[speakeasy]

There's an excellent article from money magazine today about the radically escalating cost of college and how people are not really getting a return on investment. Unlike other goods where the more you raise the price, the less demand you get, it's the opposite with colleges. Like sheep marching into a slaughterhouse, the more colleges raise tuition, the more people want to pile in. Not unlike the way more people piled into dotcom stocks and real estate as the prices go up thinking that if everyone else is paying more, than it must be worth something. The joke is on the student though. When you look into the future, students that went to a cheaper state university don't make significantly less than students that went to an expensive private uni. I think like health or the pharmaceutical industry, college pretends to be an institution that works for the public good, but under the surface, it's all about big business. The student will graduate loaded down with more debt than he or she can handle making less than the same job would've paid 10 years ago, when adjusted for inflation. Yet the cost of getting and education to do that job has grown MUCH greater than the rate of inflation. I think college is obviously necessary for many fields like science, medicine, law, engineering etc. But let's face it, I'd say the majority of people I know that went to college end up doing jobs not even related to their degree. For them college was nothing but a transfer of wealth from them to the university, no different than any other consumer item.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/20/pf/colle...2008082107

[duncanidaho]

That's a good article in Money, and it's a good point you're making. I've felt having a degree is somewhat of a tradition for a lot of families, not to mention the School you're expected to go to. My brother and sister graduated from the same university, and I was expected to do the same, but didn't want to and joined the military instead. Both of my siblings have graduated and not working occupations according to the degrees they earned, and neither has been to all the places in Europe I've been to while in the military, and I'm also making parr what my sister is earning with my graduated brother is earning the least of the three.

Do I still want to get a degree? Sorta, not so much for monetary potential, more for personal credentials. I think there have only been 2 jobs I couldn't apply for because I didn't know the right person to get me in and the job required a Bachelor's degree. Other than these 2 jobs I passed on all my other occupations came about from people I knew who recommended me. There's a good book called "The Peter Principle" that sums up a couple of things, but one of them is, it's not what you know but who you know that can get you a job/position that you want.

I'm not dismissing the idea that a degree is good to have, but I concur, for a lot of people college can be a ripoff.

[Roosh]

Correct, the university does not care about you and your future success, public and private. Just like a corporation, it's there to serve the executives first, shareholders second (i guess not in this case), and from there people at the top until you get to the workers/students. While I don't regret my college education, it burns every month i have to pay my student loans for a major that i am not using.

In the Washington Post the other day there was a story about the rising cost of textbooks. News like that just distracts people from the real issue: why isn't higher education free? It's free in many western europe countries. They have health care too. But like george carlin said, the owners of this country don't want a well-educated populace.

Our taxes go for wars and shitty public schools.

[broken]

If you pick the wrong major, College is a rip off.
You pick the right one, and you're laughing all the way to the bank.

There's an article on Salon about a woman who had a masters in writing but has to work a dead end job and now she has to take her 3 kids to a soup kitchen.

She would have made plenty of money as a Registered Nurse. But I'm willing to bet she had a burning desire to create and "express herself".

Problem with college is that people "follow their hearts and desires", but don't realize that their communication degree barely qualifies them to be a barista @ Caribou.

The only people who can say "it's not all about money" are people who can afford to.

Colleges should
- reduce the # of seats in non-lucrative majors or
- vastly reduce the tuition for non-lucrative majors

[duncanidaho]

Besides National Healthcare and a free higher education, I wish the US had Technical institutes or Apprenticeship programs. It's just as "broken" mentioned that people are trying to follow what they want to do and get degrees the institutions recommend, but those degrees don't offer squat in the real world market place except for a few jobs in the medical or law fields.

[Bernie]

Duncanidaho, you do NOT want National Healthcare. My brother had the unfortune of being stricken with Miller-Fischer syndrome, a sub variant of Guillan Barre while on a business trip in London.

