Quote: (04-30-2016 11:38 AM)LEMONed IScream Wrote:
I've had this discussion so many times I should have a word-doc with ready made copy paste responses for it to be applied. I hold voluntaryism as the principle with most "truth" to it towards myself, which does not mean I would want that the US or anywhere else suddenly turned an-cap. That is not the point and it would be cohercion as well. As for closing the Somali issue, Somalia is not libertarian paradise.
By default an ideology such as "voluntaryism" or other libertarian ideals involves other people. So you can't just contain it within your own individualistic belief system and leave it at that. If it doesn't involve other people then it's really not relevant as a broader agent of change in society. It's just a personal belief. I may or may not believe in space aliens too my question is how relevant is that to you or to society?
Somalia is a libertarian paradise in the sense that it's a big giant patch of lawless territory where libertarians can theoretically set up their dream system. The fact that libertarians complain about it not being "ideal" to me is not only humorous but a giant red flag that they have no faith in the actual functional or practical efficacy of their ideologies.
Libertarians may get all pouty when you bring up Somalia but it is a totally legitimate scenario. If your social system and ideology can't survive in brutal frontier like conditions then what is its actual worth?
If your system can't work around basic fundamental issues like "How do we survive as a group when barbarians armed with AK-47s want to take my shit and use my sister, daughter, and wife as a cock socket" then what value is it?
Do you think the people who journeyed into the American frontier and battled off natives, competing european colonials, starvation, the elements, etc.. developed the government and institutions under ideal circumstances? Hell no.
It does not matter that Somalia is in Africa. Somalia could be on the moon. The issue is can your system survive in the frontier and bring people together in a practical method that would be a viable alternative to the political and social systems we have now?
If the answer is no, then it's all childish bullshit.
It's fantasy roleplay with grown men sitting in leather backed chairs talking about their alternate social systems
while living under the protection and societies built by the government and society that they scorn.
Turn these men out into the wild frontier and see how they do as a group.
If your system can't survive in less than ideal circumstances then it's absolute dog's balls.
There are some good points that libertarians bring up but most of them seem to want to develop their own alternative political, economy, and social community within an already existing system (which they scorn) as shelter. If their conviction is strong then they need to prove that their fundamental political and social ideology is workable in a real world environment from scratch.
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The problem is that you act as if an-cap is some sort of proposed Nirvana that will solve each and every problem in the world. It is not. Every single question you raised over there has precedence in statist contexts. The lazy umbrella term of human nature shows this even further. What would be more profitable to attack, an oil rich frail state or a tiny colony of 50-100 an-caps that are living their on their own terms? Whenever the issue arrives, people try to extract every single most "perfect" answer to an-cap, while never asking the same about the state because "that's just the way it is". As for the coercion within societies, there are ideas of security agencies and courts within an-cap context. You need to read a little bit more on what you're criticizing, because you are misrepresenting it.
I'm not saying a system has to be perfect to be valid. I'm saying it has to be practical and workable when compared with existing systems. What is the point of theorycrafting some bullshit that doesn't work or only works under ideal conditions which also include the fantasy assumptions that humans are all nice people who aren't going to shoot you in the back at first opportunity.
If you think a small community of 50-100 "libertarians" in the wild won't be raided I have a bridge in brooklyn and some swampland to sell you. Ask the rural whites in various parts of Africa what they think about that sometime. Oh wait, you can't because they are dead, silenced, or in a hospital somewhere after being gang raped.
The human nature question is not lazy. The fact that you think it is means you haven't really considered it enough or maybe you really don't understand how people really are when basic civility and law and order is stripped away.