[ElJefe]

Vicious, whether we agree or disagree, you me and Laner and grabbing beers and Swedish butts this spring. However I can't help but point out on page 2 of the report from EuroStat you put up there that Sweden and Denmark are in that small group of nations where the trend has been UPWARDS, unlike the rest of the EU. I quote:


total crime:
In most EU countries, crime levels have been decreasing consistently since about 2002 (see Figure 2). This trend continued in the EU as a whole in the period 2006 to 2009, though the tendency was upwards in a number of individual Member States, including Romania, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden, Portugal and Finland. Rises were also recorded in Iceland and Liechtenstein.

and under violent crime:

The figures for violent crime include violence against the person (such as physical assault), robbery (stealing by force or threat of force) and sexual offences (including rape and sexual assault)... At country level, the picture is mixed, with significant rises in Cyprus, Denmark, Luxembourg, Greece and Sweden and notable falls in Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, the United Kingdom, Poland and the Czech Republic.

The only reason Norway isn't mentioned here, too is because Norway is not part of the EU.

I didn't read the rest of the report, but I do remember similar numbers being the in the news before.

My main point is that it's typical amongst Scandinavians, I think, to insist on the inferiority of the American system vs. their own, but I am not sure at all if it's that simple. Hence my objection. Note I didn't insist on the opposite of what you said, merely pointed out alternatives because the data could be interpreted differently.

[Vicious]

ElJefe:

You have to look at the numbers, Norway is featured there.
Also, remember that this is an index, not an average or rate - if you compensate for population growth the figures for violent crime are, as mentioned, virtually stagnant.

[Giovonny]

Vicious,

Great post.

(03-04-2012 11:27 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Looking at the US prison population, how is that working out for you? Especially since a good portion of these people are incarcerated on victimless crimes (possession probably being the main culprit).

Our system is pretty bad. It makes criminals worse alot of the time. I wish we could move towards something different. I'm not saying I want the Norway system but we have to be able to do a better job then what we have now.

(03-04-2012 11:27 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

For a board with so many free-thinking individuals I'm surprised no one has yet recognised that US prisons are mainly a private industry that is making a lot of money and has a very sizeable lobby.

Don't be surprised. HenCred and I already pointed that out...

(03-02-2012 02:12 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

the American prison industrial complex

(03-02-2012 10:18 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

I know the American prison system is a fucking disgrace. A "for profit" business

(03-04-2012 11:27 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

So what many of the posters here are saying in effect is that they accept fewer rights and less security in order to exact a higher punishment on a criminal. To me that is entirely in character with the spirit of the US - the addiction to quick-fixes and feel-good solutions but lacking a long-term strategy. On this forum we attack this mindset when it comes to people's personal health and how the economy is handle for example. Why is it that we are accepting the same erroneous behaviour when it comes to crime & punishment?

I don't exactly understand everything you wrote in this paragraph but the more I read it the more I like it and the more I like your post. You do a nice job of pointing out some of the flaws in modern American thinking. And, how most of us are just "sheep" following the herd.

[Hencredible Casanova]

American prisons are an utter disaster. Real talk; I'd probably take my own life if that's where I was headed. Thankfully, I'm a law-abiding libertarian and don't foresee that kind of fate.

This clip does a good job at explaining what an American prison experience is actually like

[Vicious]

(03-04-2012 03:06 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Don't be surprised. HenCred and I already pointed that out...

[quote='Hencredible Casanova' pid='170453' dateline='1330715542']
the American prison industrial complex

(03-02-2012 10:18 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

I know the American prison system is a fucking disgrace. A "for profit" business

Oops, I guess I didn't give you enough credit there I thought I had read all posts.

[Gmac]

(03-04-2012 03:13 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

American prisons are an utter disaster. Real talk; I'd probably take my own life if that's where I was headed. Thankfully, I'm a law-abiding libertarian and don't foresee that kind of fate.

This clip does a good job at explaining what an American prison experience is actually like

I'd skip the country before killing myself.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(03-04-2012 04:18 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

I'd skip the country before killing myself.

I'd definitely look into that, too. Couldn't think of where I'd want to go given the choices. Many of the countries I like have extradition treaties with the US.

Seen here in light blue.

[Cincinnatus]

(03-04-2012 07:50 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I'd definitely look into that, too. Couldn't think of where I'd want to go given the choices. Many of the countries I like have extradition treaties with the US.

Seen here in light blue.

Damn. Looks like you'd have to completely write-off the western hemisphere.

