For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Printable Version

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - H1N1 - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

@about the "do you need training to use a knife": i would say yes. H1N1, i agree with you that aggression count for a lot (which is why we are already at a disadvantage against the migrants), but in your example the boxer doesnt necessarily know how to deal with a knife. Quite the contrary, he might be inclined to rely too much on his boxing that he forgot the natural reflexes: grab the knife and try to wrestle the hell out of it.

Try this with your friends who are untrained. Back them into a corner with a practice knife and try stabbing them. It will turn into a wrestling match I guarantee you. I did this all the time and though I won, I actually won using the empty hand and my knees, and I would got cut a lot too had it been a real knife. This is given that I have decent hand to hand training and SOME knife training.

Against multiple DETERMINED, AGGRESSIVE attackers you are done.

Using a knife and defending a knife attack are different things. To use it, you need nothing other than aggression and bad intentions, it'll get the job done just fine. To defend against it, you need to be acquainted with certain realities about violence, and a shit load of luck. If you are attacked by surprise by someone who knows how to use a knife, you are dead. If you are attacked by multiple determined assailants with knives, you are dead, whatever your close quarter weapon is (unless it's a pistol with significant stopping power - you'd be relying on an element of luck with 9mm at close range).

What I'd encourage you to do, rather than using a practice knife with your friends, is to use a sharpie. I promise you that your wrestling match, you unarmed and your friend with a knife (sharpie), ends with you dead every time, unless you already have complete control of the knife hand, and can guarantee his free hand is not drawing another weapon. You think you would have got cut a lot. The reality is you would have died a lot. The defense against a knife attack is to run. If you can't run, the aim is to ensure every strike of the knife is non-lethal, which basically means you're trying to take everything on the top of your forearm. If you're getting hit anywhere else, especially in a frenzy, you are dying a lot. The only defense against a knife in the hands of a killer is to be similarly armed or not there in the first place.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Going strong - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

@Going Strong: that would not be a practical weapon bearing it being difficult to deploy, especially in crowded place like the metro. Having lived in Paris you know how this is.

... the point is, if you have to draw your weapon from your backpack its already too late. It needs to be on your person all the time. Only a knife, knuckle brass or small pepper spray fit this description.

However, the ice pick is awesome for home defense. I'm actually thinking about getting one for this reason. Its small blade allows it to be used through small spaces like a blocked door/window, and it can be used as a lever when needed.

Yes, the ice-axe would require time to deploy, and has to be hidden in a backpack (or possibly on you, but of course it would be awkward when sitting or even walking, I mean, what with the handle in your pant-leg and the protruding blade under a jacket)... but, once again, in a suburban train (RER) situation at night in the 9-3, it'd be something good to have in someone's backpack... But anyway, in the Parisian metro, I agree, the ice-axe would not be handy. (And well, you're informed and cautious enough never to take the RER at night towards a banlieue, without doubt)

Concerning the knife: I think the most important part is how to hold it, while waiting for an attack. The way you hold it then will not only protect you from a disarming move (from your opponent), but also show your adversary that you know how to use a knife and are probably a guy better left alone...

Bad knife preparation postures:



even this one is rather bad even though it looks quite threatening:

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Going strong - 01-07-2016

And now, good knife preparation postures, stances:

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - H1N1 - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:39 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

@Going Strong: that would not be a practical weapon baring it being difficult to deploy, especially in crowded place like the metro. Having lived in Paris you know how this is.

... the point is, if you have to draw your weapon from your backpack its already too late. It needs to be on your person all the time. Only a knife, knuckle brass or small pepper spray fit this description.

However, the ice pick is awesome for home defense. I'm actually thinking about getting one for this reason. Its small blade allows it to be used through small spaces like a blocked door/window, and it can be used as a lever when needed.

Yes, the ice-axe would require time to deploy, and has to be hidden in a backpack (or possibly on you, but of course it would be awkward when sitting or even walking, I mean, what with the handle in your pant-leg and the protruding blade under a jacket)... but, once again, in a suburban train (RER) situation at night in the 9-3, it'd be something good to have in someone's backpack... But anyway, in the Parisian metro, I agree, the ice-axe would not be handy. (And well, you're informed and cautious enough never to take the RER at night towards a banlieue, without doubt)

Concerning the knife: I think the most important part is how to hold it, while waiting for an attack. The way you hold it then will not only protect you from a disarming move (from your opponent), but also show your adversary that you know how to use a knife and are probably a guy better left alone...

