink it. ANIMALS WHICH WE EAT also need to drink too. Have you never seen a documentary with literally thousands of animals grazing at waterholes, and predatory animals trying to snatch them from there?
All animals go near water holes. And surprise - humans, like other predators, also settle on high ground for better terrain visibility. Would you argue that a tiger is not a carnivore because it climbs trees away from the water where its food is?
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and finally composition. We don't have claws or flesh cutting teeth. Maybe millions of years ago we did but hey that's not relevant for humans near history of the last few thousand years.
No, we have a brain and a predatory desire to hunt things down in packs with spears and rocks (And later knives, guns, bombs. Face it, we spend a lot of time as a species coming up with killing machines.) And of course human history is relevant when you're talking about biological make up! We haven't physically evolved in the last few thousands years. Do you know how long evolution takes?
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Meat is a important piece of are overall diet. I am far from some vegan feeble as some may get from this post. 20% protien in your diet is more than enough. There are superior plant sources that all cultures and civilizations had to keep them running and prospering. Humans got there 20% from smaller game and fish. These were more suited to are living patterns. The idea of hunting down large animals is a disney creation. The ROI is so low and proper complete nutrition can not be attained and a exclusive high meat diet.
I'm sorry, but I have to call BS. Disney creation? You realise there are paleolithic paintings depicting hunts right? You realise it is less nutritionally valuable to catch a rabbit than large game, right?
You'd have to catch twenty rabbits to feed a tribe for one day. One bison would feed a tribe for a week.
as for sources:
Vilhjalmur Stefansson
Richard Buckminster Fuller
Ketogenic Diet.
Any Paleo book.
Go live with eskimos.
etc.