[Going strong]

I have started a thread here on RVF, praising ( thread-55916.html ) the "torture" (enhanced interrogation actually) of terrorists and even of gay or bi serial killers (who usually refuse to tell where the bodies of their victims are), but, well, I actually kind of agree with OP here.

I mean, I am in favor of good, cost-effective and quick solutions. Waterboarding or sleep-depriving the terrorists for five days, then killing them. Death penalty with no fuss for premeditating murderers and gang leaders. No life-without-parole, no supermax 20-years, which are costly and mean, devious ways of dealing with an enemy. An enemy has to be interrogated (possibly with "torture") then if needed quickly eliminated (shot), not tortured for twenty years in a small cage.

For example, there is a "French" citizen in a supermax, Florence, the fat dude Moussaoui who participated in September-11. Well, I would volunteer to waterboard him a couple of hours (with a legal mandate to do so) and actually shoot him (as part of a legally constituted firing squad), but, I am actually moved and saddened when I hear on the news his mother crying, describing how he is getting crazy locked for years in a small cage. That's not a classic, noble way to treat an enemy, I think. Waterboarding, quick but fair trial and if guilty, execution by firing squad (to train good citizens in killing terrorists) should be enough.

[Johnnyvee]

(06-20-2018 03:07 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

I have started a thread here on RVF, praising ( thread-55916.html ) the "torture" (enhanced interrogation actually) of terrorists and even of gay or bi serial killers (who usually refuse to tell where the bodies of their victims are), but, well, I actually kind of agree with OP here.

I mean, I am in favor of good, cost-effective and quick solutions. Waterboarding or sleep-depriving the terrorists for five days, then killing them. Death penalty with no fuss for premeditating murderers and gang leaders. No life-without-parole, no supermax 20-years, which are costly and mean, devious ways of dealing with an enemy. An enemy has to be interrogated (possibly with "torture") then if needed quickly eliminated (shot), not tortured for twenty years in a small cage.

For example, there is a "French" citizen in a supermax, Florence, the fat dude Moussaoui who participated in September-11. Well, I would volunteer to waterboard him a couple of hours (with a legal mandate to do so) and actually shoot him (as part of a legally constituted firing squad), but, I am actually moved and saddened when I hear on the news his mother crying, describing how he is getting crazy locked for years in a small cage. That's not a classic, noble way to treat an enemy, I think. Waterboarding, quick but fair trial and if guilty, execution by firing squad (to train good citizens in killing terrorists) should be enough.

I don`t know about waterboarding, what if you actually don`t have the info? As far as execution goes, it might be better as long as it`s done professionally. Although I`m principally against it. I would probably rate execution methods that have been used in modern times from worst to "best" like this;

-Gas chamber (Horrible way to go.)

-Lethal injection (Hard to know what happens there, but might actually be horrible again without anyone knowing.)

-Hanging (Fast and painless if done right, big change of botching it, where it would be really bad)

-Firing squad (Should be fast, but can be also botched)

-Electric chair. (Horrible for witnesses, but should be instantaneous as far as consciousness goes for the condemned.)

-Guillotine (Can`t see what could go wrong there, but you might possible be conscious for a few seconds after your head fall of. Some reports indicating that in fact.)

[Going strong]

(06-20-2018 03:37 PM)Johnnyvee Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 03:07 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

I have started a thread here on RVF, praising ( thread-55916.html ) the "torture" (enhanced interrogation actually) of terrorists and even of gay or bi serial killers (who usually refuse to tell where the bodies of their victims are), but, well, I actually kind of agree with OP here.

I mean, I am in favor of good, cost-effective and quick solutions. Waterboarding or sleep-depriving the terrorists for five days, then killing them. Death penalty with no fuss for premeditating murderers and gang leaders. No life-without-parole, no supermax 20-years, which are costly and mean, devious ways of dealing with an enemy. An enemy has to be interrogated (possibly with "torture") then if needed quickly eliminated (shot), not tortured for twenty years in a small cage.

