[Professor When]

Hello, RVF. I've recently been trying to learn the concepts behind game and apply them as best I can. However, I need some help convincing myself that looks aren't such a huge part of making game work. I've been having a lot of trouble turning any interactions with females into something more than just simple friendliness.

About me:
I'm 28 years old and I've been trying to find some variety of sexual relationship for about 8 months now. Before that I had never even tried asking a woman out. As it follows, I'm a virgin. I'm average looking, but also fat. I've lost about 180 lbs, although I still weigh 305 lbs; I've got a way to go yet. I have started to dress better and generally take care of my appearance, as well.

I am a very charismatic person. I'm the one leading my social groups, I have excellent rapport with people in general. I have recently returned to school looking to get my BSN, so this has afforded me a lot more opportunities to meet women and create new social circles.

Here's where I have a problem:
I have been fighting my natural introversion and interacting with women as much as I can, rather than just during classes, etc. I always get them laughing and having fun; I play juvenile games with them, I tease them, I establish casual physical contact early. As far as I can tell, that's all textbook stuff and they seem receptive to it. Then I try to arrange a date and I can almost hear the "comedic record scratch" sound effect playing in their head.

I can give some recent examples if you'd like, but every time I make a move for something more than platonic, the entire dynamic changes. Of course, since I have never been the orbiter type I end up just not trying to interact with her anymore upon seeing this dead end. And they are all perfectly fine with this. There's never any reciprocal push to my pulling away when I next them. Further interactions see them acting almost awkward around me, even though I just go back to treating them like I would any other random normal person.


So this is where I'm convinced it's an issue of looks. If they're happy interacting with me as some asexual attentention device, yet balk at the implication of romance, what am I supposed to think?

I understand that this is a touchy subject here, which is why I want to keep an open mind and ask for sincere advice. What could be the cause of this complete dissonance in their reactions?

Thank you.

[Captain Gh]

Being 300 Lbs is already tough... but being a virgin 300 Pounder... damn! If I was in your shoes... I would simply keep doing what you're doing with the women from your social circle & school... with a little bit of DayGame as a supplement in order to safely try some stuff out.

I would also recommend you stay out of the nightlife for now. That environment is really cutthroat, even for the most seasoned player. As you get in better shape... you will see women's reaction to your Game get better right before your eyes!

[456]

Nice post -- self-aware, and I agree, keep doing what you're doing until little by little you get little. Svelte and make'm melt.

Keep the objective vibe your post carries, just know it'll pay off at some point.

By the way -- some girls dig that "Large And In Charge" kind of fatness (i.e. Biggie Smalls, etc.)... sounds like you are cultivating a larger-than-life social air, just keep it up as you transform.

This guy will probably kill it once he has the outer looks to match his inner confidence.

#team hopeful

[Simeon_Strangelight]

You are a late-stage virgin who has already managed to cut down some massive weight. Unfortunately it's still within the frame that it lowers your market value too much.

Seems like you are learning Game, but you have to expect little rewards for that.

There are a few obese men who pull off getting a cute girl for a relationship. But chances are that you giving off other vibes as a virgin.


Multi-millionaire - always been fat, but also very intelligent and very very self-confident. Kim Dotcom.


Well-off and very self-confident having been a bit of a Player in his slimmer years. Plus he got himself that girl in South America where his market value is higher.

The good news is that in male terms you are not too old. Keep on working out and applying a good diet, spend time in the gym. Maybe for easier time travel then to a sexual market that is easier for you DR, Haiti, South American countries.

And yes - fat impacts your sex-object value heavily. If you are LTR-material then more women are willing to overlook it, but then you will require far more self-confident male charisma to overcome even that. By the way - I know other examples of overweight guys in my private life, but all of them are quite self-confident. None of them are Players - I only met wannabe fat players while being overweight, but never saw it work in real life. Still - they can get cute girls in LTRs.

[Noir]

It's just probability. If you're fat, your odds of being sexually attractive are low.

Work on that, you will become confident and keep meeting new women. Document your journey and look for trends in behaviour and how they change in response to what you put out there (game, looks etc.).

