[Arado]

(02-05-2012 03:12 PM)kosko Wrote:  

Of course you throw in the H bomb to sure up your weak arguments. Your shooting air balls bro.

If only we could believe in the best intentions of other countries. Unfortunately, Iran is not a responsible international actor.

There can be no other country as determined to whitewash the crimes of Nazi Germany as Iran. The depth of Iranian Holocaust rejection is clear. President Ahmadinejad has repeatedly denied the Holocaust, calling it a "big lie" in August of last year. There is apparent consensus on the issue in the higher echelons of the Iranian leadership. Ahmadinejad used a trip to Germany (where Holocaust denial is a crime) in 2007 to pointedly announce that he "cannot confirm or deny" the Holocaust. Infamously, in December 2006, the Iranian regime arranged an academic smoke-screen for deniers, organizing a conference "to review the global vision of the Holocaust."

On the face of it, Iran's Holocaust obsession makes little sense, given that it is a county both untouched and untainted by the horrors of Hitler. Yet, it should be a wake-up call to those who would give Iran a free pass. By denying that the darkest chapter in human history ever happened, Ahmadinejad and his cronies understand that they are leaving a chink of light for such depravity to return.

This is exactly why Iranian vows to destroy Israel are so deeply worrying. Supreme Leader Khamenei declared in 2010 that "Israel is a cancerous tumour," which must be "cut out," while at the same time, Defense Minister Vahidi referred to the "Zionist regime" and "the countdown to its extinction."

I think this should give pause to anyone who claims that the West and Iran are on the same moral level. When people believe that a quazi sharia Islamic regime and liberal democracy are on the same moral level (aka if we have nukes why can't they get them?)...then we are truly lost. Perhaps seeing how bad this can get is the only way to shock people into realizing that evil still exists in the world.

[kerouac]

(02-06-2012 01:16 PM)ao85 Wrote:  

If only we could believe in the best intentions of other countries. Unfortunately, Iran is not a responsible international actor.

Interestingly, the Persians are considered the reason the Jewish tribes were able to maintain their identity after the Babylonian captivity by some archeologists. Considering these same people who have for generations actually protected the Jews and considering them the next Nazi's is the most mind-boggling thing I can't comprehend. If the Israelis resort to war with Iran, they will lose their only potential friend in the region.

ao85 Wrote:

The difference is that Israel is a rational, at least somewhat responsible stakeholder in the world system.

I would actually argue that Israel is not a responsible stakeholder in the world system. I'd argue that Israel is an irresponsible non-stakeholder in the world system. Israel is a stakeholder in Israel, and Israel alone, with many instances of complete disregard for the "world system." Israel only participates in the world system to ensure its own survival, with little regard for the well-being of the rest of the world.

[ElJefe]

(02-06-2012 01:30 PM)kerouac Wrote:  

Interestingly, the Persians are considered the reason the Jewish tribes were able to maintain their identity after the Babylonian captivity by some archeologists. Considering these same people who have for generations actually protected the Jews and considering them the next Nazi's is the most mind-boggling thing I can't comprehend. If the Israelis resort to war with Iran, they will lose their only potential friend in the region.

I would actually argue that Israel is not a responsible stakeholder in the world system. I'd argue that Israel is an irresponsible non-stakeholder in the world system. Israel is a stakeholder in Israel, and Israel alone, with many instances of complete disregard for the "world system." Israel only participates in the world system to ensure its own survival, with little regard for the well-being of the rest of the world.

Buddy, the "Persians" bank Hezbollah and Hamas. Israel withdrew unilaterally from Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005 to demonstrate good faith. How was this repaid? Continued rocket attacks and ambushes of Israeli servicemen. So your first idea is a nice one, but garbage.

Iran is going to get nukes, and when they do, the price to stop them wreaking havoc is going to be 10x higher. They wreak havoc already, just be prepared for some exponential growth. American has total conventional superiority on the battle-field. All it takes is a few nukes and the price for stopping a maniac will no longer be measured in hundreds of Americans soldiers killed, but tens of thousands. Any Westerner should be appalled at the idea of us letting an avowed enemy attain nuclear weapons without a fight.

I respect that Iran wants to become a regional power, but I think also the world is a better place under Pax Americana and it works just fine - with all her military reserves, America has only ever deployed a fraction of her real military power.

Allowing an aggressive assent, we're just headed for a bloody repeat of 1914, except with nukes instead. With this in mind, we should do what it takes to destroy those plants and topple the priesthood.

