[HankMoody]

I've noticed an interesting trend, particularly among liberal beta males...

Women will have a boyfriend, or even a husband, often who she lives with. He's her boyfriend in pretty much every respect, except for one thing - she gets to bang other dudes. The typical makeup of this relationship is a beta male dating a relatively attractive liberal self-identified feminist. I have found some of my friends wives on Bumble / Tinder, and amazingly, they know about it. The woman is usually banging out like crazy, while the "boyfriend" is sitting at home watching TV.

When I laugh at these women (and men) for it, the response is almost always this:

"What, Hank, you're not man enough to date a woman who wants to be in an open relationship? And you sleep around all the time! You're such a hypocrite!"

No. There is a huge difference between casual dating and being in "an open relationship."

When you're casually dating, you don't live with the girl, you don't pick her up from the airport, and do not hold her out to your friends and family as your "girlfriend." You don't need to be emotionally cold, and may even enjoy her company, but you do not hold her out as your +1. She's simply a woman that you hang out with from time to time. Hell, I even take my FWBs out on dates here and there if I feel like going out with a woman on my arm. But they don't live in my house or attend Christmas dinner with my family.

However, when I have an actual girlfriend, someone I hold out as my +1, any male who tries to go near her will have hands put on them. Once I've chosen to make a commitment, which is rare, she's mine. And if I found her "dating", the relationship would be over.

Anyway, this is my point...

Casual dating is fine. Have a lot of friends with benefits. If one of your FWBs says they want a commitment, that's on you and how you want your life to unfold.

However, if a woman wants to be in an "open relationship", head for the hills. It means she wants you to be her supplicating beta boyfriend or husband while still blowing alphas in bar bathrooms. I am amazed that males agree to be in "open relationships."

[Mercenary]

(01-05-2018 10:27 AM)HankMoody Wrote:  

I've noticed an interesting trend, particularly among liberal beta males...

This is the effect of watching too much limitless internet porn from a young age. This is relatively modern problem that has not existed in history before.

If you binge on that stuff (which all young guys now do) it rewires your brain to get more pleasure watching (or thinking about) a girl fuck then actually doing it yourself.

[Noir]

If you get to that point and let it slide, then you deserve it.

It seems this cuck lifestyle has been around forever but it's truly taking off now with the internet age where it's normalized.

I don't get the guys who go for it. The woman's POV makes sense.

Guys who want an open relationship just go ahead and cheat instead of giving an inch and losing a mile.

[xxx]

It's an interesting phenomenon. If it's happening and the men have no issue with it, then there must be some sort of equal exchange.

Are they sexually impotent? Maybe their value is so low that this is what they think they deserve.

Maybe these 'men' lack any sort of sense of masculinity.

Low testosterone men have always been cuckolded throughout history, but it shouldn't be a common thing.

The real question is, what kind of people are you hanging with Hank?

[HankMoody]

(01-05-2018 10:32 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 10:27 AM)HankMoody Wrote:  

I've noticed an interesting trend, particularly among liberal beta males...

This is the effect of watching too much limitless internet porn from a young age. This is relatively modern problem that has not existed in history before.

If you binge on that stuff (which all young guys now do) it rewires your brain to get more pleasure watching (or thinking about) a girl fuck then actually doing it yourself.

Not a bad theory.

However, I believe this is a symptom of liberalism. Sort of my theories...

1. "Men" today are not men. They're being feminized, and taught that they should be more feminine. At the same time, women are being told they "should" like more feminine men, but they don't. So they end up dating a feminine man while still having carnal desires for more masculine men. The hamster wheel then provides the "perfect" solution - she will date a feminine man but still continue to bang alphas. It's rationalized by feminism and notions of equality.

2. Contraception. I believe in "natural law." Prior to contraception, if women slept around they ran the risk of getting pregnant. Now they can bang 70 dudes in a year with no ramifications (except men like me disqualifying them). While they argue "equality", it's also not natural. Equality is not natural.

3. Rejection of traditional family values in favor of "equality" and "feminism." The feminist narrative is everyone should do what they "feel" like doing, instead of dedicating themselves to their family. Years ago, blowing the bartender in the bathroom and cheating on your husband would be considered disgusting and immoral. Now it's "you go girl!"

