@Noir
First off, thanks for taking the time to respond. I am honestly trying to try to understand and accept the position you and a couple of others are taking.
In response to what you wrote:
a. I agree virginity is a big issue to girls. I am not entirely oblivious and walking through life with no sense. I just think it is a case by case basis. I am dealing with another virgin and I think there is as close to zero percent chance that I will break her hymen as possible, even if she begs me to. That is because she comes from a very conservative culture and since I know that I won't marry her I don't want her to have trouble finding a man or to be attacked by her family because I wanted to get laid. The girl that I referenced at the beginning of this thread, however, is an entirely different issue. I have enough sense to be able to tell the difference, and since I don't agree with your set in stone rule, it is a non issue for me. I am just trying to understand because if I am in fact wrong I want to know why and change my outlook and actions.
b. I agree about how being a good guy is defined. I say I'm a good guy because by my definition I know I am. I get the comment that I have a good heart more than anything else, and it isn't because I'm a cuck beta or whatever. I don't personally know anyone that I think has a kinder heart than me. Since this girl feels the way she does and because I took her virginity I have decided to give her my time and money and energy so I do in fact leave her better off than when I found her. On Sunday I even left my family and got up at 7 am to go pick her up to take her to the doctor and spent about 5 hours with her. I am not saying that makes me a saint, but as far as I am concerned I am a good guy.
c. I might have misspoken. I wasn't trying to say few women come into contact with guys for the right reason. I was trying to say that few virgins, at least in the US, end up in an entirely successful LTR with the guy that takes their virginity. My thought process is more akin to the following. Let's say a virgin gets with a guy and they get married and have two kids and the relationship falls apart. He is abusive physically and emotionally, he doesn't do his part financially, he cheats on her, and when he leaves he doesn't properly take care of his kids. Let's say in this example the couple originally intended to stay together forever. Now another guy comes along and takes a girl's virginity with no intention of marrying her or even staying with her long term past a few months. But in this case the guy makes the girl feel so many amazing emotions and feelings that she hasn't ever experienced and now she has a heightened view of the good in humanity and men. Which is a better scenario in your opinion? Which scenario leaves the girl better off and gives her a better view of men as well?
d. I agree that the morality issue is something different than what you were getting at, and the example I gave above doesn't address your argument. It should be clear at this point in time I do not understand or accept your version of morality (although I am open to it), and I think reality is far more in my favor than in yours. An abstract notion of morality is fine and good, but to me reality is what dictates how I should move through life. Let's say we both believe in Jesus very strongly. To really break it down beyond reason (and I am not saying this is all he was trying to tell humanity) let us say he said when someone hits you, offer then the other cheek to hit as well. Now someone kills your mother viciously and for no reason. Will you turn the other cheek and let him kill your father as well? Should we allow a murder to run around because we forgive him? My answer would be no, not because I don't believe in Jesus' teaching, but because the nature of this world is such that I believe we have to do certain things that are contrary to our abstract notions of morality and the way the world should be. So again, I want to understand your morality, but I still don't see why it is relevant or useful at all.
e. I know no one is here to convince me. No one here owes anything to me. Maybe I misspoke. I should have said if you feel passionately about this matter and care enough to potentially change my mind for what you perceive to be the better, let's continue a dialogue. If not, that is fine. All I'm saying is if so, I'm willing to listen. At this point if over the next 10 years I am presented with 100 more virgins that I don't feel I will be destroying the lives of or hurting, and in my view if I would be leaving them better off, then I would still continue with what I did with this girl. If that is unwise or immoral to you, please, convince me otherwise. If you "aren't here to convince" me, then so be it.
f. You must have misunderstood. I did not say I would try what you are calling blackmail on this particular girl or on any virgin. I was just throwing out the idea as a possible way to get rid of a certain type of girl. I don't think demanding a certain type of girl to have a threesome with me or else we need to be open to other people is sociopathic. So are you saying that if I meet a girl and get serious with her and she is only open to vanilla sex I am supposed to have vanilla sex for the rest of my life? Like 365 days of missionary for 30 years? I also think it is unwise and ridiculous to tattoo on my forehead that a threesome is required to be with me (saying it very early on and upfront). Should I never ask for anal sex? Never ask to try bondage? Never ask for a blowjob? I think you are entirely wrong about it being blackmail, I just want certain things as a man and as a human and I have the right to ask for them. If she agrees then I get what I want, and if she disagrees she should find someone who better fits who she is.
Speaking of blackmail and ransom, I honestly think your position on virginity is 100% blackmail and ransom. If I want to have sex with a girl and she is a virgin, I have to either entirely forget about it or I have to potentially commit to 90 years of life with her (lets say we meet at 20 and both die well beyond the average age of death)? I have to be willing to give at least half of the wealth I bust my ass for, and in many cases more, just because she hasn't had a dick in her? If she even had one dick in her you are saying it is entirely appropriate to disregard everything you have been arguing? You don't think this is the most epic blackmail of all time? Because I do.