In 12 hours he went from a normal adult to a blind invalid. His eyes and pupils were paralyzed, so he couldn't see much more than colored, blurred motion. He lost all reflexes, the ability to talk and control of his muscles. By the time, I got to London, he couldn't even sit on the side of his bed to piss without help.

The nurses had penned his "call button" to his gown. He couldn't see it, let alone control his muscles to "feel" for it. They did not have the nursing staff to check on him regularly despite the fact he couldn't call for help. They came at the beginning, and end of each 8 hour shift or if they need to change the bottle on his IgG treament.

When I got there they also wouldn't give him anything but Tylenol for the week long migraine he had been suffering. I talked a resident into writing a prescription that I had filled at a private pharmacy for his Imitrex. Why wouldn't they give him anything? COST TOO MUCH MONEY AND THEY DON'T EVEN STOCK IT IN THE HOSPITAL. So instead they gave him a cheap drug around the clock that is KNOWN to cause rebound migraines.

He couldn't feed himself, but they didn't have the nursing staff to feed him. So they'd just leave the meal tray in front of him and then pick it up 2 hours later untouched. If I hadn't flown there, he wouldn't have had anyone to feed him, wipe his nose, help him sit up to piss or get a clean urinal to piss in for that matter.

You CAN NOT imagine the lack of care that occurs due to lack of funding. You don't even want to think about what National Healthcare would do to new drug development...

On the other hand, I totally agree that public schools are a joke. If I was dictator of the world, tenure would be one of the first things I would eliminate.

[speakeasy]

Bernie, have you considered that perhaps your brother's experience is the exception? Polls I've seen show that most Brits are satisfied with their healthcare system. There is a great documentary you can find on the PBS website that compares US healthcare to many systems around the world. It talks about the inadequacies of all, and they do all have inadequacies. I'm not sure if we need a state-run healthcare system in the US, but we do need possibly more regulation to keep the cost of healthcare down because it has escalated far faster than the rate of inflation. A few months back, I got an ultrasound. I was in and out of the hospital within an hour. I have insurance, but the hospital had some conflict with the insurance company and had sent me the bill before the insurance matter was worked out. Guess what the bill was? $1200!!! That's right $1200 fucking dollars for what amounted to hour's worth of work for the hospital. Gee, if I could bill my clients $1200/hr I'd be set. Needless to say, I almost had a heart attack, but decided that would cost me even more, so I stayed calm. Luckily, the insurance was able to straighten out the dispute and I only paid a small deductible for the service. But had I not had coverage, I'd have been screwed. This is the kind of thing that is making Americans think seriously about national healthcare. You literally cannot afford to be sick, and I don't even mean things like brain surgery. Just a one hour ultrasound cost more than many 3rd world people make in a year. Something is broken.

[duncanidaho]

Bernie,
You have my empathy and condolences on the pain you and your brother went thru. I lived in the UK for 4 years when I was in the military, and a good friend of mine had to wait a year before having knee surgery, so I understand what you mean by National Healthcare having its negative factors. When I'm wishing for National Healthcare for the US what I'm hoping and wanting is for everyone to have access to good medical attention. Some countries have a good National Health Care system that actually works (which is what I'd like the US to have), while other countries have a health care system that's seriously under funded and under manned and aren't working (no one should suffer this). I don't believe anyone should have to sit at home suffering from a physical illness due to a lack of medical insurance that's too expensive to obtain, or suffer in a hospital that's freely provided but inadequate to the point of harm.

Now if I was a dictator, I'd eliminate the lack of harems by starting my own.

[Bernie]

Duncan,

Oh. Well. If we're not discussing BENEVOLENT dictatorships, then there are a couple others things I'd do before eliminating tenure.

Actually, that might be an interesting thread to start...

[duncanidaho]

(08-22-2008 06:55 PM)Bernie Wrote:  

Duncan,

Oh. Well. If we're not discussing BENEVOLENT dictatorships, then there are a couple others things I'd do before eliminating tenure.

Actually, that might be an interesting thread to start...

That'd be an interesting thread to start indeed.

