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Fear of Flying
#51

Fear of Flying

Quote:Quote:

I don't consider myself afraid of flying, but I can never fully relax in planes either. The thought that I'm in a tin can filled with explosive fuel 35k feet above the ground moving at 600mph just won't allow me to fully unwind.

Same with me, not afraid but I still don't overly enjoy the experience, especially take off and landing always feel a bit nervous. I got worse as I got older, I've flown since I was a kid and never had any problem with it but as an adult it seemed to freak me out a little more. It's not a major problem I'll still get on a flight.
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#52

Fear of Flying

Quote: (06-02-2012 08:00 PM)americanInEurope Wrote:  

I'm talking about the Air France flight that went down coming from Brasil in 2009. The one where it took them like 8 months to find the black box because it was so deep underwater. I watched a documentary about that recently. They stalled all the way to their deaths. Right now I also happen to be watching a docu about the Air Arrow flight 1285 that killed 248 guys from the 101st Airborne in 1985. Also due to a stall after takeoff. They crashed and burned right outside the airport. The main report said it was because of ice on the wings, but other minority reports claim it was also due to the plane being 1200lbs overweight. They tried to takeoff against the wind, 1200lbs overweight, exactly the same thing we would have done in Atlanta had the pilot not been astute to the situation. We were actually 2000lbs overweight. I know @AntiTrace thinks it's ok for the plane, a huge 767 (the kind that does flights from the USA to Germany, not a little Cessna) to be overweight when it's taking off and trying to pick up airspeed against the wind, but I'm glad the pilot didn't think so.

I'm not so much afraid of a midair collision than I am of stalling and not being able to get out of it. That's why takeoff and landing are the most stressful times for me.

1200lb is fuck all for a DC-8. It probably had nothing to do with the crash. There would have to be a lot of more serious fuck ups along the way for 1200lbs to matter. Ice is the big killer out there, I have a very healthy respect for it. As for the head wind/tail wind situation. During takeoffs a solid head wind is a good thing, it reduces roll distance meaning you have more space to stop if something bad comes up. You lift up sooner and climb obstacles faster. During cruise head wind is undesirable, you fly longer and burn more gas. That's probably why your pilot wanted to dump 2000lbs of bags and most likely to load it up with gas. Take off head wind had nothing to do with it, unless a wind shear or other unexpected wind change.

Tail wind during take off is bad. In cruise is very much welcomed.

As for the Air France crash. The whole cockpit was a mess. It's easy to judge the situation sitting on the ground with rum and coke in hand. Thunderstorms can be serious not only due to load factors but because of ice. Their instrument panel was giving them messed up indications because the pitot/static system was iced up. They're sitting in cloud totally disoriented not knowing if they're in a climb or a descent, upside down or in a spiral. Stick shaker on and warning flashes not really helping at that point. It's a very confusing and pretty fucking scary situation to be in and trying to sort it all out under pressure.
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#53

Fear of Flying

Quote: (06-07-2012 08:30 PM)CrackerJack Wrote:  

Quote: (06-02-2012 08:00 PM)americanInEurope Wrote:  

I'm talking about the Air France flight that went down coming from Brasil in 2009. The one where it took them like 8 months to find the black box because it was so deep underwater. I watched a documentary about that recently. They stalled all the way to their deaths. Right now I also happen to be watching a docu about the Air Arrow flight 1285 that killed 248 guys from the 101st Airborne in 1985. Also due to a stall after takeoff. They crashed and burned right outside the airport. The main report said it was because of ice on the wings, but other minority reports claim it was also due to the plane being 1200lbs overweight. They tried to takeoff against the wind, 1200lbs overweight, exactly the same thing we would have done in Atlanta had the pilot not been astute to the situation. We were actually 2000lbs overweight. I know @AntiTrace thinks it's ok for the plane, a huge 767 (the kind that does flights from the USA to Germany, not a little Cessna) to be overweight when it's taking off and trying to pick up airspeed against the wind, but I'm glad the pilot didn't think so.

I'm not so much afraid of a midair collision than I am of stalling and not being able to get out of it. That's why takeoff and landing are the most stressful times for me.

1200lb is fuck all for a DC-8. It probably had nothing to do with the crash. There would have to be a lot of more serious fuck ups along the way for 1200lbs to matter. Ice is the big killer out there, I have a very healthy respect for it. As for the head wind/tail wind situation. During takeoffs a solid head wind is a good thing, it reduces roll distance meaning you have more space to stop if something bad comes up. You lift up sooner and climb obstacles faster. During cruise head wind is undesirable, you fly longer and burn more gas. That's probably why your pilot wanted to dump 2000lbs of bags and most likely to load it up with gas. Take off head wind had nothing to do with it, unless a wind shear or other unexpected wind change.