Not much promising on the other side of the world, either. About the only place I could see myself going for long-term would be Eastern Europe.

[Hencredible Casanova]

Yeah. Even Cuba, apparently.

According to Bas Rutten, Swedish jails aren't that great.

[SVK]

(03-02-2012 03:37 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 03:08 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(03-02-2012 02:58 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Americans enjoy way more freedoms than Norwegians.

Ooooook, you really have to show something solid to make this kind of claim.

Post-911 (hello Patriot Act!) I would even argue that Americans enjoy fewer freedoms than Norwegians.

No problem, sir.

Here's your evidence.

I tend to make sure I have some support before I make some kind of claim.

Also, I've been to many European countries. The US just "feels" freer. You can just get in a car and just go wherever the F your money can get you. Driving in many European countries costs an arm and a leg.

The Bay Area in particular is as free as it gets in my experience.

That source is a ranking of ECONOMIC freedom, e.g. how much of a liberal, laissez-faire, free market economy the country has. It has nothing to do with real social freedom whatsoever. Better ranking for "freedom" would be to use the Press Freedom Index, although that one is maybe too specific to press in particular. Still, can give you an idea about freedom in a certain country. I was pretty shocked to see how low the USA ranked, lower than almost all of Europe. Scandinavia is on the top.

[Hencredible Casanova]

Bumping an old thread because this article a friend sent me about the Norweigian mass killer. He's apparently threatening a hunger strike over demands such as, upgrading from a PS2 to a PS3, no lie.

I've always sorta joked that I should hit up Norway one day and immediately commit a felony upon leaving the airport, knocking on wood I don't get extradited so I can "serve my time" in a luxurious resort aka Norwegian prison.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2...unger.html

Edit: I looked at the old posts in this thread and noticed my little "debate" with Durangotang. Sorry dude. I was an asshole

Quote:

Anders Breivik, who killed 77 people (most of them teenagers) during twin terror attacks in the summer of 2011, wants the world to know that he's being treated "worse than an animal" in prison and is considering going on a hunger strike until the "torture"-like living conditions improve.

Just how bad are things for the admitted and unrepentant killer? Well, for one, he says he's being forced to play his video games on an out-of-date Playstation 2 instead of a newer model. (Oh, the humanity.) Here are the rest of Breivik's demands, which he recently detailed in a letter to the AFP and that are unlikely to provoke a whole lot of sympathy from the world at large:
The demands include better conditions for his daily walk and the right to communicate more freely with the outside world, which he argues are in line with European rights legislation. He also demanded that his PlayStation 2 games console be upgraded to a Playstation 3 "with access to more adult games that I get to choose myself". ...
Breivik also wants his standard weekly allowance of 300 kroner ($49, 36 euros) to be doubled, particularly to cover his postal charges from written correspondence. Other demands include an end to daily physical searches, and access to a PC rather than to a "worthless typewriter with technology dating back to 1873".
(Note: I'm guessing given he's specifically asking for a Playstation 3 that he's unaware that a newer model, the Playstation 4, came out this past fall. Either that, or the request is an odd show of moderation for a prisoner asking for new toys.)

Breivik was deemed sane by a Norwegian court in the summer of 2012 and sentenced to 21 years in prison, the most-severe sentence allowed under the Scandinavian country's laws but one that could be extended if he's still considered a danger to society when his sentence is up. He's been kept in isolation since 2011 for security reasons, something that he is now arguing entitles him to a wider "selection of activities" than other inmates to compensate for his lack of human interaction.

Details of Breivik's current conditions are a bit unclear, although Norwegian news reports from the time of his sentencing suggested that he was going to be kept in a three-room cell complete with an exercise area and a television.

[spalex]

I have done some work out there.

Fucking Norway and its retarded justice system.
I think its fucked how there are guys in there doing 10 years in jail for driving a truck filled with beer across the boarder, next to guys in there doing 2 years for raping a chick.

[Vicious]

You keep saying that and people keep challenging you to back it up.

Waiting.

[spalex]

(02-17-2014 05:57 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

You keep saying that and people keep challenging you to back it up.