For example, there is a "French" citizen in a supermax, Florence, the fat dude Moussaoui who participated in September-11. Well, I would volunteer to waterboard him a couple of hours (with a legal mandate to do so) and actually shoot him (as part of a legally constituted firing squad), but, I am actually moved and saddened when I hear on the news his mother crying, describing how he is getting crazy locked for years in a small cage. That's not a classic, noble way to treat an enemy, I think. Waterboarding, quick but fair trial and if guilty, execution by firing squad (to train good citizens in killing terrorists) should be enough.

I don`t know about waterboarding, what if you actually don`t have the info?

There isn't something like "not having the info". A good interrogator does not even look for "the info", he looks for information as a whole, through which other people (analysts) will parse and comb.

So if the interrogated subject does not know, for instance, precisely "where the next terror attack will take place", it does not matter, because rightly motivated he will talk in details about his life, friends, places of meeting or worship. This is not "the" info but this is information that will yield value somehow.

The only thing a good interrogator should look for, is not detailed data, but the dreaded disinformation (but terrorists don't have the intellectual level for disinformation, they're not exactly spymasters).

To sum it up: if you waterboard a terrorist or a serial killer, you'll get the truth, a bit muddied possibly, but professionals will clear that. But if you would waterboard an intelligence officer (but why would you do that?), then you'd get disinformation nine times out of ten.

That is why intelligence officers reportedly get pumped with pentotal or some strange mind-affecting drugs, rather than tortured - except if they get caught by Islamist terrorists, in which case the tortures get medieval and all bets are off.

[RatInTheWoods]

(06-19-2018 08:50 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Honestly, the older I get the more I get frustrated with the fundamental human rights crowd who rally to throw thousands of innocent people into the meat grinder to protect the rights of a few hundred psychopaths who would sooner shank them than thank them for it.

This. There will always be a very small percentage of scum and garbage in the gene pool that will kill, rape and destroy civilisation.

A double tap and a shallow grave is the only solution.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

< There are even theories that Europe became less violent by killing brutally the most violent offenders - before they could reproduce. Asia did the same - do it for centuries and you have quite an efficient eugenic breeding. Those men who cannot control their anger (except for channeling in war) - they died and so did their reproductive options. For example it's known that many criminals make bad soldiers, because they cannot hold their temper - if they would wait for the official murder to begin, then they could vent their urges, but that would mean some impulse control.

[bucky]

(06-20-2018 03:37 PM)Johnnyvee Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 03:07 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

I have started a thread here on RVF, praising ( thread-55916.html ) the "torture" (enhanced interrogation actually) of terrorists and even of gay or bi serial killers (who usually refuse to tell where the bodies of their victims are), but, well, I actually kind of agree with OP here.

I mean, I am in favor of good, cost-effective and quick solutions. Waterboarding or sleep-depriving the terrorists for five days, then killing them. Death penalty with no fuss for premeditating murderers and gang leaders. No life-without-parole, no supermax 20-years, which are costly and mean, devious ways of dealing with an enemy. An enemy has to be interrogated (possibly with "torture") then if needed quickly eliminated (shot), not tortured for twenty years in a small cage.

For example, there is a "French" citizen in a supermax, Florence, the fat dude Moussaoui who participated in September-11. Well, I would volunteer to waterboard him a couple of hours (with a legal mandate to do so) and actually shoot him (as part of a legally constituted firing squad), but, I am actually moved and saddened when I hear on the news his mother crying, describing how he is getting crazy locked for years in a small cage. That's not a classic, noble way to treat an enemy, I think. Waterboarding, quick but fair trial and if guilty, execution by firing squad (to train good citizens in killing terrorists) should be enough.

I don`t know about waterboarding, what if you actually don`t have the info? As far as execution goes, it might be better as long as it`s done professionally. Although I`m principally against it. I would probably rate execution methods that have been used in modern times from worst to "best" like this;

-Gas chamber (Horrible way to go.)