Tail wind during take off is bad. In cruise is very much welcomed.

As for the Air France crash. The whole cockpit was a mess. It's easy to judge the situation sitting on the ground with rum and coke in hand. Thunderstorms can be serious not only due to load factors but because of ice. Their instrument panel was giving them messed up indications because the pitot/static system was iced up. They're sitting in cloud totally disoriented not knowing if they're in a climb or a descent, upside down or in a spiral. Stick shaker on and warning flashes not really helping at that point. It's a very confusing and pretty fucking scary situation to be in and trying to sort it all out under pressure.

CrackerJack, if you read the link I posted a few above, the pitot tubes and all other instruments actually started working again when they were still 30k+ feet in the air. The autopilot disengaged (do to incorrect speed readings due to frozen pitot tubes) while the lowest rank co-pilot was in control. Everything from that moment was 95% his fault. He literally held the stick back the entire rest of the flight til its demise.
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#54

Fear of Flying

Quote: (06-07-2012 08:37 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

CrackerJack, if you read the link I posted a few above, the pitot tubes and all other instruments actually started working again when they were still 30k+ feet in the air. The autopilot disengaged (do to incorrect speed readings due to frozen pitot tubes) while the lowest rank co-pilot was in control. Everything from that moment was 95% his fault. He literally held the stick back the entire rest of the flight til its demise.

I read the link. It's from a magazine, and I try to stay away from popular media reports as they're full of "experts" that oversimplify a situation like "all he had to do was push on the stick." A full TSB report is what I would be looking for.

When the AP disconnects they don't know if it's the pitot/static system. Since they're in the storm it might have been turbulence responsible. There is no clear indication that a pitot/static system is iced up and giving erroneous indications. There is no warning light that tells your airspeed went haywire. You have to figure that shit out yourself if it's only dynamic ie pitot tube, or a static port, or both. Each situation affects the instruments (airspeed, vertical speed, altimeter) differently. From the reports so far it seems static was ok but the pitot tube was blocked, which means the airspeed starts to behave like an altimeter. It doesn't show a 0 or a red flag, it shows some weird number that can totally confuse you when you're in cloud and in turbulence. When you pull up in this situation the airspeed indication will show a rise, just like an altimeter, which is the opposite of how it should react. None of the populist media will mention this little part.

The stall warning system is connected to airspeed among other things, and it also will not function properly. They might have just ignored it at that point. It seems they had a sensory overload, and just couldn't figure it out in time. Even if the system went back online, there's no indication you're still not being fed bullshit. Like I said you have to figure this stuff out under pressure, it's not that easy as they paint it.

And I can guarantee you that for every major crash like this, there's at least a hundred not reported to the public that's been safely dealt with by the crew.

"If it ain't Boeing I ain't going."
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#55

Fear of Flying

I've actually spend countless hours reading about aviation disasters on Wikipedia. Japan Airlines 123 and American Airlines 191 are particularly horrifying as they deal with catastrophic structural failures.

Shit is crazy.
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#56

Fear of Flying

Quote: (06-07-2012 10:57 PM)CrackerJack Wrote:  

And I can guarantee you that for every major crash like this, there's at least a hundred not reported to the public that's been safely dealt with by the crew.

"If it ain't Boeing I ain't going."

I don't think I helped with the fear of flying topic. In any case it's way safer than driving scooters drunk in Phuket.
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#57

Fear of Flying

I'm an airline pilot, and 99% interested in poon+travel with regard to this site, but its been entertaining reading this thread - and FYI, about par for layman's knowledge of flying.

First, I'm really bored at work after 27 years of driving a $200 million dollar bus around the planet. Most of us are bored, and often sleepy - and we often nap when flying long-haul, especially at night. Yes, we engage the autopilot right after takeoff usually and many times utilize the auto-land system at the airport we are enroute. Amazing shit, even has auto-brakes - I just takeover the nose-wheel steering after landing roll-out and taxi to the gate, which is usually the most difficult part of the flight. Its almost completely automated; flight plan, fuel plan, navigation and even the control of the airplane. Taxiing and talking to ATC is about it. Not bad for $200 bucks an hour. You won't get rich, in fact most pilots are poor thanks to Amerikan divorce courts and the dangerous attraction to marriage and procreation that most men have. But, lest I digress........

No, you're not likely to die on an airplane, unless you have a heart attack or choke on the dog food that we serve you with a scowl these days. Remember, I die first - as in nose first - and even though I'm bored, rest assured that I and most all of us (save for a few bizarre pilot suicides; Egyptair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990 , SilkAir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185 ) have no interest in spending our final moments with you.