Waiting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape

In Norway, rape is defined under the Norwegian Penal Code[42] § 192 as either:
1. engaging in sexual activity by means of violence or threatening behaviour,
2. engaging in sexual activity with somebody who is unconscious or for any other reason incapable of resisting the act, or
3. by means of violence or threatening behaviour compelling any person to engage in sexual activity with another person, or to carry out similar actions with him- or herself.
When any of these circumstances occur, a person guilty of rape is punishable with up to 10 years imprisonment. However, if a person is guilty of rape through gross negligence he or she is liable to imprisonment for a period not exceeding five years.
If the activity in question was sexual intercourse or the offender has rendered a person unconscious or unable to resist the sexual activity, the penalty imposed shall be no less than three years imprisonment.
Further, the same section defines aggravated rape as a rape committed
a. by multiple persons in cooperation (gang rape)
b. in a particularly painful or offensive manner
c. by a person previously convicted of rape under § 192 or of sexual activity with a child under the age of 14 (as per § 195 of the penal code)
d. in such a way that the victim either dies or receives grievous bodily harm.
The section recognizes sexually transmitted diseases (defined in the Infection Protection Act) as grievous bodily harm.


So what I said Isn't spot on. But you do constantly hear about middle eastern foreigners getting 18 months and 2 years because they say "in our culture it is normal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWWrpv-pbuc
This is how common it is.

I will get back to you with the alcohol laws, cant find a lot on the internet so I will have to go through some local newspapers. (take a bit longer as they are not in my native language).
But I have seen stories on the news about Norwegian guys getting 10 years for driving a truck over the border filled with beer.

[Vicious]

So in other words, Norwegian rape laws are far Less arbitrary and better defined than most other Western nations? Your point?

That widely linked YouTube clip (it's a sad time we live in when people consider a news segment a source) has been treaded on the forum before. It refers to 24 cases for all of a year out of a total of 152. How is that common. Here's the full report :

[Vicious]

https://www.politi.no/vedlegg/lokale_ved...g_1309.pdf

Couldn't paste in the previous post for some reason

[Hencredible Casanova]

Vicious - the document in that link appears to be in Norwegian (?)

I think the point has been lost in all of this back and forth. No one is comparing the efficacy of different prison systems or cultures in shaping criminal behavior.

The point is can you or anyone explain how plasma TVs, gourmet cooking classes, personal trainers, or the latest game console is necessary in rehabilitating a criminal?

According to Spalex's Oslo data sheet, law abiding Norwegians have to pinch pennies just to experience a basic luxury like going to the movies.

So why is it that an extremely dangerous man who killed 77 people (most of them young) without even an iota of remorse gets the perks I mentioned at the expense of the Norwegian taxpayer?

I don't see how depriving such a man of a PS3 or any other perk is harmful to the stated goals of Norway's prison system.

[spalex]

(02-17-2014 08:35 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

So in other words, Norwegian rape laws are far Less arbitrary and better defined than most other Western nations? Your point?

My point was that that the justice system in Norway is retarded.

It is better defined, but in no way is it better, or less arbitrary.

[Vicious]

(02-18-2014 02:36 AM)spalex Wrote:  

My point was that that the justice system in Norway is retarded.

It is better defined, but in no way is it better, or less arbitrary.

Yes you keep repeating lots of personal opinion about Norway as fact that doesn't hold up to closer examination.

[Vicious]

(02-18-2014 02:36 AM)spalex Wrote:  

My point was that that the justice system in Norway is retarded.

It is better defined, but in no way is it better, or less arbitrary.

Yes you keep repeating lots of personal opinion about Norway as fact that doesn't hold up to closer examination.

(02-18-2014 02:05 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Vicious - the document in that link appears to be in Norwegian (?)

Yes. That shouldn't be surprising, no? I believe you could run it through google translate or other translation software.

Here are some excerpts in English: http://www.scribd.com/doc/76695373/Excer...rt-on-Rape

I think the point has been lost in all of this back and forth. No one is comparing the efficacy of different prison systems or cultures in shaping criminal behaviour.

Quote:

The point is can you or anyone explain how plasma TVs, gourmet cooking classes, personal trainers, or the latest game console is necessary in rehabilitating a criminal?

I don't see this being a point in the recent discussion at all. But to answer your question just googling Crime prevention and rehabilitation turns up tons of info on how art and handicraft have positive effects.

Personally I don't know, but I look at the figures on Norway's re-incarceration rates and rehab and can simply conclude that they are doing something right.

I believe we are doing a mistake however if we assume that this can be applied directly to the US. This would likely be disastrous.

Quote:

According to Spalex's Oslo data sheet, law abiding Norwegians have to pinch pennies just to experience a basic luxury like going to the movies.

That is simply not correct. If he indeed claims this he's giving the forum bad info.