This Israel is not responsible just doesn't match the historical record. How many nations have to fight non-stop Wars of Annihilation for several decades just because Arabs already colonized more than a dozen countries and are unwilling to compromise on the one? If any people ever deserved to be left alone, the Israelis do. There are no RIGHTS to land except whatever a people make up in order to justify their cause. Virtually everyone with a claim on Israel did not have ancestors there before 1900 - most Arabs are the descendants of Arab immigrants who moved there because of the economic boom created by Jewish immigrants. Most of them would be still be there if Arab leaders had chosen to be peaceful neighbors instead of bloody fools. They gambled, and lost. The people pay the price, yet the leaders are not held accountible because in dictatorships there is no accountability for failures. So they blame all their fucked up shit on the Jews instead and peddle The Protocols of the Elders of Zion so they don't have to reform.

The fact that they even consider making a peace given the number of times they've been stabbed in the back is incredible. That they just don't deport all Arabs and solve their problem that way is a demonstration of a level of humanity in Israeli society Arab societies simply don't have. The Knesset is full of Arab members making asses of themselves. In what other Arab societies are Jews allowed this? The hypocrisy is astounding.

[Hencredible Casanova]

@El Jefe. What Kerouac says is actually true. Even into the present day, Jews in Iran are treated relatively well. Roger Cohen of the NYT noted this observation in one of his more famous op-ed posts last year: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/opinion/23cohen.html

It was not without controversy from the Jewish diaspora.

You also make a lot of good points yourself. I've been to Israel and to most of the Arab states (including stateless Palestine). Secular society within Israel is among the most robust and tolerant in the world. Israeli-Arabs do not have to serve in the IDF and they receive affirmative action in employment and education.

In the Arab states, anti-Israel rhetoric is alarmingly high. Bookstores in major Arab cities often display anti-semitic texts like "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" with congratulatory introductions praising Hilter and written by Muslim scholars. There's also a culture that emphasizes conformity. You simply can't go against the mainstream view. If you have a sympathetic view towards Israelis in an Arab state, you will be ostracized for it, if not worse.

The Jewish faith preaches that Jews are the chosen people, so that naturally lends itself to people being able to express their ideas respectfully and openly. There are so many Israeli organizations advocating on behalf of Palestinian causes and there is vehement opposition to the current sitting government. You won't find a single Arab organization advocating on behalf of Israel.

That said, even the founder of modern Israel, David Ben-Gurion, said it is to be expected that the Arabs are not to make peace given the nature of how the State of Israel was founded.

Wrt Iran, it's in their best interest to establish a nuclear program.

Israel is believed to have weapons, but they won't even declare them. Why does Israel get to disobey every international law and regulation yet has the audacity to tell other countries how to behave? This is a double standard and precisely the reason why Iran is going to do what's in its best interest.

[Farmageddon]

When the brave youth of Iran finally do manage to overthrow their insane mullahs and institute a democratic, free, liberal society - trust me - I will be dragging out all the quotes from you guys who said the cabal of religious fundamentalists that control the country had every right to possess nuclear weapons. I eagerly look forward to that day.

And to the poster who said that the Persian people chose a theocracy due to American interference in Iranian affairs - I think you are forgetting the fact that every single segment of the population was involved in overthrowing the Shah. The Ayatollah essentially hi-jacked the revolution by executing anyone who disagreed with the implementation of a theocracy after his return - the very definition of a counter revolution. The population was not radicalized at that point but the religious had a monopoly of power by siding with elements in the army and intelligence services. I recommend the book, "Khomeni's Ghost" by Con Coughlin for more information on this subject. Fascinating read. Also, the radicalization of the Iranian people occurred after the revolution, not before. Iran, or Persia, leading up to the events in the late 1970's was fairly liberal, cultural, and open society - but of course with an autocrat as a ruler.

And I think all this talk about "Iran" being allowed to acquire nuclear weapons is one of the biggest smokescreens I have ever seen. The fundamentalist religious nutbags who control the country in no way represent the will of the Iranian people. And to speak of their nuclear program as some sort of insurance policy against being removed from power is also a moot point in regards to someone whose ideology holds suicide death as the highest honor.

[kosko]

(02-06-2012 01:16 PM)ao85 Wrote:  

(02-05-2012 03:12 PM)kosko Wrote:  

Of course you throw in the H bomb to sure up your weak arguments. Your shooting air balls bro.

If only we could believe in the best intentions of other countries. Unfortunately, Iran is not a responsible international actor.

There can be no other country as determined to whitewash the crimes of Nazi Germany as Iran. The depth of Iranian Holocaust rejection is clear. President Ahmadinejad has repeatedly denied the Holocaust, calling it a "big lie" in August of last year. There is apparent consensus on the issue in the higher echelons of the Iranian leadership. Ahmadinejad used a trip to Germany (where Holocaust denial is a crime) in 2007 to pointedly announce that he "cannot confirm or deny" the Holocaust. Infamously, in December 2006, the Iranian regime arranged an academic smoke-screen for deniers, organizing a conference "to review the global vision of the Holocaust."