Welcome to the start of your new life, it only gets better from here and well done on taking initiative.

[Montrose]

You are not wrong. Your problem is looks.

[nomadbrah]

Can I ask how you got to 480lbs?

That is some weight.

[joost]

I have a friend who's that heavy (300lbs) and has a decent girlfriend (not fat, not ugly and same age as him 25). He's like 6'1 which helps but FAR from good looking. I would say a face 4 (below average).

If you lose weight your SMV (sexual market value) will increase, making it easier to get chicks near your SMV. You don't have to be muscular. Just being NORMAL will be a BIG improvement.
To be that obese, you must have anxiety problems. Try doing some sports, preferably ones you can meet more girls, like Volley.

Be a better man and girls will eventually follow. Keep a social circle that keeps girls around and eventually a girl will be interested. With time you'll know how to interpret those signals and do the right move. Maybe its your timing.

Girls don't know what they want and they change their minds all the time.


If you already have girlfriends, try to be more indirect instead of inviting them for "dinner" (and thus turning their shield ON). If you have a place (I hope you do), invite them to watch Netflix (or any downloaded movie) during boring/rainy weekdays. Girls get horny and if you happen to be around, they might choose you.
Maybe you can add medicinal marijuana (if legal in your State) or alcohol to make things easier. The idea is for them to just HANG AROUND your place and feel comfortable. Your only competition is her damn phone.
Imagine sitting next to the girl, comfortable, after some drinks, conversation flowing... try to talk to her with your face near hers. IF you feel some sexual tension in the air, look at her eyes, then her mouth (slowly). If she keeps the tension, go for a kiss (DO NOT ASK FOR ONE, NEVER!). Then escalate.

I think that would be a good start.

[Suits]

I agree. Your looks are the problem.

[Professor When]

I guess I was kind of hoping for some sort of "wax on, wax off" wisdom to get me by while I lose the weight. I appreciate the input. I will keep up my fitness and keep reading this forum. Thanks.

(08-08-2018 09:01 PM)Captain Gh Wrote:  

Being 300 Lbs is already tough... but being a virgin 300 Pounder... damn! If I was in your shoes... I would simply keep doing what you're doing with the women from your social circle & school... with a little bit of DayGame as a supplement in order to safely try some stuff out.

I would also recommend you stay out of the nightlife for now. That environment is really cutthroat, even for the most seasoned player. As you get in better shape... you will see women's reaction to your Game get better right before your eyes!

Yeah, I tried bars a bit. Having absolutely 0 shame I approached a few groups of girls trying to act like a cocky asshole. I got flat-out laughed at multiple times. Other than that, my only option is women with a line of guys waiting to talk to them. Night game is definitely beyond me right now.

(08-09-2018 07:17 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Can I ask how you got to 480lbs?

That is some weight.

I was never thin, but I herniated my back at 20 while powerlifting, had to drop out of college, dabbled in a bit of alcoholism and binge eating for the next 6 years. Gained over 200 lbs.

(08-09-2018 11:16 AM)joost Wrote:  

If you already have girlfriends, try to be more indirect instead of inviting them for "dinner" (and thus turning their shield ON). If you have a place (I hope you do), invite them to watch Netflix (or any downloaded movie) during boring/rainy weekdays. Girls get horny and if you happen to be around, they might choose you.
Maybe you can add medicinal marijuana (if legal in your State) or alcohol to make things easier. The idea is for them to just HANG AROUND your place and feel comfortable. Your only competition is her damn phone.
Imagine sitting next to the girl, comfortable, after some drinks, conversation flowing... try to talk to her with your face near hers. IF you feel some sexual tension in the air, look at her eyes, then her mouth (slowly). If she keeps the tension, go for a kiss (DO NOT ASK FOR ONE, NEVER!). Then escalate.

I think that would be a good start.

Oh yeah, I know never to ask a girl to dinner. It's usually drinks (or coffee for the under 21s). I did take one girl to a movie and it went reasonably well. This was early in my learning, so I didn't make a move while there. I invited her over to my place a few days after that and got a "I don't feel comfortable alone with you." But I think she may have been a bit off because she made a pass at one of my friends and got a little crazy when she learned he was dating a model.