About cutting my dick off and all that. What culture would this be that you are saying condones this? I am from an Iranian background. I think we can all agree that Iran, at the present time, is a pretty conservative culture with regards to sexual relationships. In "my culture" there are tons of guys that chase women all day and try to have sex with as many women as they can. There are plenty of guys that are willing to date and have sex with a monogamous girl outside of marriage. There are also plenty of guys that would do what you said you would do if I had sex with a family member outside of marriage. This is one of the more conservative cultures in the world, and there is no consensus on what is culturally appropriate. Are you saying your culture as in you are from the most conservative village in Saudi Arabia? Maybe so, but I guess that would also mean that if I steal a loaf of bread from a rich man to feed my starving children then I should have my hands cut off and then not be able to provide for my family for a few dollars worth of bread.
I really don't think you are being serious about that violent comment. I say that because this is the internet and people say shit like that a lot, and I hope you have more sense than that. You honestly think it is wise to kill a man, go to prison for life, and potentially never be able to hug your daughter and help raise her just because a guy didn't commit to her and took her virginity? This is exactly why your morality doesn't make sense. Again, abstraction vs. reality.
Honesty up front vs. getting rid of a girl is a different issue. I think honestly can be a great way of living. In fact, I decided for years to only speak truth to the extent that I could. Again, in reality it isn't the way to go to put it lightly.
I am seeing many girls at the moment. Basically 90% of them would have cut the interaction off very early on had I told them the entire truth, which is that I would be happy to fuck you on the first date and only see you as long as I'm in town and if and when I feel like it. That would only leave me with 10%, and that is after doing tons and tons of approaches that didn't amount to anything. I intend to get better at this and move towards being a better man as quickly as possible, which is the real reason I am going the route I am. But look, if you want to make an omelette you need to crack a few eggs.
My goal is, has been, and always will be to leave the girl better off than when I found her. If I thought I was doing otherwise with this virgin, then I wouldn't have slept with her.
But once again, I just brought up the virgin to give context to the real reason why I started this thread. I really wasn't looking for any opinions on virginity, but I am an open minded guy and am willing to listen and change my ways if I think it will be better for myself, the women I know, and the world at large.
First off, thanks for taking the time to respond. I am honestly trying to try to understand and accept the position you and a couple of others are taking.
In response to what you wrote:
a. I agree virginity is a big issue to girls. I am not entirely oblivious and walking through life with no sense. I just think it is a case by case basis. I am dealing with another virgin and I think there is as close to zero percent chance that I will break her hymen as possible, even if she begs me to. That is because she comes from a very conservative culture and since I know that I won't marry her I don't want her to have trouble finding a man or to be attacked by her family because I wanted to get laid. The girl that I referenced at the beginning of this thread, however, is an entirely different issue. I have enough sense to be able to tell the difference, and since I don't agree with your set in stone rule, it is a non issue for me. I am just trying to understand because if I am in fact wrong I want to know why and change my outlook and actions.
b. I agree about how being a good guy is defined. I say I'm a good guy because by my definition I know I am. I get the comment that I have a good heart more than anything else, and it isn't because I'm a cuck beta or whatever. I don't personally know anyone that I think has a kinder heart than me. Since this girl feels the way she does and because I took her virginity I have decided to give her my time and money and energy so I do in fact leave her better off than when I found her. On Sunday I even left my family and got up at 7 am to go pick her up to take her to the doctor and spent about 5 hours with her. I am not saying that makes me a saint, but as far as I am concerned I am a good guy.
c. I might have misspoken. I wasn't trying to say few women come into contact with guys for the right reason. I was trying to say that few virgins, at least in the US, end up in an entirely successful LTR with the guy that takes their virginity. My thought process is more akin to the following. Let's say a virgin gets with a guy and they get married and have two kids and the relationship falls apart. He is abusive physically and emotionally, he doesn't do his part financially, he cheats on her, and when he leaves he doesn't properly take care of his kids. Let's say in this example the couple originally intended to stay together forever. Now another guy comes along and takes a girl's virginity with no intention of marrying her or even staying with her long term past a few months. But in this case the guy makes the girl feel so many amazing emotions and feelings that she hasn't ever experienced and now she has a heightened view of the good in humanity and men. Which is a better scenario in your opinion? Which scenario leaves the girl better off and gives her a better view of men as well?