-Lethal injection (Hard to know what happens there, but might actually be horrible again without anyone knowing.)

-Hanging (Fast and painless if done right, big change of botching it, where it would be really bad)

-Firing squad (Should be fast, but can be also botched)

-Electric chair. (Horrible for witnesses, but should be instantaneous as far as consciousness goes for the condemned.)

-Guillotine (Can`t see what could go wrong there, but you might possible be conscious for a few seconds after your head fall of. Some reports indicating that in fact.)

I'd say firing squad and hanging are the most humane. In the US, firing squad is done with a group of highly trained sharpshooters and I've never heard of a botched execution. Hanging should be quick too, if done right. I've heard of long, drawn-out hangings, but only because that was intentional. Guillotine should be quick too, but we've never used it in the US, plus there's something more brutal about decapitation in my opinion. Maybe that's just an American point of view.

There have been lots of horrific botched executions in the electric chair. Lethal injection is just ghoulish to me, clearly designed to make everyone but the person actually being executed feel better.

[Johnnyvee]

(06-21-2018 04:39 PM)bucky Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 03:37 PM)Johnnyvee Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 03:07 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

I have started a thread here on RVF, praising ( thread-55916.html ) the "torture" (enhanced interrogation actually) of terrorists and even of gay or bi serial killers (who usually refuse to tell where the bodies of their victims are), but, well, I actually kind of agree with OP here.

I mean, I am in favor of good, cost-effective and quick solutions. Waterboarding or sleep-depriving the terrorists for five days, then killing them. Death penalty with no fuss for premeditating murderers and gang leaders. No life-without-parole, no supermax 20-years, which are costly and mean, devious ways of dealing with an enemy. An enemy has to be interrogated (possibly with "torture") then if needed quickly eliminated (shot), not tortured for twenty years in a small cage.

For example, there is a "French" citizen in a supermax, Florence, the fat dude Moussaoui who participated in September-11. Well, I would volunteer to waterboard him a couple of hours (with a legal mandate to do so) and actually shoot him (as part of a legally constituted firing squad), but, I am actually moved and saddened when I hear on the news his mother crying, describing how he is getting crazy locked for years in a small cage. That's not a classic, noble way to treat an enemy, I think. Waterboarding, quick but fair trial and if guilty, execution by firing squad (to train good citizens in killing terrorists) should be enough.

I don`t know about waterboarding, what if you actually don`t have the info? As far as execution goes, it might be better as long as it`s done professionally. Although I`m principally against it. I would probably rate execution methods that have been used in modern times from worst to "best" like this;

-Gas chamber (Horrible way to go.)

-Lethal injection (Hard to know what happens there, but might actually be horrible again without anyone knowing.)

-Hanging (Fast and painless if done right, big change of botching it, where it would be really bad)

-Firing squad (Should be fast, but can be also botched)

-Electric chair. (Horrible for witnesses, but should be instantaneous as far as consciousness goes for the condemned.)

-Guillotine (Can`t see what could go wrong there, but you might possible be conscious for a few seconds after your head fall of. Some reports indicating that in fact.)

I'd say firing squad and hanging are the most humane. In the US, firing squad is done with a group of highly trained sharpshooters and I've never heard of a botched execution. Hanging should be quick too, if done right. I've heard of long, drawn-out hangings, but only because that was intentional. Guillotine should be quick too, but we've never used it in the US, plus there's something more brutal about decapitation in my opinion. Maybe that's just an American point of view.

There have been lots of horrific botched executions in the electric chair. Lethal injection is just ghoulish to me, clearly designed to make everyone but the person actually being executed feel better.

I believe the botched electrocutions where horrific from the perspective of the witnesses only. (I hope so at least.) For the person electrocuted it probably didn`t make any difference. The brain runs on very subtle electric impulses after all, and I can`t see how it would be possible to regain consciousness after such an enormous jolt of electricity, passing through your brain and frying your synapses. I`ve read the accounts of the botched electrocutions, and there is no record of anyone regaining consciousness. So it`s just the heart and lungs that`s more resilient than the brain and is able to hold on even though the brain is gone, as far is I can gather at least. https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/some-exampl...executions

I`m not so sure about hangings though. It`s more an art than a science, and there is a long history of botched hangings, independent of the "good will" of the executioner also. You might be right that firing squad is a better option than electric chair, hard to tell.