A couple of points if I may:

Most pilots from developed countries are well trained and generally competent, at least in my experience, and I have worked all over the world. That said, when you board a plane in most of Africa, parts of LatAm, Russia/FSU, China, Indonesia, Phils, Indian subcontinent - may Allah/local god - be with you. The Nigerian MD-80 that "landed short" in Lagos a few days ago is probably a good case in point. Ex-Alaska Airlines airplane that was probably poorly maintained by a shit-bag operation run by Afri-gangsters. Pilot was a sad sack gringo trying to make an expat buck. I've been "in his seat" before.

Most airplanes are well designed technological marvels - maintained to varying degrees of airworthiness; see above.....

Most airplane crashes are indeed, pilot error. Further, most all these type crashes are the result of "cascading errors" - a series of mistakes, one of which is usually not serious enough to "terminate the flight early". But, when put together.....this is going to hurt, a lot, but not for long.

Yes, we train for emergencies in the simulator. But, you would be surprised at how many things are not included in the training program at even the best airlines. Most emergencies do also occur during the departure/arrival profile of a flight, and thus that takes up a lot of the training. For example, a "V1 cut" - an engine failure on take off - is obviously something you want your pilot TO KNOW. You'd be surprised how many dumb fucks flunk this test - they over-rotate the aircraft and stall......can you say "fireball"? Contrary to an earlier comment - NO, we do not practice "dead stick' landings (full power loss). There have been a few cases of happy "dead stick" landings of commercial aircraft - if I were a pax on a flight that lost all power, I would get up and walk the isle looking for the hottest chica on the airplane and grab her tits before we "landed". Also, you might be shocked to learn that most airline pilots are never trained to recover from a high altitude stall. Why? It's pretty fucking obvious what to do. Which leads to the AF Rio-Paris story.......

With regard to AF447. That was a complete cluster-fuck from the moment the auto-pilot disconnected and a clearly incompetent second officer was sadly in command. 4 minutes of complete confusion and amazingly bad crew coordination skills. Also, some rather bad design flaws on the Airbus that you will never read about. On the other hand, a black, moonless night transiting the inter-tropical convergence zone in shitty weather - thunderstorms, turbulence, icing - is not for the faint of heart. I've flown through that and it can get very uncomfortable at night. You are possibly in a radio dead zone - "transmitting in the blind" - where there is no ATC support, no radar coverage and all you have is ride reports from other aircraft in the area. Eyes glued to the weather radar - avoid the "magenta"!!!, engage engine ignition "ON" in the event you encounter massive rain or hail and have an engine(s) flame-out - oh, and you're hours from an airport in the middle of the ocean.

Enjoy your flight!
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#58

Fear of Flying

Thanks Lostgringo, I feel better now! Lol.

That last part is exactly why transoceanic flights have me on edge. If there is a problem, you may be many hours from a landing strip. ETOPS rating or not, I don't feel good about it. Especially at night and seeing nothing but an abyss of blackness above and below me.
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#59

Fear of Flying

LostGringo, hopefully after you grab the tittie you still land it like a boss: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

I was going to ask if you had flight attendants all over your nuts, but then I remembered that these days that 90% are gross cows and even some dudes now.
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#60

Fear of Flying

Quote: (06-07-2012 04:24 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Quote: (06-07-2012 12:02 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

If you want to develop a fear of flying, read about France Flight 447:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technolo...47-6611877

Its cockpit and analysis. Its pretty incredible that the plane basically crashed because one pilot was acting incredibly retarded. At one point I was smh. I'm not a pilot, but most people on this forum being reasonably intelligent will not be able to believe this.

That was a really good article. The comments below it from other pilots and trainers are enlightening too. That last few minutes must have been one hell of a terrifying ride for the passengers. What I don't understand is why the captain would get up to take a nap right before they entered the most dangerous part of the flight. Makes no sense to me.
Damn, what a shitty way to die. I don't even know what I'd do. Put on some headphones and ride it out [Image: banana.gif]
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#61

Fear of Flying

Quote: (06-07-2012 06:41 PM)AlphaTravel Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

I don't consider myself afraid of flying, but I can never fully relax in planes either. The thought that I'm in a tin can filled with explosive fuel 35k feet above the ground moving at 600mph just won't allow me to fully unwind.

Same with me, not afraid but I still don't overly enjoy the experience, especially take off and landing always feel a bit nervous. I got worse as I got older, I've flown since I was a kid and never had any problem with it but as an adult it seemed to freak me out a little more. It's not a major problem I'll still get on a flight.

From the very first time I boarded and airplane, I've always looked out the window for take-off and landings (if I'm actually awake). To this day, like a little kid, I love it. One of the most beautiful approaches I've ever witnessed was coming into Salt Lake City. I love the Vegas approach because the airport is basically at the end of The Strip. Of course, I always love coming back home to NYC, and seeing all the familiar landmarks from the air.

"The best kind of pride is that which compels a man to do his best when no one is watching."
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