[Excelsior]

(10-21-2012 07:42 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Not true. The best civilizations have been created by law givers that best understood the culture of the people they were dealing with, and created appropriate laws in response to the traditions already in place in order to maximize prosperity.

On the contrary, what I said is very true. Governments regularly encourage, push, and force developments that serve their compelling interest, and most of modern civilization is based upon this practice.

This does not mean that they do not also take into account any understanding of the cultures they are dealing with. These practices are not mutually exclusive-the promotion/pushing/forcing of a compelling government interest can always be planned to take into account any entrenched realities on the ground, as we'll soon see that AA does.

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No government is created in a vacuum, and those that have tried have failed miserably (i.e. see Communist regimes).

Ok.

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American culture was founded on the premise that all men have the same basic rights: property, liberty, and life.

A premise, yes.

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AA is in direct opposition to the idea that everyone has an equal shot at property,

...assuming that the groups who benefit most from AA gain a net "leg up" over other groups as a result of it (not backed by the numbers) and were not, in fact, disadvantaged in the first place (well backed by the numbers).

Again, you assume equality where there is none, and mistake AA for a cause of inequality instead of the symptom that it actually is.

AA targets groups that do not, in fact, have an equal shot at any of the lovely ideals you mentioned above, and seeks to help them attain a more equitable stake in the nation's progress.
In doing this, it falls perfectly in line with your stated principle by applying it to a larger share of the American populace who, in the undisturbed state of American nature, tend to be (and historically always have been) denied the "equal shot" you hold so dear.

An environment without AA would more closely parallel a reality that contrasts your stated ideal.

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since certain groups will be excluded in favor of other groups in the name of racist legislation.

Which groups are "excluded" by AA?

In any case, what you said further above is correct-the best lawmakers are those who understand the nature of their society and govern accordingly. You estimate that those who support AA are operating in contrast to this principle, but that conclusion can only be made if you take an inaccurate (or, in your case, overly idealistic) understanding of the reality of American culture.

The lawmakers who promote and support AA understand something that many (including yourself) apparently do not: that the American culture is not, in fact, about equality, despite statements to the contrary. They understand that ours is a society founded on the basis of inequality, perpetuated by the encouragement of inequality, and permeated at all levels by said inequality. They also understand that race is at the center of this inequality, above all other factors.

They treat your claims with regards to the "cultural underpinning" of actual equality in America as they should be treated-like idealistic fluff. They realize that the reality on the ground is (and always has been) about continued inequality, and promote AA as a means with which to address that truth.

In doing this, they show a very strong understanding of the culture they are dealing with: a culture of inequality, not equality.

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Now, even if we agree that equality is bullshit (which it mostly is), it does not change the fact that American culture is based on equality and it would be wrong to change this basic cultural underpinning.

Nobody is "changing" anything. People are merely acknowledging the reality that this "basic cultural underpinning" doesn't actually underpin anything, or even really exist outside of idealized portrayals of this society.

As I just mentioned, American culture is based on inequality, not equality. Your understanding is one that only exists in an idealized narrative, and this stated ideal can be considered (and has been considered by most American lawmakers until recent times who have ignored it in practice) pure fluff.

The existence of AA is a recognition of that reality-that groups (particularly racial ones) are not held or treated as equals, and that the promotion of any means with which to address this reality is of compelling interest to the United States Government going forward.

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AA goes against this cultural premise, by keeping lesser qualified individuals in place of higher qualified ones.

AA supports this idealized premise by giving groups that have historically been treated unequally a more proportional stake in the future of a country which, in about 40-50 years, they will come to dominate demographically. This is as close to "equality" as any of these groups have been during their tenure in this nation.

Your idealized premise is further discredited by the reality on the ground that sees less qualified individuals promoted for reasons not strictly based on merit, regardless of the presence of AA.

You state the AA goes against this cultural premise. The reality is that American culture goes against this stated premise. The non-racial meritocracy is not here, and getting rid of AA will not bring it to you.