I've also had a few girls over to watch netflix. I certainly have tried to act like they already want me/assume the sale; things like putting my arm around her when I sit down on the couch, playing with her hair and such. I either get the "I have a boyfriend" line which I try to dismiss, or the "let's just be friends" line which I know is complete bs, so I ditch them.

At least it seems like I'm on the right track. Thanks again.

[chicane]

You get laughed at? Figure out how to agree and amplify.

Other than that, plan a trip to Eastern Europe. There are a number of countries that are inexpensive to visit. Make sure you dress really well.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Seems like you are on the right track.

Use the time to train more, do no-fap, learn Game, stack paper. In 1 year or sooner you will have x-time the reaction with women. Plus it seems that you are in a tough sexual market - night Game is brutal in that respect, social Game isn't easy either because of backfeed loop experienced there, online Game can be completely forgotten.

You are relatively young for a man, so 1 year is nothing - plenty of time to make it up and delve deep into pussy-land.

Aside from reading Roosh's books I would recommend you check out Nick Krauser's works. For general Red Pill understanding and perception - read Rational Male or get his books.

If you stick with it, then you will certainly succeed.

As for looks - it's all relative:



The guy on the left could have approached 1000 times - unless he would have really lowered his bar to some very questionable boner-killing levels, then he would hardly get laid. The guy on the right - he just needs some Game if he cannot get laid.

[AneroidOcean]

(08-09-2018 02:32 PM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  

As for looks - it's all relative:



The guy on the left could have approached 1000 times - unless he would have really lowered his bar to some very questionable boner-killing levels, then he would hardly get laid. The guy on the right - he just needs some Game if he cannot get laid.

You're on the right track. Don't focus on trying to get laid. It's unlikely to happen until you get to a reasonable weight level and flip that switch in your brain.

What switch? The one that keeps you in the friend zone being a clown/entertainer.

Your goal is to get rejected because she made a choice, not because you made the choice for her (by being the clown/entertainer). Rejection is fine. Treat it as practice for success.

However, there's zero chance a girl will be attracted to you if you even describe yourself this way:

Quote:

asexual attention device

The great thing is that you already know that you can accomplish far more than what your mind can limit you to (with your weight loss, that's very impressive). I'm sure you can think back to the many, many times when you told yourself that you would not ever be less than 400 lbs or when you'd never be able to take a walk without huffing and puffing after 10 minutes.

Channel that will-power to keep losing weight and getting healthier. With socializing, you need to meet and spend time around guys that have game so you can start picking up on how those things work. I wouldn't worry about implementing it, I think your biggest hurdle is to change your doormat attitude. You're essentially the overly nice guy except you're entertaining women instead of trying to buy/serve for their affection.

[LINUX]

Ars Amorata has a fundamental course starting up in four days. It would probably be good for you to take. Zan Perrion has been around for a long time and has a positive way of looking at women and dating , and I think positivity and hope is what you need at this point in your life until your self-esteem is better. I imagine a lifetime of rejection has damaged your ego quite a bit.

You're also welcome to come down to South America and the guys in the meet-up section will show you some things as long as you buy us a beer.

goodluck

[JimBobsCooters]

Gonna agree with the masses here, your weight/looks are absolutely going to cause you issues.

I notice a significant difference in general reaction when I let myself slip even 20lbs and unless you're a huge human I'd guess you're somewhere in the 100lbs overweight region still, that's going to be affecting your entire look.

Double down and work even harder on that side of your life as it's absolutely the biggest issue.

The major positive is that you're overcoming your anxiety issues and general issues now while you still don't look great so your self confidence is only going to sky rocket once you start losing more weight and getting more positive interactions, basically it will spitball if you do transform yourself.

Keep working hard on the physical aspect and keep working through the mental aspect, you've made a great start so just keep going, fine tune the diet, fine tune your exercise routine and get out there and kill it!

[chicane]

Take up a real martial art. I suggest Aikido, Judo or Ving Tsun. Not for winning fights, but for learning to move gracefully automatically.