Bad knife preparation postures:



even this one is rather bad even though it looks quite threatening:

Respectfully I'd disagree. You should never posture with a weapon or draw it as a deterrent. Have a firm set of principles in your mind long before you find yourself in that situation. Rehearse it in your mind. If you draw your weapon, it is to use it, and to use it effectively, which means concealing its presence as long as possible whilst having full control of it. If you pull it and you are expecting your opponent to run, or back down, you are in the wrong mindset for using a weapon, and have no business deploying it.

As far as correct posture for using it goes - a pronounced boxers crouch is typically favoured by serious knife fighters, as it provides more protection for the vital organs. The knife is always held firmly with all fingers and thumb on the handle in the rear hand. The lead hand is used to distract, blind and grab your opponent, so that he does not see the knife strike coming. Pointy end goes in the baddy, don't slash, stab twist and rip.

Edit: re: your post on good postures, personally only the last one looks sensible. The other two are held to slash or stab downwards, both of which provide far greater opportunity for blocking than the straightforward method demonstrated in the last photo.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Dalaran1991 - 01-07-2016

@Going Strong:

A bitch with a knife = a violently rape and mutilated bitch unless you are in a Hollywood movie.

Those others are good posture. I remember sitting next to a cop on leave during a bus ride from NYC, and he tells me if he ever sees a guy holding a knife in a high, ice pick grip, he knows he is done. Guy got some terrible scars on his arm.

Though if a guy is brandishing his knife instead of attacking, he doesnt really want to kill you. Give him what he needs and get the fuck out of there...

@H1N1: agree. All this to say just how dangerous things are getting. Knife are easy to get, so you are damn sure a ton of those migrants will have knives as well. Thats why range is so damn important.

What about shock prods? Doubt those are legal in France though....

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Lothario - 01-07-2016

Couldn't help it, No offense to non-gun bros

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - H1N1 - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:52 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

What about shock prods? Doubt those are legal in France though....

Are you going to test its effectiveness on yourself? Do you have a 250lb mate who'll let you try it on him? Are you going to take the seller's word for it that it'll incapacitate an adult male silverback gorilla? What do you do when you find out when you come to use it that it's a gimmick, or a mild irritant, rather than something that incapacitates. Certain things are fundamental - shut off the respiratory system, the nervous system, or the circulatory system, and matey is going to have a rough old day at the office. Prod him with your zappy wand and he might just take it of you and stick it up your arse. If you're going to die in the gutter, you do not want to suffer the indignity of night-stick sodomy before you go.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Going strong - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:47 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:39 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

@Going Strong: that would not be a practical weapon baring it being difficult to deploy, especially in crowded place like the metro. Having lived in Paris you know how this is.

... the point is, if you have to draw your weapon from your backpack its already too late. It needs to be on your person all the time. Only a knife, knuckle brass or small pepper spray fit this description.

However, the ice pick is awesome for home defense. I'm actually thinking about getting one for this reason. Its small blade allows it to be used through small spaces like a blocked door/window, and it can be used as a lever when needed.

Yes, the ice-axe would require time to deploy, and has to be hidden in a backpack (or possibly on you, but of course it would be awkward when sitting or even walking, I mean, what with the handle in your pant-leg and the protruding blade under a jacket)... but, once again, in a suburban train (RER) situation at night in the 9-3, it'd be something good to have in someone's backpack... But anyway, in the Parisian metro, I agree, the ice-axe would not be handy. (And well, you're informed and cautious enough never to take the RER at night towards a banlieue, without doubt)

Concerning the knife: I think the most important part is how to hold it, while waiting for an attack. The way you hold it then will not only protect you from a disarming move (from your opponent), but also show your adversary that you know how to use a knife and are probably a guy better left alone...

Bad knife preparation postures:



even this one is rather bad even though it looks quite threatening:

Respectfully I'd disagree. You should never posture with a weapon or draw it as a deterrent. Have a firm set of principles in your mind long before you find yourself in that situation. Rehearse it in your mind. If you draw your weapon, it is to use it, and to use it effectively, which means concealing its presence as long as possible whilst having full control of it. If you pull it and you are expecting your opponent to run, or back down, you are in the wrong mindset for using a weapon, and have no business deploying it.