d. I agree that the morality issue is something different than what you were getting at, and the example I gave above doesn't address your argument. It should be clear at this point in time I do not understand or accept your version of morality (although I am open to it), and I think reality is far more in my favor than in yours. An abstract notion of morality is fine and good, but to me reality is what dictates how I should move through life. Let's say we both believe in Jesus very strongly. To really break it down beyond reason (and I am not saying this is all he was trying to tell humanity) let us say he said when someone hits you, offer then the other cheek to hit as well. Now someone kills your mother viciously and for no reason. Will you turn the other cheek and let him kill your father as well? Should we allow a murder to run around because we forgive him? My answer would be no, not because I don't believe in Jesus' teaching, but because the nature of this world is such that I believe we have to do certain things that are contrary to our abstract notions of morality and the way the world should be. So again, I want to understand your morality, but I still don't see why it is relevant or useful at all.
e. I know no one is here to convince me. No one here owes anything to me. Maybe I misspoke. I should have said if you feel passionately about this matter and care enough to potentially change my mind for what you perceive to be the better, let's continue a dialogue. If not, that is fine. All I'm saying is if so, I'm willing to listen. At this point if over the next 10 years I am presented with 100 more virgins that I don't feel I will be destroying the lives of or hurting, and in my view if I would be leaving them better off, then I would still continue with what I did with this girl. If that is unwise or immoral to you, please, convince me otherwise. If you "aren't here to convince" me, then so be it.
f. You must have misunderstood. I did not say I would try what you are calling blackmail on this particular girl or on any virgin. I was just throwing out the idea as a possible way to get rid of a certain type of girl. I don't think demanding a certain type of girl to have a threesome with me or else we need to be open to other people is sociopathic. So are you saying that if I meet a girl and get serious with her and she is only open to vanilla sex I am supposed to have vanilla sex for the rest of my life? Like 365 days of missionary for 30 years? I also think it is unwise and ridiculous to tattoo on my forehead that a threesome is required to be with me (saying it very early on and upfront). Should I never ask for anal sex? Never ask to try bondage? Never ask for a blowjob? I think you are entirely wrong about it being blackmail, I just want certain things as a man and as a human and I have the right to ask for them. If she agrees then I get what I want, and if she disagrees she should find someone who better fits who she is.
Speaking of blackmail and ransom, I honestly think your position on virginity is 100% blackmail and ransom. If I want to have sex with a girl and she is a virgin, I have to either entirely forget about it or I have to potentially commit to 90 years of life with her (lets say we meet at 20 and both die well beyond the average age of death)? I have to be willing to give at least half of the wealth I bust my ass for, and in many cases more, just because she hasn't had a dick in her? If she even had one dick in her you are saying it is entirely appropriate to disregard everything you have been arguing? You don't think this is the most epic blackmail of all time? Because I do.
About cutting my dick off and all that. What culture would this be that you are saying condones this? I am from an Iranian background. I think we can all agree that Iran, at the present time, is a pretty conservative culture with regards to sexual relationships. In "my culture" there are tons of guys that chase women all day and try to have sex with as many women as they can. There are plenty of guys that are willing to date and have sex with a monogamous girl outside of marriage. There are also plenty of guys that would do what you said you would do if I had sex with a family member outside of marriage. This is one of the more conservative cultures in the world, and there is no consensus on what is culturally appropriate. Are you saying your culture as in you are from the most conservative village in Saudi Arabia? Maybe so, but I guess that would also mean that if I steal a loaf of bread from a rich man to feed my starving children then I should have my hands cut off and then not be able to provide for my family for a few dollars worth of bread.
I really don't think you are being serious about that violent comment. I say that because this is the internet and people say shit like that a lot, and I hope you have more sense than that. You honestly think it is wise to kill a man, go to prison for life, and potentially never be able to hug your daughter and help raise her just because a guy didn't commit to her and took her virginity? This is exactly why your morality doesn't make sense. Again, abstraction vs. reality.
Honesty up front vs. getting rid of a girl is a different issue. I think honestly can be a great way of living. In fact, I decided for years to only speak truth to the extent that I could. Again, in reality it isn't the way to go to put it lightly.
I am seeing many girls at the moment. Basically 90% of them would have cut the interaction off very early on had I told them the entire truth, which is that I would be happy to fuck you on the first date and only see you as long as I'm in town and if and when I feel like it. That would only leave me with 10%, and that is after doing tons and tons of approaches that didn't amount to anything. I intend to get better at this and move towards being a better man as quickly as possible, which is the real reason I am going the route I am. But look, if you want to make an omelette you need to crack a few eggs.
My goal is, has been, and always will be to leave the girl better off than when I found her. If I thought I was doing otherwise with this virgin, then I wouldn't have slept with her.
But once again, I just brought up the virgin to give context to the real reason why I started this thread. I really wasn't looking for any opinions on virginity, but I am an open minded guy and am willing to listen and change my ways if I think it will be better for myself, the women I know, and the world at large.