[Trotter]

I know a girl that's graduating from ASU with a degree in print making. She's always been the type where she had shit handed to her so obviously she didn't take school seriously. I predict she'll end up marrying some guy for the money and support.

[duncanidaho]

(08-25-2008 03:06 AM)Trotter Wrote:  

I know a girl that's graduating from ASU with a degree in print making. She's always been the type where she had shit handed to her so obviously she didn't take school seriously. I predict she'll end up marrying some guy for the money and support.

This girl you've mentioned, would you tap it

[Trotter]

The short answer is hell yeah.

The long answer is she's my current gf best friend so...

[duncanidaho]

(08-25-2008 02:57 PM)Trotter Wrote:  

The short answer is hell yeah.
The long answer is she's my current gf best friend so...

Then I'll keep it on the down low.

[Chick]

(08-22-2008 04:38 PM)duncanidaho Wrote:  

Bernie,
You have my empathy and condolences on the pain you and your brother went thru. I lived in the UK for 4 years when I was in the military, and a good friend of mine had to wait a year before having knee surgery, so I understand what you mean by National Healthcare having its negative factors. When I'm wishing for National Healthcare for the US what I'm hoping and wanting is for everyone to have access to good medical attention. Some countries have a good National Health Care system that actually works (which is what I'd like the US to have), while other countries have a health care system that's seriously under funded and under manned and aren't working (no one should suffer this). I don't believe anyone should have to sit at home suffering from a physical illness due to a lack of medical insurance that's too expensive to obtain, or suffer in a hospital that's freely provided but inadequate to the point of harm.

Now if I was a dictator, I'd eliminate the lack of harems by starting my own.

Sorry, unrelated post but I just noticed you were in the British military. Army? what trade?
Im a combat engineer here in Canada.

[Lovechild]

(08-21-2008 09:23 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Correct, the university does not care about you and your future success, public and private. Just like a corporation, it's there to serve the executives first, shareholders second (i guess not in this case)... But like george carlin said, the owners of this country don't want a well-educated populace.

Our taxes go for wars and shitty public schools.

So Fucking True!

I mean, what the hell is happening to america man?
All the bureaucratic bullshit is draining this country into the gutter!

[Demitrios]

(12-18-2008 03:41 AM)Lovechild Wrote:  

(08-21-2008 09:23 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Correct, the university does not care about you and your future success, public and private. Just like a corporation, it's there to serve the executives first, shareholders second (i guess not in this case)... But like george carlin said, the owners of this country don't want a well-educated populace.

Our taxes go for wars and shitty public schools.

So Fucking True!

I mean, what the hell is happening to america man?
All the bureaucratic bullshit is draining this country into the gutter!

Not to mention all the lame ass politicians worrying about how fast they can stuff money into their pockets while covering up the damage they do to norml people. I disagree with some of the negativity about "colleges" being the bane of young adults its the investment they CHOOSE(their major)in college, yes its true that the ideas that are instilled into some people(following their ambitions) are exploited by higher educational facilities, but isnt that the glory of living in a democratic republic being able to screw yourself over while capitalistic assholes watch you and do nothing because their getting paid. Maybe we should rethink the values that we have been taught.

[RBerkley]

College is not only a rip-off these days, but it's a feminist dictatorship where men are treated with suspicion, like how non-white men were treated during Jim Crow.

College these days is all about feminist indoctrination while the stereotype of frat parties are demonized since Duke Lacrosse in 2006 and Mattress Girl in 2014.

Roosh graduated at a time when it wasn't that bad. There weren't that many Chanty Binxes & ugly women infesting the campuses like now. The only best way to avoid that feminist plague on many 1st world campuses is to enroll in a trade school or learn an apprentice job.

[dicknixon72]

In the United States, college is a way to emancipate one's self from the dreaded 'living at home.' A combination of deteriorating traditional family values and the general ineptitude and apathy of parents in actually fostering development and raising their own children creates this wholly unnecessary need to get the fuck out of the house the minute you turn 18 years of age.