As far as correct posture for using it goes - a pronounced boxers crouch is typically favoured by serious knife fighters, as it provides more protection for the vital organs. The knife is always held firmly with all fingers and thumb on the handle in the rear hand. The lead hand is used to distract, blind and grab your opponent, so that he does not see the knife strike coming. Pointy end goes in the baddy, don't slash, stab twist and rip.

Edit: re: your post on good postures, personally only the last one looks sensible. The other two are held to slash or stab downwards, both of which provide far greater opportunity for blocking than the straightforward method demonstrated in the last photo.

I agree with the principle (only drawing a weapon when you are absolutely decided to use it without hesitation) described in your post, but, I'd say it's only a principle... in actual modern life in the West, you have to try your best not to seriously wound an opponent. For fear of the Law and police. So, I'd say if you live in France or Germany, you might draw a weapon to threaten your adversary, but hoping not to have to go all the way... (but still, trusting your resolve enough to use it if he or they jump at you, in spite of your displaying of a weapon).

As to the "pronounced boxers crouch" that I pictured I think in the second pic of my "bad stances", I was warned against this very posture, because it will leave you open to the best anti-knife protective move: the sweeping leg kick from left to right (against a right-handed knife-holder), which might very well kick the knife from your low-held hand:

No knife should be held at a low level, to avoid a leg kick from an adversary (at shoulder level, only a very very good martial expert can hit you, frankly).

As to my "good postures" being only for slashing: it's my point exactly: one doesn't want to actually kill a mugger by piercing his body (witnesses and cameras are everywhere), one wants to slash and shock the mugger, and escape.

Edit: relevant to this thread: thread-50253...pid1186305

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Parzival - 01-07-2016

When you use a knife and injury or even kill the other person, mostly you spend some time behind bar. A knife is not even seen by law as a defence weapon. Even when you never pull out the blade - like on a one hand knife - its seen as a lethal weapon. A kubotan is a better choice. When you use a knife, stab down to top. Not top to down. Or slice. In some cases a guy dies from a single stab because organs get hurt and in other cases someone get stabbed multiple times and make it. That a court will judge in your favour when you used a knife will be very very rare. No matter how much you thing your self defence was legal.

About testing and training. Either weapons or self defence. Your mind will be always different. Your body know the situation is not real. An attacker on drugs, crazy or whatever rage can handle more then you ever can simulate in a training. When you see a knife you better run, not even dare to try to kick or grab it. For me this is all bullshit. Most will get hit by the knife. A good book is Meditations on Violence. There are real life situation and how to prepare your mind, the mindset of attacker and so on.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - H1N1 - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 06:01 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:47 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:39 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2016 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

@Going Strong: that would not be a practical weapon baring it being difficult to deploy, especially in crowded place like the metro. Having lived in Paris you know how this is.

... the point is, if you have to draw your weapon from your backpack its already too late. It needs to be on your person all the time. Only a knife, knuckle brass or small pepper spray fit this description.

However, the ice pick is awesome for home defense. I'm actually thinking about getting one for this reason. Its small blade allows it to be used through small spaces like a blocked door/window, and it can be used as a lever when needed.

Yes, the ice-axe would require time to deploy, and has to be hidden in a backpack (or possibly on you, but of course it would be awkward when sitting or even walking, I mean, what with the handle in your pant-leg and the protruding blade under a jacket)... but, once again, in a suburban train (RER) situation at night in the 9-3, it'd be something good to have in someone's backpack... But anyway, in the Parisian metro, I agree, the ice-axe would not be handy. (And well, you're informed and cautious enough never to take the RER at night towards a banlieue, without doubt)

Concerning the knife: I think the most important part is how to hold it, while waiting for an attack. The way you hold it then will not only protect you from a disarming move (from your opponent), but also show your adversary that you know how to use a knife and are probably a guy better left alone...

Bad knife preparation postures:



even this one is rather bad even though it looks quite threatening:

Respectfully I'd disagree. You should never posture with a weapon or draw it as a deterrent. Have a firm set of principles in your mind long before you find yourself in that situation. Rehearse it in your mind. If you draw your weapon, it is to use it, and to use it effectively, which means concealing its presence as long as possible whilst having full control of it. If you pull it and you are expecting your opponent to run, or back down, you are in the wrong mindset for using a weapon, and have no business deploying it.

As far as correct posture for using it goes - a pronounced boxers crouch is typically favoured by serious knife fighters, as it provides more protection for the vital organs. The knife is always held firmly with all fingers and thumb on the handle in the rear hand. The lead hand is used to distract, blind and grab your opponent, so that he does not see the knife strike coming. Pointy end goes in the baddy, don't slash, stab twist and rip.