Most importantly, in years past, women were openly attracted to masculine men. Now they're being told that they're "supposed" to like a guy in skinny jeans who voted for Hillary Clinton and isn't ashamed about crying during movies. A man who will be "understanding" about her "need" to suck off Johnny Bartender, or get split in half by Chad Thundercock. A guy who is "man enough" to be a stay at home dad while she works her idiotic non-profit job.

At the end of the day, I suppose it all sounds very egalitarian on paper, but it's simply not what they're attracted to. Even though they're being told they're supposed to be.

[Jetset]

It's a transactional relationship, which no woman ever wants to discuss because keeping it vague is always to her advantage.

In a strong family relationship with a healthy-minded male, sex is mutual because she wants him to fuck her and everything else is part of the partnership. The most traditional version of this is "he provides, she cooks/cleans/mothers".

In the transactional relationship with the beta provider, he pays the bills and sex is on her list of unpleasant chores. He's grateful to get it and rewards the occasional reluctant birthday blowjob with jewelry and car payments. The unspoken part is that she simply doesn't want to have sex with him, and that he's not rewarding her for doing a good job of pleasing him, he's compensating her for suffering through a life without any sex she actually wants.

In the first case, there's probably a handful of relatively functional open relationships out there on the spectrum of human behavior, but the overwhelming majority of these relationships fall into the latter case, and because he's been beaten down into this model of relationships, by taking the nasty chore of being faithful to a man she despises off the table, he's subconsciously hoping he can get away with putting a smaller diamond on her finger than would otherwise be required to satisfy her attention-whoring social media needs. She's going to cheat on him anyway.

Of course, it's all a sham. If you ever forced a clear conversation about this and tried to balance the accounts, she's the clear winner, and the truth is, she thinks she's entitled to anything she receives simply by virtue of the fact that she's received it. In this case, she knows full-well nobody else wants to have sex with him, either. The man in this position believes that, surely, he has found the ceiling of her sense of entitlement, but she'll just find new ways to bleed him, and he'll keep rationalizing it.

With that said, it's not your problem, is it, Hank? If some broad started telling me about her open relationship, I'd probably just say something along the lines of "...yeah, he seems like a really nice guy..." and move it along to how she feels about harlem struggle videos.

[Rhyme or Reason]

Numales often fall for the Polyamory trap set out for them by their Liberal girlfriends. They are told "you get to have sex with other people, too!" Except the chick knows damn well he can't or won't get any poosy (least not comparable to the amount of dick she's getting inundated with on a daily basis) So the outcome is as Hank described.

[xxx]

Yeah, I don't think there is any mystery why the women do it, it's why the men do it that's puzzling. A man can't be feminized -- you are what your biology dictates you are.

I don't see it happening with my age age group at all.

How common are 'open relationships' in your age group? I'm guessing your an older guy.

I can't see it at any more than 10%.

[Noir]

@Hank

Contraception is probably the largest factor.

After that, it's got to do with the whole glorification of a 'mans world' where you have TV shows such as Mad Men showing Don Draper fucking women, cheating and being cheered on for.

In typical woman fashion, they want that glory and equality to be able to fuck and do whatever they want.

This whole equality notion is basically 'if men can do it so can we' so they will zoom out of the present and focus on their entitlement based off past examples of this.

Add shaming men into becoming less sexual and more subdued and the result is women going and fucking around, in and out of relationships.

I feel for women because they are confused. They are attracted to masculine men but have reduced the number of them. As if this wasn't enough, they jumped on the wagon of being more sexual themselves and pandering to the thirst epidemic.

I touched upon this in the Instagram Hoes thread, the true nature of women when exposed to the real stimulus that gets them off.

This is just pareto principle at work combined with spineless guys who have been emasculated.

A woman will have an itch. If the guy can't scratch the itch, they will find someone who can.

The difference is that men don't need the emotional connection so they are fine to stay at home and live on the internet or watch sports or make money or whatever.

Women will go and find that emotional connection through sex as their pussy is their bartering tool.

The difference is that once I nut, I want the girl to be gone. Once the girl cums, she wants to relive that over and over again and the emotional connection is established.

They will go from guy to guy because the guys got what they want but they are still knocking on doors to get that itch scratched.