Instead of being a parent for a mere microsecond longer, parents are more than happy to immediately pack up their child in a $2500 Civic and send them hundreds of miles away so that the educational bureaucratic/industrial complex may continue to raise their children for them.

The product of which, more often than not, is four years of continued indoctrination to replace free thought, a generalized degree in a field already overcrowded with near-identical graduates with zero experience all willing to work for nearly free or completely free (internships) to others' financial benefit, and a debt load in the double if not triple-digits and little else to show for it.

A trade school or well-sorted community/junior college is the 'efficient' tertiary educational choice - tailored around what they can offer you, affordably-priced with flexible hours, a de-emphasis on the grandiose facilities and trappings of the big schools, and more than likely staffed by faculty and professors that not only work/worked in the field they teach, but have lived in the immediate metro area, meaning actual networking opportunities.

That's a personal alternative.

In the bigger picture, a larger shift needs to occur where structure is brought back to families and children are welcome to stay at home (within reason) until they are actually capable of being adults, rather than spending 4-6 years on-campus and returning to live in their old room but now with $80k in accumulated student debt and ZERO marketable skills.

[Merenguero]

^^^
What about the connections you make in college? Do you think a person who goes to an Ivy League school or USC has the potential to make better connections than a person who goes to a community college or trade school? Can the connections you make at some colleges cause college to more than pay for itself? I have a specific example of which I have first-hand knowledge, but definitely can't post it. Something related to the current president which was referenced in a G Manifesto post about hazing.

[dicknixon72]

(02-19-2017 04:12 AM)Merenguero Wrote:  

^^^
What about the connections you make in college? Do you think a person who goes to an Ivy League school or USC has the potential to make better connections than a person who goes to a community college or trade school? Can the connections you make at some colleges cause college to more than pay for itself? I have a specific example of which I have first-hand knowledge, but definitely can't post it. Something related to the current president which was referenced in a G Manifesto post about hazing.

The majority of us have/will not attend an Ivy League school and of those who do, a small number will pursue a degree where connections can be made.

The point is to tailor your post-secondary education to you and your goals, not to treat it like the next thing you are required to do, lest you become a failure.

If your goal is to become a great attorney or an MD or an astronomical researcher and you have the requisite aptitude to do it and have the ability to attend the best school for _____ field in your area, by all means.

But don't shrug and commit yourself to an expensive university program if you're not sure what you even have in mind. I have many former HS classmates who have nice 4-year MBAs and came back home to mom and dad and work at Applebees again.

[Merenguero]

^^^
I mostly agree with that. Many, many educated people aren't functional. Law school produces tons of those types and the number is ever increasing. I went to law school surrounded by those types. You can partially blame the job market for that, but it obviously isn't the who problem. Some educated people would not be productive regardless of how the job market is and some people who never went to college would be successful even in a horrible job market.

[Bluto]

While the concept of trade schools is a wise decision for most people, it is considered to be low brow and thus undesirable to most people. Far too many young people would rather work at a coffee shop writing Karl Marx quotes on coffee cups to bankers than know how to fix an AC unit. Parents are a big problem when it comes to this decision, if not the biggest. As usual Fight Club rings true:

From personal experience, even with a moderately desirable degree it is still hard to get ahead, and most likely you will have to live in cubicle world for the rest of your life. My experience with college is that like most things in life they are not as advertised.

[kavi]

I think there are better ways to educate people.

Maybe we should a set up a degree course in RedPillology. Men only students can learn basic fitness, sports, some trades to a basic standard, a little programming, a language, some writing, a little history etc. Would be a great place to network lol.

On a serious note, this is just a symptom of the West's consumption culture, give me an education, give me a job, people always looking to the state and large institutions to direct them. Those institutions have become too large, beurocratic and ideological to be effective now.

[eradicator]

Eh, it isn't so bad if you go to community college for 2 years, get your grades up really high, and then switch to a four year school with the aid of grants from your good grades in high school and college. (Even better if you can get a degree in a field you enjoy and can make money in, STEM or otherwise)

Trade school is a great option as well.