Edit: re: your post on good postures, personally only the last one looks sensible. The other two are held to slash or stab downwards, both of which provide far greater opportunity for blocking than the straightforward method demonstrated in the last photo.

I agree with the principle (only drawing a weapon when you are absolutely decided to use it without hesitation) described in your post, but, I'd say it's only a principle... in actual modern life in the West, you have to try your best not to seriously wound an opponent. For fear of the Law and police. So, I'd say if you live in France or Germany, you might draw a weapon to threaten your adversary, but hoping not to have to go all the way... (but still, trusting your resolve enough to use it if he or they jump at you, in spite of your displaying of a weapon).

As to the "pronounced boxers crouch" that I pictured I think in the second pic of my "bad stances", I was warned against this very posture, because it will leave you open to the best anti-knife protective move: the sweeping leg kick from left to right (against a right-handed knife-holder), which might very well kick the knife from your low-held hand:

No knife should be held at a low level, to avoid a leg kick from an adversary (at shoulder level, only a very very good martial expert can hit you, frankly).

As to my "good postures" being only for slashing: it's my point exactly: one doesn't want to actually kill a mugger by piercing his body (witnesses and cameras are everywhere), one wants to slash and shock the mugger, and escape.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I believe what you have just described to be the perfect blueprint for getting yourself killed. I'll PM you some further, limited explanation, but a public forum is no place for this. Respectfully, I'm bowing out.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - K Galt - 01-07-2016

Concerning the knife: I think the most important part is how to hold it, while waiting for an attack.

The most important part is knowing how to use it...aka training. If you don't know how to really use a knife, you have no business carrying one for self defense. Furthermore, I've seen knife fighters use every position, stance, posture and grip shown in the pics in this thread. None of them are inherently good or bad, each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I believe what you have just described to be the perfect blueprint for getting yourself killed.

Agreed.

Never pull a weapon of any kind unless you're prepared to use it to it's full potential.

...in actual modern life in the West, you have to try your best not to seriously wound an opponent.

North, South, East or West, you don't pull a knife unless you are fully prepared to kill with it.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried out by 6.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - cascadecombo - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 09:47 PM)K Galt Wrote:  

Concerning the knife: I think the most important part is how to hold it, while waiting for an attack.

The most important part is knowing how to use it...aka training. If you don't know how to really use a knife, you have no business carrying one for self defense. Furthermore, I've seen knife fighters use every position, stance, posture and grip shown in the pics in this thread. None of them are inherently good or bad, each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I believe what you have just described to be the perfect blueprint for getting yourself killed.

Agreed.

Never pull a weapon of any kind unless you're prepared to use it to it's full potential.

...in actual modern life in the West, you have to try your best not to seriously wound an opponent.

North, South, East or West, you don't pull a knife unless you are fully prepared to kill with it.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried out by 6.

That's one of the biggest things about this thread that seems to be getting avoided. Talking about stances and such seems pointless. If a gang of guys plans to jump you and you pull a knife then expect to have several knives pulled on you as well as having rocks thrown or anything.

In my idea of an imperfect world, if you are going to brandish a weapon you need to be using it within an instant else your opponents start figuring out a strategy against your threat. Otherwise you are trying to use it for scare value and might as well be holding a replica gun and hoping they shit their pants and run away.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - mickeyd - 01-07-2016

Without the option of obtaining a gun, your only choice is ganging up in numbers and intimidation. After all isnt that what these migrants, with little resources and weaponry, are doing themselves? It seems very effective to me. You need like minded individuals when worst comes to worst.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Geomann180 - 01-07-2016

Homogenous Society + Good Border Controls

G

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - spokepoker - 01-07-2016

How about a framing hammer, steel toe boots, and a carpet knife?

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - MikeS - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 10:11 PM)mickeyd Wrote:  

Without the option of obtaining a gun, your only choice is ganging up in numbers and intimidation. After all isnt that what these migrants, with little resources and weaponry, are doing themselves? It seems very effective to me. You need like minded individuals when worst comes to worst.

The day I need to bring a pack of guys with me just to go about my usual business in safety is the day I'll know Western society has fallen so far that I'll consider moving to a cave in the forest.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - mickeyd - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 10:50 PM)MikeS Wrote:  

Quote: (01-07-2016 10:11 PM)mickeyd Wrote:  

Without the option of obtaining a gun, your only choice is ganging up in numbers and intimidation. After all isnt that what these migrants, with little resources and weaponry, are doing themselves? It seems very effective to me. You need like minded individuals when worst comes to worst.