On the face of it, Iran's Holocaust obsession makes little sense, given that it is a county both untouched and untainted by the horrors of Hitler. Yet, it should be a wake-up call to those who would give Iran a free pass. By denying that the darkest chapter in human history ever happened, Ahmadinejad and his cronies understand that they are leaving a chink of light for such depravity to return.

This is exactly why Iranian vows to destroy Israel are so deeply worrying. Supreme Leader Khamenei declared in 2010 that "Israel is a cancerous tumour," which must be "cut out," while at the same time, Defense Minister Vahidi referred to the "Zionist regime" and "the countdown to its extinction."

I think this should give pause to anyone who claims that the West and Iran are on the same moral level. When people believe that a quazi sharia Islamic regime and liberal democracy are on the same moral level (aka if we have nukes why can't they get them?)...then we are truly lost. Perhaps seeing how bad this can get is the only way to shock people into realizing that evil still exists in the world.

Air balls. You do realize 100million Native Americans were killed ff by Europeans? You do realize that Millions of Congolese were been killed off or mutilated by King Leopold... You do realize that East Timor was bombarded with bombs and there native population nearly completly wiped out do you? You do realize that the Holocust is not the only (or worst) instance of human fuckery onto a single group of people.

Stop with the H-bombs you are hijacking a thread with stuff that has no base for geo-political actions of today. If Israel was a true honest broker it would not be the aggressor in all of its conflicts. The Persians have no agressed on ANYBODY since the days of camels, sling shots, and fucking Elephants. The last time the Persians started a war with anybody was with the Indian Mongol Empire like 500 + years ago. Israel... well what 4 years ago?

How about the 10+ Hebrew prophets that are barred in Iran? How about the 34K+ Jews whom happily call Iran home? How about realizing NOBODY HAS ISSUES WITH THE JEWS! People have issues with Israels foolish polices which contradict itself and leave a whole population of people under direct occupation and attack.

(02-06-2012 02:46 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 01:30 PM)kerouac Wrote:  

Interestingly, the Persians are considered the reason the Jewish tribes were able to maintain their identity after the Babylonian captivity by some archeologists. Considering these same people who have for generations actually protected the Jews and considering them the next Nazi's is the most mind-boggling thing I can't comprehend. If the Israelis resort to war with Iran, they will lose their only potential friend in the region.

I would actually argue that Israel is not a responsible stakeholder in the world system. I'd argue that Israel is an irresponsible non-stakeholder in the world system. Israel is a stakeholder in Israel, and Israel alone, with many instances of complete disregard for the "world system." Israel only participates in the world system to ensure its own survival, with little regard for the well-being of the rest of the world. *Bingo* and they get angry when other sovereign nations do the same? Its a joke.

Buddy, the "Persians" bank Hezbollah and Hamas. Israel withdrew unilaterally from Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005 to demonstrate good faith. How was this repaid? Continued rocket attacks and ambushes of Israeli servicemen. So your first idea is a nice one, but garbage.

This is not true. Isreal could not advance any further then a few kilometers of the re-claimed southern borders of Lebanon. It was not "good faith" back in 00' it was simply a military stalemate as they could not re-penetrate the former occupied section that they held.

In 06' Arrogant Israel underestimated Lebanese resistance as they suffered the destruction of many of there military units it would of been a fools game to persue any more conflict. Lebanon laid in ruins but the missile attacks would of continued to rain down on dense populated Cities whiten Israel. Both sides claim they won, neither side couldn't take any more hits in the 06' conflict it would of been wreak less to peruse things further.

People forget how drastic that fuck up was, Remember the USA was going to strike Iran in 07' Israels job was to fuck up Lebanon and Syria leaving the USA (much stronger then) to go in for Persia. This did not pan out and now you have USA on life support looking to come to bat for its little brother Israel. Whom is eager to fight but wants none of the blowback.

Nether the USA or Israel will lay a hit on Iran, there is to much asymmetrical blowback to deal with. Syria is the target, if Israel can choke off Syria then it would directly hamper Lebanon also. Israel has talked about hitting Iran for years now and hasn't done shit, its a bluff.. the goal is Syria right now.

[kosko]

(02-06-2012 05:58 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  

When the brave youth of Iran finally do manage to overthrow their insane mullahs and institute a democratic, free, liberal society - trust me - I will be dragging out all the quotes from you guys who said the cabal of religious fundamentalists that control the country had every right to possess nuclear weapons. I eagerly look forward to that day.

And to the poster who said that the Persian people chose a theocracy due to American interference in Iranian affairs - I think you are forgetting the fact that every single segment of the population was involved in overthrowing the Shah. The Ayatollah essentially hi-jacked the revolution by executing anyone who disagreed with the implementation of a theocracy after his return - the very definition of a counter revolution. The population was not radicalized at that point but the religious had a monopoly of power by siding with elements in the army and intelligence services. I recommend the book, "Khomeni's Ghost" by Con Coughlin for more information on this subject. Fascinating read. Also, the radicalization of the Iranian people occurred after the revolution, not before. Iran, or Persia, leading up to the events in the late 1970's was fairly liberal, cultural, and open society - but of course with an autocrat as a ruler.