Add all of the factors above (read: less risk of fucking around) and you get open relationships, cheating, you name it.


@xxx

It's generally the older crowd because younger girls are in social circles where they just remain single and fuck guys. They won't risk the social shaming in their group of friends and they are generally inexperienced.

Once they are in workplaces, exercise classes and generally change social circles it's a different story. Combined with higher aggression levels in obtaining the D due to sex being less of a foreign/taboo concept.

[Jetset]

(01-05-2018 11:14 AM)xxx Wrote:  

Yeah, I don't think there is any mystery why the women do it, it's why the men do it that's puzzling.

I don't see it happening with my age age group at all.

How common are 'open relationships' in your age group? I'm guessing your an older guy.

I can't see it any more than 10%.

What's become popular in the younger crowd is "polyamory" where several people are actually engaged in a long-term relationship as a unit, as opposed to a more discrete "open relationship" with one regular partner, and it works as the transactional model I mentioned predicts.

It's always three semi-employed neckbeards sharing the bills for one unfuckable fat chick's shitty apartment, because she's so undesirable that she can neither secure one man who she actually wants to fuck nor convince one man she doesn't to provide for her, and the men are all so undesirable and low-status that they have to openly split one throwaway between them. This literal circle-jerk of failure is reimagined as being edgy and open-minded, which maximizes the unremarkable woman's ability to finally get attention.

[questor70]

I just think loyalty as a virtue is bleeding itself out of culture.

You see this in employment, for instance. How many people feel a sense of loyalty to stay at their jobs? How many would think twice about quitting if a better job came around, no matter how much you leaving would damage operations? Nobody gives a shit because they know they themselves are at-will employees who could be asked to pack their stuff in a box and leave under armed guard on a moment's notice.

Well, that attitude is the same with relationships. Anytime you interact with someone of the opposite sex they could ghost you at a moment's notice. No explanation and no apologies. Once you feel that way, then you downgrade your expectations accordingly. So everything becomes a game of constantly shifting musical-chairs.

With connections this weak, why even bother expecting monogamy?

The only pressure for monogamy revolves around kids, and even there, with baby-mama culture, it's going away.

[xxx]

@Jetset It makes me sick... fucking degeneracy at its worst. Hence why I ask what kind of people OP is hanging around.

It will never be a common thing, these people are the lowest of the low.

[Rhyme or Reason]

@Jetset

I encountered a 'poly couple' at a dive bar awhile back. Dude was fat, low T, effete. Chick was a dumpy, fat, and probably 20 years younger than the dude. They tried to drone on about how open minded they were and how their relationship model 'prevents jealousy'.

[JimBobsCooters]

It's certainly to do with a beta male who doesn't want to accept that his relationship is over and so he is clinging to what he can. It's most likely a guy who struggled to get this woman in the first place and remembers how much the dating game sucks for a beta like him.

Obviously he provides some value that she is happy to continue to receive, probably pays her bills for example, but what value is she providing him?

[The Alpha Virgin]

How do you know the guys aren't sleeping with others too?

[Jetset]

(01-05-2018 11:27 AM)xxx Wrote:  

@Jetset It makes me sick... fucking degeneracy at its worst. Hence why I ask what kind of people OP is hanging around.

It will never be a common thing, these people are the lowest of the low.

I think it's more common than people think. Polyamory is tolerated at that level because the people involved have nothing to lose by being branded as degenerates. The last one I ran across like this was an assistant manager at a store for plus-sized women. She isn't jeopardizing her future in international diplomacy or risking a media scandal, here. At worst, she's going to have to make a lateral move to another $12/hr gig on the other end of the mall if the drama blows up. Her hamster tells her she's brave for being different.

The "open relationship" has a component of secrecy or privacy that allows for official/public normalcy and also makes it hard to estimate. Over the years I've learned that many, many women from "decent" walks of life were doing this. I think it's just a logical extension of a man submitting to provider frame, that she's the best he can do and that he's lucky to have her, instead of the other way around. She gets her beta bucks and her cock carousel, too. Even where it wasn't official, plenty of men have turned a blind eye since ancient times. Even "The Book of the Civilized Man", an etiquette guide written in medieval England, warns about being prepared for your wife to cheat, alongside such sage advice as never trying to fight a man while he's taking a shit.

https://www.zmescience.com/science/book-...lized-man/

Quote:

In his own words, "when tempted by sweet words, even a chaste, good, dutiful, devout and kindly woman will resist scarcely anyone". He says that women are always ready to fornicate - "with a cook or a half-wit, a peasant or a ploughman, or a chaplain...what she longs for is a thick, leaping, robust piece of equipment, long, smooth and stiff".