The day I need to bring a pack of guys with me just to go about my usual business in safety is the day I'll know Western society has fallen so far that I'll consider moving to a cave in the forest.

I guess I should have elaborated more. I'm talking about a network. Eyes and ears open. Neighbors looking out for neighbors. The fabric of society thats completely lost in the anonymity of big cities. And of course, "ganging up" when you see a threat out in the open. Obviously you wouldn't rove around in a rat pack just to stop at a grocery store. But on a night like New Years Eve, you can pretty much assume some bad shit is going to go down somewhere, can't you? Not a time to be alone.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Tytalus - 01-07-2016

Question: Are Ice Picks a legal weapon to use for self defense? Or more of an assassins weapon?

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Ryre - 01-07-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 11:38 PM)Tytalus Wrote:  

Question: Are Ice Picks a legal weapon to use for self defense? Or more of an assassins weapon?

I'll speak to this and the ice axe suggestion from earlier. In my jurisdiction in the states, there's not a hard and fast line between 'weapon' and 'not weapon.' Intent matters. Yes, even your intent in carrying the item. So if you are on your way back from a climbing trip, someone attacks you, and you pull your ice axe in self defense, you are in a different position from someone who picks up an ice axe and goes down the street to talk to the noisy neighbors. You can theoretically catch a weapons charge for a frying pan if you pick it up with the idea of cracking somebody's skull with it.

My jurisdiction has rules about the length of knife blades--sub 3" is generally legal. But if you carry a sub 3" blade as a weapon you can still be charged with a weapons crime. I have a 2 3/4" lockblade I carry sometimes, but if asked about it I would be sure to say I carry it because it is handy for sharpening pencils, opening packages, etc.

As with everything in this forum this post is for entertainment purposes only. I have been drinking whiskey and this should not be treated as legal advice.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - PainPositive - 01-08-2016

A trained dog. Also wasp spray. It has a range farther than most mace and is cheaper/ more accessible. When it contacts the eyes it causes temporary blindness. You must go to the hospital for the antidote so finding and prosecuting your attacker would not be hard.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Chauncey - 01-08-2016

Quote: (01-07-2016 07:43 AM)Lucky Wrote:  

I've heard good things about tactical pens and expandable batons.

I have a friend who is a Deputy US Marshall and he says this is his favorite weapon to use on raids and round-ups.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - John Michael Kane - 01-08-2016

Brass knuckle gloves. Look them up. They make some that are rather inconspicuous looking, especially in the cold European winters. If you make a habit of wearing them, you'll never be without a weapon, or I would suggest think of them as a secondary weapon should your baton, knife or other implement fail or get knocked away from you.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Chauncey - 01-08-2016



I just wear one of these under my shirt. Anytime someone tries to fuck with me I lift my shirt up and they gtfo in a hurry.

(Seriously though, great thread, very informative)

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Grit - 01-08-2016

If you are drawing a weapon my assumption is the situation is going to escalate until you are on the ground being stomped. If you aren't about to be stomped, leave.

If it's one on one, leave.

If a few guys are about to stomp you, you should be trying to leave, period.

Rule out pepper spray, baton, stun gun, or large knives. Any of these will be taken from you and , ahem, recycled.

My suggestion would be brass knuckles on your strong hand and on your weak hand, a small push knife with a middle finger hole.

Neither can be pried from a clenched fist easily. If you get hit and dazed, neither should come out of a loose grip. And also, you can still open your grasp and let them dangle if you need to grab something.

They can be carried in hand warmer pockets, taken off and put on discreetly with your hands inside the pockets. So if guys are following you, show your raised hands, turn to walk away, put your hands in your pockets as if to keep warm, and you have discreetly armed yourself.

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For non-gun bros: best weapon combination for self-defense? - Deepdiver - 01-08-2016

In the USA in all 50 states, no matter the situation - if you are in fear for your life you never give up the right to self defense - this also applies to military personnel when faced with contradictory rules of engagement in a war zone.

The fact that this may not be the case in the EU indicates that it is time for a revolution, to throw off the shackles of liberal Marxist Feminist insanity and return to laws based upon your human right to be safe and secure in your person and home and to defend yourself by all necessary means when you feel at risk of your life.

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