[fortysix]

Wanted to get some advice on a potential career move from you guys.

For the past four years, I’ve been working at a boutique firm (think finance / regulation). I make a great salary for similar professionals with my general background, in general, but my salary is actually about 30-50k below market for similar professionals in the very very very specific niche that I work in. The reason that I’m so below market in this niche is because I wasn’t able to get a job one of the big firms that primarily services this niche (grades weren’t up to snuff), so I networked my way into my boutique. My job is great and very cushy, and I know that many people would love to exit from a big firm to my current position (there would be a substantial pay-cut, but a much better lifestyle). However, its very difficult to make the jump backwards (boutique to large firm), although I'm working on trying to make this happen as well.

Anyway, I’m getting tired of my current job and, again by networking, was able to get an interview at an in-house department of a mid-cap company that’s looking to hire. The company is not a firm, but a regular company that has an in-house team that does their legal work. Based on information I’ve gathered online, I’m estimating that most people who work there moved from big firms and make about 50-75% more than I make right now. I would love to get a job there and build my career at this company - I love their industry and it would also open up a lot of future opportunities for me.

Well, I’ve hit a bit of snag – I had a screener interview today with the Company’s HR department – mind you, I’ve carved out my career working at small boutiques, so I’ve never went through a formal “HR-Interview” process, and wasn’t really sure what to expect. The recruiter was very nice and told me a lot about the Company and its values. Then, out of nowhere, she asks “so how much are you currently making?”

I was taken aback – I wasn’t at all prepared for this question, so I told her my current salary (apparently, this was a huge mistake). At this point, she tells me that the Company hires on a “lateral” basis, and so I should expect a maximum of 5% salary bump, if I have the pleasure of being hired. I didn’t know what to say so I told her “OK – I need to review the terms of any offer, and we will go from there.” They just scheduled my first face-to-face interview with the actual team I would be working with next week.

Here’s the problem – everyone on the hiring team lateraled in from big large firms (I checked out their bios), and, if they were hired according to the “lateral hire” guidelines the HR told me about, they are all making at least 50-75% more than I currently make – and they have the same work experience as me (if not worse).

If they offered me a lateral salary at my current salary, I would be extremely disappointed – I want at least 50% higher than I’m currently making to accept an offer. Does it even make sense for me to interview at this point? Can I seriously counter their offer (if I get one) with one 50% higher and be taken seriously? Has anyone ever dealt with this situation before in the past? Did I totally screw myself?

[johnwain]

Sounds kind of similar to a situation i had, not same industry but working in niche field and was paid well below market standard.

Just my thoughts:
Big mistake with giving away your salary, unless they exactly know i would keep quiet, put it on them or say youre earning well above what you are and beyond that it would have to be worth your while to jump ship due to uncertainty, new job, probation etc.

Like with women, it helps to have as many legitimate options as possible to improve your position. I was pretty lucky in this regard and kept saying 'im not sure which company i prefer, if you made me a strong offer on my table asap that would really help'

Dont downplay your current company, even if you hate it make it seem like it's ok and you need a good offer to move.

Still proceed with the interview above, aim high for salary jump if you get it and disregard if it's only 5% and learn for next time

[floridaboiii]

(06-27-2017 04:49 PM)fortysix Wrote:  

Wanted to get some advice on a potential career move from you guys.

For the past four years, I’ve been working at a boutique firm (think finance / regulation). I make a great salary for similar professionals with my general background, in general, but my salary is actually about 30-50k below market for similar professionals in the very very very specific niche that I work in. The reason that I’m so below market in this niche is because I wasn’t able to get a job one of the big firms that primarily services this niche (grades weren’t up to snuff), so I networked my way into my boutique. My job is great and very cushy, and I know that many people would love to exit from a big firm to my current position (there would be a substantial pay-cut, but a much better lifestyle). However, its very difficult to make the jump backwards (boutique to large firm), although I'm working on trying to make this happen as well.

Anyway, I’m getting tired of my current job and, again by networking, was able to get an interview at an in-house department of a mid-cap company that’s looking to hire. The company is not a firm, but a regular company that has an in-house team that does their legal work. Based on information I’ve gathered online, I’m estimating that most people who work there moved from big firms and make about 50-75% more than I make right now. I would love to get a job there and build my career at this company - I love their industry and it would also open up a lot of future opportunities for me.

Well, I’ve hit a bit of snag – I had a screener interview today with the Company’s HR department – mind you, I’ve carved out my career working at small boutiques, so I’ve never went through a formal “HR-Interview” process, and wasn’t really sure what to expect. The recruiter was very nice and told me a lot about the Company and its values. Then, out of nowhere, she asks “so how much are you currently making?”