[sterlingarcher]

Check out Patrice O'Neill on YT

[asdfk]

I do nor know any fat player. Losing the weight is the way to go.

If you are disadvantaged look-wise, you can still get some pussay by acting EXTREMELY confident. This is the exact opposite from talking a lot and acting cocky-funny. When others talk, you are silent and listen intently. When shit gets awkward, you stay calm. When there’s a silence, you make 0 attempts to break it.

If a girl laughs at you, raise your eyebrows and look at her like this is the first time some bitch has ever laughed at you, and that she must not know who the fuck you are.
Not angry or bitter, just raised eyebrows, calmly, signaling this is not how you are generally treated.

If you consistently show signals you are used to being treated with respect and if you do not go into dancing monkey mode, maybe you have a chance.

But really, lose the weight. Take before and after pics for my eternal respect.

Edit: watch out with the Zan Perion shit. I’ve met several from his ex students who showed me many pictures of them amongst beautiful women. When I asked them “which ones did they bang”, they would get uncomfortable and eventually admit that they hadn’t slept with any of them.

Maybe there’s an army of Zan-trained players out there but I’ve never met them. I’ve only met some dudes who were taught how to be the gay boyfriend for groups of chicks.

[RedPillUK]

"Average looking but also fat"

You probably do have average looks but if you weigh 300 pounds that really doesn't matter. All the other person sees and thinks about is flab. You need to fast. One healthy meal a day at most. That's the best way to lose shit loads of weight really quickly. People will say that's extreme and unhealthy, don't listen to them. Fasting is the best thing you could do for your health. And when your stomach starts growling, don't listen to that either. Don't have any food in your house, so if you do get hungry it's harder to do something about it.

[Professor When]

(08-09-2018 05:36 PM)chicane Wrote:  

Take up a real martial art. I suggest Aikido, Judo or Ving Tsun. Not for winning fights, but for learning to move gracefully automatically.

I was actually ikkyu in Goju Ryu before I hurt myself. I've recently taken up Kamishin Ryu Jujitsu and Nakamura Ryu Battodo. Of course, I did get into a lot of fights when I was younger.

(08-09-2018 02:55 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  

However, there's zero chance a girl will be attracted to you if you even describe yourself this way:

Quote:

asexual attention device

That was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I see what you mean.

(08-09-2018 06:14 PM)asdfk Wrote:  

I do nor know any fat player. Losing the weight is the way to go.

If you are disadvantaged look-wise, you can still get some pussay by acting EXTREMELY confident. This is the exact opposite from talking a lot and acting cocky-funny. When others talk, you are silent and listen intently. When shit gets awkward, you stay calm. When there’s a silence, you make 0 attempts to break it.

If a girl laughs at you, raise your eyebrows and look at her like this is the first time some bitch has ever laughed at you, and that she must not know who the fuck you are.
Not angry or bitter, just raised eyebrows, calmly, signaling this is not how you are generally treated.

If you consistently show signals you are used to being treated with respect and if you do not go into dancing monkey mode, maybe you have a chance.

Interesting. I was thinking that acting that way would make me seem frustrated or like I'm trying to compensate. My thought was to present an "idgaf" attitude through joviality. I will try this.

(08-09-2018 06:33 PM)RedPillUK Wrote:  

"Average looking but also fat"

You probably do have average looks but if you weigh 300 pounds that really doesn't matter. All the other person sees and thinks about is flab. You need to fast. One healthy meal a day at most. That's the best way to lose shit loads of weight really quickly. People will say that's extreme and unhealthy, don't listen to them. Fasting is the best thing you could do for your health. And when your stomach starts growling, don't listen to that either. Don't have any food in your house, so if you do get hungry it's harder to do something about it.

This was my thought as well. Right now what I do is get about 1400 calories a day of lean meat and eggs along with casein protein powder. I use nicotine gum as an appetite suppressant and make sure to get a full complement of B and D vitamins. I reset once a month for my own sanity (drinking with some buddies, usually), but once the ketosis hits, the hunger is barely a problem.

[DaveR]

Respect for your honesty and willingness to deal with the problem.