There is nothing shocking about this. Women aren't somehow innocent by nature. The idea that a woman will find a way to have freaky, promiscuous sex with men she's attracted to if she can negotiate a path that has no obvious consequences is downright obvious, because that's what people are like. Most "respectable" women accomplish this by cheating quietly, letting their hamster tell them it "just happened", and rolling the dice on a lucrative divorce settlement if they get caught. "Open relationship" woman went the other way with it, spent years breaking this guy down to prepare the battlespace, then dropped the Tsar Bomba of shit-tests.

[Vill@in]

(01-05-2018 11:20 AM)Jetset Wrote:  

It's always three semi-employed neckbeards sharing the bills for one unfuckable fat chick's shitty apartment, because she's so undesirable that she can neither secure one man who she actually wants to fuck nor convince one man she doesn't to provide for her, and the men are all so undesirable and low-status that they have to openly split one throwaway between them. This literal circle-jerk of failure is reimagined as being edgy and open-minded, which maximizes the unremarkable woman's ability to finally get attention.

[HankMoody]

(01-05-2018 11:52 AM)The Alpha Virgin Wrote:  

How do you know the guys aren't sleeping with others too?

It doesn't matter if they are.

No masculine male would allow their significant other to openly sleep with other men.

[kaotic]

Hank, you, Noir, Jetset, Rhyme, and Merc all are right.

It's a multiplying factor of all of the above.

Merc's porn comment is spot on - it does rewire the brain and fucks up our reward system when banging women. I stopped watching porn years ago because of this. It also fucks with women who watch porn to. Why are we jerking off to another dude fucking a chick we'll probably never ever get to bang? Just this simple question was enough for me.

Instead I bang multiple times a week and have a high sex drive instead - albeit this probably comes with issue of losing pair bonding traits the more I do it with new girls.

You're right about this Hank, men are turning into pussies, contraception is all reward without the risk, and cultural marxism is destroying the nuclear family unit, the amount of single moms on dating apps has skyrocketed in the past 5 years for example.

Noir nails it with talking about BC - as I said low risk high reward, women can be loose without the consequences (say hi HPV), STD rates have hit record highs in America and my state is damned near the top (CA).

Jetset & Ryhme are absolutely regarding the interaction it's a transactional relationship where the end game is a women being you have 2 soy boys fighting over a shitty piece of meat whose obviously fucked in the head.

The guys always lose because there's a thousand dicks to replace them, versus a handful to replace a woman in that relationship.

If a woman EVER asks you about an open relationship, you've lose your frame and power in the relationship, the only thingy you can do is downgrade her to fuck buddy or bounce.

Female hamsters have no bounds - a woman saying she's in an "ethical non monogamous relationship" is basically for the most part yearning for attention and occasionally getting dicked down.

Any girl that says poly, non monog, open relationship, unicorn, or whatever is simply hamstering away that she cannot be loyal, trust worthy, and those phrases are slut tells - rarely have I banged one of these, and maybe one was close to being a hottie.

If you been around in the punk scene and online dating sites as long as I have - you'll know the first thing that stands out is these are SJW's, short/bright colored hair, piercings and tats galore, hipster glasses, and for the most part not in shape or chubby.

The fact is, these women hardly have any options, and so do their soy boyfriends, it's a desperate attempt to attract a man of higher stature by openly stating they're down to fuck even if they're in a relationship.

[Rocha]

I think it is Beta to think much about what Betas do. I can also bang their girlfriends for all I care.

[Jetset]

(01-05-2018 12:34 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

you'll know the first thing that stands out is these are SJW's, short/bright colored hair, piercings and tats galore, hipster glasses, and for the most part not in shape or chubby....The fact is, these women hardly have any options, and so do their soy boyfriends, it's a desperate attempt to attract a man of higher stature by openly stating they're down to fuck even if they're in a relationship.