I was taken aback – I wasn’t at all prepared for this question, so I told her my current salary (apparently, this was a huge mistake). At this point, she tells me that the Company hires on a “lateral” basis, and so I should expect a maximum of 5% salary bump, if I have the pleasure of being hired. I didn’t know what to say so I told her “OK – I need to review the terms of any offer, and we will go from there.” They just scheduled my first face-to-face interview with the actual team I would be working with next week.

Here’s the problem – everyone on the hiring team lateraled in from big large firms (I checked out their bios), and, if they were hired according to the “lateral hire” guidelines the HR told me about, they are all making at least 50-75% more than I currently make – and they have the same work experience as me (if not worse).

If they offered me a lateral salary at my current salary, I would be extremely disappointed – I want at least 50% higher than I’m currently making to accept an offer. Does it even make sense for me to interview at this point? Can I seriously counter their offer (if I get one) with one 50% higher and be taken seriously? Has anyone ever dealt with this situation before in the past? Did I totally screw myself?

@ fortysix and whoever else can I ask you a question?

I'm 23 I work for one of the largest banks in the world, albeit in an entry level position making shitty pay.... great benefits. I have a degree. I came in making even less than my peers who do not have degrees... who also really aren't making that much money either. I never knew that I could actually negotiate the offer so I just accepted it. I am 5 months into the job. At the 6 month mark they are supposed to do a review and give you a raise based on performance, you can also move up in the dept. 1 year you can transfer to a different department they also pay for more schooling after a year. My plan is that if I don't get enough of a raise in a month I will jump ship. However I also might need to accept that my shitty marketing degree doesn't mean anything and maybe I should stick it out no matter what. It really is a great company I think with lots of potential for growth but six more months not making any money would be tough. Also coming on here and seeing all these people traveling the world making six figures makes me feel like I'm selling myself short with how much I'm making right now. Any suggestions?

Also I have been keeping a lookout at other positions but like you said everyone asks my current salary and its so low that I don't really have any leverage so that's also why I'm piggybacking this thread.

Like I said I'm 23 I haven't dealt with the situation (Only on my second professional job) so my advice is probably stupid but people have told me I should exaggerate my salary by a few thousand if applicable, if you do it by like 50% then it may seem unbelievable... but then again it depends on your industry and the company you're coming from if its believable then maybe you can just lie... people have told me they have done it. That's for future reference.

But honestly if you can back up asking for a 75% raise with experience and charisma in your interview ask for it, the worst they can say is no... They might laugh at you... they might say its not doable and offer you something higher than the 5% but not as much as what you asked for. They have all the leverage now though, they know how much you make.

[Cattle Rustler]

FYI: If you're trying to hype your income some companies will ask for proof of your previous income (check stub or W2). So thread carefully, especially with a lateral transfer.

[Hypno]

In the legal field they will insist on knowing your current comp., so don't sweat that one.

Typically they'll give you 20% - 25% to change jobs. 5% is too little and not worth changing.

In negotiations, there is something called a BATNA - best alternative to a negotiated agreement. In other words, their offer is 5% over where you are now. With the risks of a change, forfeited bonuses, etc., your best alternative is to stay put. At 20%, your best alternative is probably to jump ship even if you are still below market. They know this as do all HR departments. The only leverage you have is they might have to pay closer to market to fill the role. There is a lot of experienced, legal talent, so they probably have more cards than you.

Try to get 25% over what you have now along with a one-time signing bonus. Also, with your supervisor, "negotiate" your job. Tell them you would like a performance review after 6-12 months and if you are doing x, y, and z then you would expect a salary review up to market. Once you are there, gain experience and then make another switch.

Also, do you know what your current billing rate? Do you know what this company pays for your services? Say they are paying $500/hour for outside counsel. If that guy bills 2,000 hours, that $1 million revenue for the firm. In law firms, this gets split 3 ways - a third covers overhead, a third goes to the partners' profits, and a third is available for the attorney. So if you bill 2,000 hours at $500, you should be making $333,000. Those are just ballpark numbers, but its a good way to gauge if you are over or under paid.

[mvp]

I am in a very similar situation at this very moment. I have a final interview this week. Now the industries are completely different. The new opportunity I think will offer me less in the short term but it is a very clearly defined career path that with good performance will lead to a significantly bigger salary. However where I am currently working offers a hell of a lot of perks. I am a top performer, excellent flexibility and no stress, however future (5 years) does not look so rosy. I think I will stick to my current job as it is time to get away from the corporate grind once I have enough cash saved up.

I recommend you read Rich Dad, Poor Dad as it gives a very interesting perspective.