I'm assuming you're in the US here: Gaming American girls in the US is hard, especially these days with their egos being so inflated due to Tinder and other online dating. If you're getting blown out immediately because of your looks and your underdeveloped game skills aren't enough to compensate, it's going to be hard to build those skills at all. . You sound quite confident, but it might not come across that way if you're subconsciously thinking about your v-card. Girls can smell when guys aren't getting any.

You could use some hambeasts to get some practice under your belt, but your dick might not work in the heat of the moment. I tried banging one of them one night when I was bored and thought it might be better than jerking off... but my dick didn't want to cooperate.

So my question is: have you thought about taking a bang mission to another country where men's looks aren't as high on women's priority lists? I can't find the thread now, but another guy was in a similar situation and took a trip to the Philippines, got laid and loosened up. Following that trip he had a lot more success back home.

[Professor When]

(08-09-2018 08:00 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

Respect for your honesty and willingness to deal with the problem.

I'm assuming you're in the US here: Gaming American girls in the US is hard, especially these days with their egos being so inflated due to Tinder and other online dating. If you're getting blown out immediately because of your looks and your underdeveloped game skills aren't enough to compensate, it's going to be hard to build those skills at all. . You sound quite confident, but it might not come across that way if you're subconsciously thinking about your v-card. Girls can smell when guys aren't getting any.

You could use some hambeasts to get some practice under your belt, but your dick might not work in the heat of the moment. I tried banging one of them one night when I was bored and thought it might be better than jerking off... but my dick didn't want to cooperate.

So my question is: have you thought about taking a bang mission to another country where men's looks aren't as high on women's priority lists? I can't find the thread now, but another guy was in a similar situation and took a trip to the Philippines, got laid and loosened up. Following that trip he had a lot more success back home.

Yep, in the US. I'm somewhat jammed up on time for the next few years. I'm working and going to school full time. It's certainly something I've considered, but not enough to deviate from my general self-improvement just yet.

Once thing I have been able to do is work a pretty good "fake it til you make it" by appropriating various relationship stories of my friends from across the country.

It's hard to explain, but I'm not really concerned about my v-card. I've only recently gotten to the point of even trying. I'm sure part of it was a sour grapes issue, but when I was less of a fatass in my teenage years, I still had little interest. I have been diagnosed with APD, but apparently not the kind that makes women wet. Mostly I was just really misanthropic and kept to myself with a few friendships that I maintained for convenience.

[Palo_alto]

Do you like motorcycles?

[NoMoreTO]

You've lost 180 which is a huge achievement. Being 305 means that you are heavier than almost everyone still. The good news is you've seen the gains and have shown an ability to change yourself.

Your game is probably working in the friend zone, so you are learning about relating with chicks and making personal connections. This is a great improvement. They just don't see you in that way, and its a tough moment when you think you've been flirting with them and they thing you're in the friend zone.

You are doing everything right enough in my mind, when you get under 250 (assuming youre 6 foot even) then you might start to get some bites. Keep dropping pounds, styling yourself up, working your social circle and practicing your game. Also, it all depends on what you're going for, anyone can be a virgin if their standards are too high.

Good luck

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(08-09-2018 08:10 PM)Professor When Wrote:  

Once thing I have been able to do is work a pretty good "fake it til you make it" by appropriating various relationship stories of my friends from across the country.

It's hard to explain, but I'm not really concerned about my v-card. I've only recently gotten to the point of even trying. I'm sure part of it was a sour grapes issue, but when I was less of a fatass in my teenage years, I still had little interest. I have been diagnosed with APD, but apparently not the kind that makes women wet. Mostly I was just really misanthropic and kept to myself with a few friendships that I maintained for convenience.

Seems like a no-fap regimen would help you. Check out Brain on Porn on the internet and Youtube.

"Fake it till you make it" is real, but is has to be based on a real assessment of market value - otherwise too many rejections might discourage you. If not and you are one of those insane salesmen guys who can get 500 rejections and don't care, then go ahead and train away. Most people however are not.

Since you managed to convince some girls to come over for Netflix and chill, then you have to consider this - your fit self would have banged all or most of those girls.

So you are on the right track.