...and I think this is the really sad part of the attention-seeking aspect of it. There are a lot of young women who accept the blue pill narrative, too, and many of these women genuinely believe they're interesting, fun, and special because they're doing whatever they heard was different, equalist, and trendy.

So say you're in her shoes, and your Twitter profile says you're "poly" now, and you're getting more attention than ever, but you can't figure out why you're not getting the kind of attention you want from a man who isn't a trainwreck.

It can't be that you're actually branding yourself as a reject, need to get away from your messed up friends, and put in the work to get your flab under control, right? That's so shallow, and learning to bake sounds hard.

Now you're 40, living in Portland with your cats, a fatherless son with a neck tattoo who sexually identifies as a subwoofer, and a rotation of pot dealers with mild autism and ear gauges. Somebody played a mean trick on you. Of course, none of this is your fault. It can't be. Life just sucks. Maybe marching in a pussy hat will help.

[xxx]

Now that I think about it, it actually makes sense; take the genes from the alpha and have the beta provide and raise the baby. In this way the alpha can spread his superior seed far and wide, ultimately contributing to the thriving of the species.

It's evolutionarily correct, and has been happening since the dawn of time, but definitely not openly. The fathers did not know that the baby wasn't theirs. Only contraception allows this to go openly because the woman isn't getting pregnant and so there is no consequence.

If the woman doesn't get pregnant, the activity is redundant, and it's kind of proof that we act on instincts that provide chemical reward, rather than on reason.

[PapayaTapper]

(01-05-2018 11:42 AM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  

@Jetset

I encountered a 'poly couple' at a dive bar awhile back. Dude was fat, low T, effete. Chick was a dumpy, fat, and probably 20 years younger than the dude. They tried to drone on about how open minded they were and how their relationship model 'prevents jealousy'.

Perhaps chunky wanted to break her off a little RoR while chode daddy watched?

[heavy]

Paging JJ Roberts

Oh yeah he's banned.

Quote:

Sex 3.0: A Sexual Revolution Manual

Right now we are at tipping point. The Sex 2.0 lifestyle of modern day society is undergoing a cascading failure. Don’t panic, this is a good thing. Sex 2.0 needs to die. It has served its purpose and it’s time for humanity to move onto something better. The book details the history of human sexual relationships in the time before property or marriage even existed, how we evolved to our modern day Sex 2.0 lifestyle and how and why we created the problems that make modern day sexual relationships so hard. Far more importantly, it details a way forward to a Sex 3.0 world. A world of mutual understanding between men and women and a return to nature.

I remember hearing him on the Art of Charm podcast years ago and was so damn furious at his bull-shit logic.

That said, I credit the guy for writing and promoting his book.

[The Alpha Virgin]

(01-05-2018 12:03 PM)HankMoody Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 11:52 AM)The Alpha Virgin Wrote:  

How do you know the guys aren't sleeping with others too?

It doesn't matter if they are.

No masculine male would allow their significant other to openly sleep with other men.

I agree with you but I think you made it sound like the women were the only ones in the relationship that could sleep with others and it seemed like you exaggerated a bit. Like they'd get turned on by their women sleeping with other men. Just trying to be objective.
I think it's just more that these guys have been indoctrinated with liberal feminist ideas and think there's some sort of virtue in showing no jealousy and having zero spine.

I will say this though...!

I've fooled my own girlfriend to make it seem like I'm "open-minded" like a liberal and that I'd have little problem with her sleeping with another guy as long as she's honest to me about it first. But obviously, if she ever told me she wanted to fuck another dude and be in a open-relationship with me at some point, I'd kick her out.

So I've portrayed it like she's free to do whatever she wants (as long as we're honest) but she has told me she hates the idea of being with another guy etc. And we've had a few chill conversations about it, nothing awkward.

I think this is a good way to go about it. I think many people that are unfaithful are so because they get turned on by the huge taboo surrounding it. And if the girl was ever about to cheat anyway, I think there's more of a chance that she actually comes clear and tell me about it because she thinks it won't be the dead end of the relationship. Plus she's not walking around fooling herself thinking I'm not attracted to other womens' bodies and that my male instincts are telling me to go and fuck them, so it's like she understands what a huge sacrifice I'm making just to be exclusive to her.