Now for your particular situation. You definitely screwed up by telling them your actual salary. This is a huge lesson to learn for anyone reading this. Always go in with a plan to an interview. This means have the numbers in your head and be very clear on what is your absolute minimum to accept the job. If you earn $50k you probably want a 25% increase bottom line, so have it clear that you will not accept anything below $62.5k. I would therefore go in asking for $80k or more. It may sounds ridiculous but never sell yourself short. The company will always try to pay you the least amount possible and you do not know their budget, you may even get that ridiculous number if you are lucky. Most people only focus on the money, this is a huge mistake. Write down your current perks and benefits and make sure you negotiate these in on top of the salary plus any other extras you want e.g. you want 30 vacation days instead of the usual 10 or 15, one or two days working from home etc. This is your precious time you are trading for money so make it count, there is no re-negotiating once you are in as they will probably only give you the standard 3-5% raise to cover inflation.

Now for the good news. Although you screwed up by telling them your salary, you now have nothing to lose. You are content at your current job so use this as an experiment. You lose nothing by asking for the 50% increase you want. If you don't ask, you don't get. Swing for the fences and again you may end up getting what you want. If they say no just thank them for their time and wish them luck in filling the role. Another opportunity will always appear and if you don't feel comfortable negotiating I suggest you use a Headhunter who will negotiate on your behalf (remember the more you get paid the more commission the Headhunter makes, so it is in their interest to get you the best offer. If the job or offer doesn't feel right do not let them push you or convince you otherwise).

Let us know how it went. Go in there feeling like you are worth a million dollars, be confident but not arrogant and just remember, what is the worst that could happen? They tell you no, you go back to your current job and apply somewhere else, no big deal.

If you do get your pay raise, please for the love of god do not let lifestyle creep happen. Bank the extra money until you can invest in income generating assets, don't be like the 99% that goes and buys a new car, bigger house,etc, and in 6 months find yourself needing more cash.

Good Luck!

[5-7 Hedonist]

Add me to the Let us know how it went comment/request.

[Barron]

Use the, "I expect to make X dollars" line.
Someone asking you flat out "How much do you currently make?" is straight up unprofessional. If they don't like the "I expect to make" line, be sure to put it on them that their question is far too personal and you'd prefer not to answer. Do Not waver, you already told them what you expect to make and it should be enough, assuming your experience/portfolio is up to par.

[Soyouz]

I've always said : "For privacy reasons, I can't give any information regarding my current compensation. However, for me to quit my current employer, I would need ___$ in order to accept a job somewhere else".

They might insist on having your real salary, or ask for a proof. I would advise not to do it.

Once they make you an offer, you can also gamble if you're not satisfied. Let's say they offer you 100k, tell them "I'll think about it and give you an answer within 24 hours". Then wait, call them back and say "I'm still interested by your offer, but my current employer (or another employer) made me a counter-offer, I would be willing to accept yours, but only for 105k". It's a risky move, but it could work.

[Off The Reservation]

Is this really how people think / talk in the corporate world?

[qwertyuiop]

(06-27-2017 11:27 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

Is this really how people think / talk in the corporate world?

Yup.

It's an interesting place to say the least.

[birthday cat]

I think you can get more than the 5%. You could also use the new offer to push for a promotion and raise at your existing job...but you've got to be willing to leave if you try that.

(06-27-2017 04:49 PM)fortysix Wrote:  

Then, out of nowhere, she asks “so how much are you currently making?”

People try to catch you off guard with questions like this so you will have an emotional reaction and possibly say something that you will later regret. It's difficult to quickly come up with answers to these types of questions and the person asking the question knows this.

A good line to use for any negotiation or tricky situation is "let me think about it."

They ask how much you make. You respond with "Let me think about it. I'm not sure if I want to disclose that information so I need to think about it."

It may not seem like the greatest answer but it's easy to execute because it's simple and applies to many situations. Execution is the most difficult part.

It's difficult to argue against this. There is no counter-argument. If they push you then you say "this is important to me so I really want to think about it."

[Seadog]

(06-27-2017 11:27 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

Is this really how people think / talk in the corporate world?

That's my sentiment exactly. They may as well say "Well you need to understand we're out to fuck you..." It also assumes that money is the primary benefit of work. I almost wouldn't want to deal with the on principle. If they're acting like this now at the honeymoon/recruiting stage, what's in store a year down the road? Would it be appropriate to counter and say "what's you're highest paid person with a job comparable to mine? Show me your accounting books. We'll knock 5% off that and use it as a starting point?"

[fortysix]

(06-28-2017 04:03 AM)Seadog Wrote:  

(06-27-2017 11:27 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

Is this really how people think / talk in the corporate world?