And I think all this talk about "Iran" being allowed to acquire nuclear weapons is one of the biggest smokescreens I have ever seen. The fundamentalist religious nutbags who control the country in no way represent the will of the Iranian people. And to speak of their nuclear program as some sort of insurance policy against being removed from power is also a moot point in regards to someone whose ideology holds suicide death as the highest honor.

What like America? Even my Country Canada is a fuking joke. We essentially have a dictator and out population is asleep like sheep. We are run by Americans and Executives in London via a branch of the Govt which nobody talks about but essentially has direct power and sway over all of our laws.

Look at foolish America and the EU. One a Corporate Fascist state the other a Techocracy in which business men and bureaucrats mull over every facet of EU peoples life and they say... "You be free and democratic ..just like us" What a fukin joke. Iran is no fairy tale but you talk of Persians like they are idiots. They are highly educated people we act in the west like they are too dumb to know whats good for them. Just like the Libya situation.. they knew what they were getting, these people we're educated abroad and were not isolated like people in North Korea. they knew What Gadaffi was about and the overwhelming majority supported him.

The Supreme leaders till maintains heavy support in Iran. Ahmadinejad has support among working people and the poor vs the Modern, Urban Iranian Yuppies whom are sick of his shit.

[bengalltigerr]

Good post kosko, repped!

[haywire]

Groundwork for the war?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/1...QZ20120213

[Anon-A-Moose]

America is really in a binder here. We have been for awhile. We buy shit, but we don't make anything. We're an information economy, yet only 38% of the pop has a bachelors or more. We have high unemployment but low social benefits. Our infrastructure is collapsing and we need jobs, but we don't employ the unemployed to fix it. And finally we make more jobs overseas than we do at home.

Besides which, the US public will want a casualty-free politically-correct war that plays out on CNN all nice. Unfortunately, war isn't a civil police action where we calmly explain why democracy is good. War is killing lots of people in disgusting ways. The "killing people thing" also costs absolutely mind-boggling amounts of money--Iraq cost us over $3 trillion dollars. We've spent more on conquering Iraq than Iraq was ever worth to begin with. Just picking one item, the cost of paving 80 miles of road is the same as one new US M1A2 tank with the urban combat pack. To drive down that 80-mile stretch of road in the tank would cost you $2,000 in gas and maintenance (just in labor). Multiply that figure by the 1,000-2,000 tanks needed, ignoring spare parts and the fact that the tank can be destroyed by a few $200 antitank missiles, used to capture mostly tiny villages in the middle of nowhere, and you see why it's a very foolish enterprise in our economic state.

Is Iran a tinpot dictatorship? Yes. Will someone need to take their government out? Probably. But now is simply not the time.

Also, Jewish-Arab coexistence is intrinsic in both religions. The Arabs used to tax jews, no more. Israel itself is the main problem. But the Arabs don't, culturally, understand moderation. That being said, letting Iran get "the bomb" is a good idea. Everyone saber-rattles but the thought of reducing civilization to ash makes stomachs turn. North Korean (supposedly) has the bomb now too, as do the Israelis, and yet, nothing. The USSR had it in the early 50s, yet, nothing. The US has had it for years, yet, nothing. WW3 never happened, because suddenly large-scale military action is impossible when all combatants are holding loaded guns to each others heads, and one squeezed trigger will wipe out everyone. Holy war looks a lot less impressive when you realize you could accidentally wipe your entire culture off the face of the earth in the space of several minutes.

[Pilgrim37]

[kerouac]

(02-13-2012 07:37 PM)Anon-A-Moose Wrote:  

That being said, letting Iran get "the bomb" is a good idea. Everyone saber-rattles but the thought of reducing civilization to ash makes stomachs turn. North Korean (supposedly) has the bomb now too, as do the Israelis, and yet, nothing. The USSR had it in the early 50s, yet, nothing. The US has had it for years, yet, nothing. WW3 never happened, because suddenly large-scale military action is impossible when all combatants are holding loaded guns to each others heads, and one squeezed trigger will wipe out everyone. Holy war looks a lot less impressive when you realize you could accidentally wipe your entire culture off the face of the earth in the space of several minutes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2...al_complex

During some period, the United States (or influential powers within the United States) decided to become the premier war-technology and industry nation in the world. This is the path that was taken, and our economy is tied deeply with the Military Industrial Complex. Unless something changes, something that will allow the United States to maintain its pre-eminent position in the world, then we're going to be dealing with the tragedy of America engaging in war with distant parts of the world for a very long time.