[RatInTheWoods]

(06-21-2018 04:39 PM)bucky Wrote:  

I'd say firing squad and hanging are the most humane. In the US, firing squad is done with a group of highly trained sharpshooters and I've never heard of a botched execution. Hanging should be quick too, if done right.

Two round in the back of the head is quick, painless and cost effective.

Giving the option to pull the trigger for the victims relatives etc would be a bonus.

If you want to get all soft, new age and humane on these animals then the best method is the "nitrogen bag" - a plastic bag over the head, 100% nitrogen. One breath and you are unconscious.

Very humane and cheap. This is how I am going to check myself out if the need arises in the future.

[bucky]

(06-21-2018 07:24 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(06-21-2018 04:39 PM)bucky Wrote:  

I'd say firing squad and hanging are the most humane. In the US, firing squad is done with a group of highly trained sharpshooters and I've never heard of a botched execution. Hanging should be quick too, if done right.

Two round in the back of the head is quick, painless and cost effective.

Giving the option to pull the trigger for the victims relatives etc would be a bonus.

If you want to get all soft, new age and humane on these animals then the best method is the "nitrogen bag" - a plastic bag over the head, 100% nitrogen. One breath and you are unconscious.

Very humane and cheap. This is how I am going to check myself out if the need arises in the future.

Nitrogen knocks you out that quickly? I had no idea. Seems like a good method if that's the case and you have it on hand. I mean, if you had to kill yourself for some reason. One of the many reasons I'm almost sure I'd never kill myself is the very real possibility of botching it. People don't realize how often attempted suicides fail, even people who try to shoot themselves. I guess jumping off a very high building is close to foolproof, but other than that every method I can think of has a good chance of failing.

[monster]

My big concern is for the wrongfully convicted.

Yes, wrongful convictions (I think) have gone down as forensic and surveillance tech has increased, but when it comes to witness and police statements there's room for error. And when it comes to having a (read: being able to afford) a good attorney, there's even more room for error.

I guess it stems from recurring nightmares I used to have as a kid where I was dragged out of bed and framed for something that a school bully did and locked up for life.

[Johnnyvee]

(06-22-2018 10:03 PM)monster Wrote:  

My big concern is for the wrongfully convicted.

Yes, wrongful convictions (I think) have gone down as forensic and surveillance tech has increased, but when it comes to witness and police statements there's room for error. And when it comes to having a (read: being able to afford) a good attorney, there's even more room for error.

I guess it stems from recurring nightmares I used to have as a kid where I was dragged out of bed and framed for something that a school bully did and locked up for life.

I got a lot of criticism for my arguments against what I consider cruel and unusual punishment in the OP, and the idea that solitary confinement in particular is quite a brutal form of torture. I accept other forum members opinions on this of course, but in light of what happened to Tommy Robinson I ask you to reconsider your stance one more time.

It`s fair to assume that TR is stronger "mentally" than your average man, he has to be to take the kind of abuse that he usually does. Therefore it was a bit surprising to see just how worn down he (genuinely) appeared in his first interviews after his release. And after only two months in solitary! Remember again that some prisoners spend decades in such conditions.

One might of course argue that they are guilty, while TR where imprisoned on unlawful terms, but that misses the point. The real issue is; if you allow for these types of punishments to become commonplace and generally accepted, you should not be surprised if your Government uses them against you even though you didn`t kill, rape, molest a child, rob someone etc. Look a history here folks! We know that States do these things to it`s citizens. You can`t entrust them with too much power, they will abuse it. If solitary wasn`t a thing in the UK, Tommy would probably have been released, or served the sentence at home etc.