That's my sentiment exactly. They may as well say "Well you need to understand we're out to fuck you..." It also assumes that money is the primary benefit of work. I almost wouldn't want to deal with the on principle. If they're acting like this now at the honeymoon/recruiting stage, what's in store a year down the road? Would it be appropriate to counter and say "what's you're highest paid person with a job comparable to mine? Show me your accounting books. We'll knock 5% off that and use it as a starting point?"

Hahaha! I honestly laughed out loud when I read that. I am considering interviewing for a job that I really have no interest in working just so that I can use that line and see the interviewer's reaction.

Guys - thank you very much for your comments. I will come back and let you know how everything turns out - my next interview is just another "screener" with someone I may be working with, so I may not be discussing salary yet - will keep you posted!

[General Stalin]

Never move for 5% unless you desperately want to GTFO of your current place.

Always lie about your current salary. Better than that; never disclose your current salary. Tell them what you'd like to make. Any employee should respect the confidence one has to speak their desires like that instead of "whatever you think is fair."

My current job they asked me that so I bloated my pay almost 20% and told them "I would like to at least have my current pay matched." My now-boss called me the next day with the offer and the pay was $2k below what I wanted so I said I would like it bumped up and he told me he'd call me back. He called me back a couple hours later and said that was fine.

[fortysix]

(06-28-2017 11:52 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Never move for 5% unless you desperately want to GTFO of your current place.

Always lie about your current salary. Better than that; never disclose your current salary. Tell them what you'd like to make. Any employee should respect the confidence one has to speak their desires like that instead of "whatever you think is fair."

My current job they asked me that so I bloated my pay almost 20% and told them "I would like to at least have my current pay matched." My now-boss called me the next day with the offer and the pay was $2k below what I wanted so I said I would like it bumped up and he told me he'd call me back. He called me back a couple hours later and said that was fine.

Totally agree with this - I'm prepared to move only if they give me a 50% increase (which theoretically just brings me up to market pay). Otherwise, I'm staying put.

I also agree with not disclosing your current salary, although its too late for that now...

I don't know about lying - I have heard companies requesting prior W2 forms (which may or may not be legal depending on the state you live in).

[Hypno]

You should never lie about your salary because if offered any half way competent HR department will ask to verify it. Respond instead that you know what your position is worth and it will take $X to get you to make a move. That tells them everything they need to know.

[ElFlaco]

Ramit Sethi has a bunch of videos about salary negotiation.

In this one, they do a role play and discuss the error of naming a salary you'd accept (at the 6:00 mark).

Many people don't even know the basics of interviewing. When my students practice interviewing in English, the stupid things they say are far worse than any English errors. I don't think it's accidental that the schools don't teach interviewing skills. A worker population of rule followers is what is wanted.

[Corollary]

^ That video reminds me of one of my salary discussions. They asked me for a range, and they came back with the number exactly in the middle of the range. That's when I knew I fucked up.

It's so true that they will pay you as little as they can get away with. If you say you only want so much, why would they pay you more?

Since you already gave them a number, you have nothing to lose. Next time the discussion comes up, ask for way more than you were even thinking about in the first place.

[Hypno]

That is good advice in general, but in law the comp is relatively lockstep and the recruiters have a box to check. If you don't answer the question, you get nexted.

[General Stalin]

I've never had a would-be employer ask to verify my current pay, but then again I haven't exactly company hopped a lot and also don't have any experience in working in HR or payroll. I suppose that's possible.

[Sonoma]

You fucked yourself on disclosing pay, but swing high. If they don't like it, you can always just stay put at your cushy job and try to veer into another similar position in the future.

Just a heads up though, I know a lot of people who are working in finance and just getting plowed 24/7, sometimes pay isn't everything.

[Suits]

Rule #1 of negotiation: Never negotiate against yourself.

I would suggest that OP seriously consider looking for other opportunities instead. Why would anyone want to work at a company that has an officially policy of fucking over all new employees?

"Lateral" is just a fancy word for "fuck you, we are going to pay you the absolute minimum we can get away with." If they won't even give you the opportunity to negotiate pay based on your value to their firm, just image what type of other policies they'll use to fuck you and benefit themselves once you've quit your job and are dependent on them for income.

[Steelex]

Its irrelevant.

You tell them your salary, they offer, you counter offer.

The lateral pay increase is a guideline, not a hard rule. They already have an idea of what you can bring them, the salary part is just an asshole in HR fucking you so he can get a bonus for hiring way under cost.

[Steelex]

Besides that, if you can't negotiate based on value right now, where do you expect to get your bargaining power from down the road?