[Satoshi]

Anyone for any thoughts on the differences between 48 laws of power and how ta make friends and influence people? The books are in my eyes opposites of each other.

[EDantes]

(04-08-2016 03:28 PM)Satoshi Wrote:  

Anyone for any thoughts on the differences between 48 laws of power and how ta make friends and influence people? The books are in my eyes opposites of each other.

Haven't read the 48 Laws of Power in full, I believe it centers more on persuasion techniques.

The main jist of How to Win Friends and Influence people centered on the idea of having a positive mindset and choosing to be interested in other people.

I think the 48 Laws of Power likely has some validity when it comes to dealing with the general public or managing a group of subordinates; when it comes to forming relationships and connections with people who can help you get where you want in life though I think books like Dale Carnegie's are probably more helpful since it focuses on a bigger picture, rather than just "a list" of techniques to memorize.

[Sir Antonio Jerkoff]

Hahaha. Very true. In a way, this thread is an exemplification of the 48 laws of power.

Observe the ways:

You, Phoenix, gave them the harsh truth but they didn't like it; the other person (Paracelus) that gave them the emotional junkfood that they want, what do they do? They flood towards him and reward him. Hmm.... it makes you wonder, which book did i read that before?!? Oh yeah! I know! 48 laws of power!

I believe this is Law 32: Play to people’s fantasies
· The truth is unpleasant, avoid it
· People that manufacture romance are like oases in the desert

This also brings into focus, the sharp contrast between a player who plays on girls emotion; and the solid dependable guy, who tries to appeal to a girl's logic. Who always win? We all know the answer to that.

One thing i have done in reading the 48 laws is to sharpen my senses, to detect the display and execution of the subtleties of 48 laws in real time. The funny thing is that Paracelsus, while (inadvertently)utilizing the 48laws against you(phoenix), is claiming innocence and lack of guile on his part. The ironies! Robert Green talks about people that exhibit Paracelsus behavior in the introductory part of the 48 laws of power. Nobody is genuinely innocent. And people that makes a great show of their innocence are generally the least innocent of all. How do determine this? Simply by looking at the bottomline, the end results of their action(regardless of whatever their claimed intentions might be.) This is especially true, when dealing with women. So it makes sense that they will gravitate towards Paracelus emotional junkfood over Phoenix sober rationalism.

One other thing that caught my eye was the complaint here, that Robert Greene's life is not Donald Trump or whatever. That he was a nobody until he met this person, Joost Elffers, and successfully pitches the 48 laws to him. Green then wrote the 48 laws of power and follow that act with writing "mastery", "art of seduction", "33 strategies of war", basically, milking it for all its worth. I must confess that i am somehow puzzled by a bunch of red pill men, negative attitude towards this kind of hustle. In my view, this fact of Robert Greene's life is a solid proof of 48 laws of power. In that he basically recreates himself. Law 25: Re-create yourself. He didn't even stop there, Robert Greene found a potentially profitable source(Joost Elfers) and proceed to milk it for all its worth. In fact, to quote from his 48 Laws of power, take a look at Law 23: Concentrate your forces
· Intensity defeats extensity every time
· Find a fat cow that’ll give you milk for a long time

I guess in this case, the fat cow is Joost Elfers/realistic motivational books. Robert Greene struck paydirt and milk that for all its worth. Intensity defeats extensity every time. Not everybody that follows 48 laws will become Donald Trump-- that will be unrealistic-- we all have different levels of innate talent and opportunities in life. The important thing is to maximize your options, which Robert Green did. So, what is the problem then?

Another complaint on this thread is that Robert Green uses hyperbole and oversimplification. This argument bewilders me. How else is he going to explain human interactions without hyperboles and oversimplification?

Take mathematics for example. The physical world is a very complex place, and the math that describes it is very complicated. But to learn and internalize math, you start with very elementary "1 + 1 = 2" , that is, "addition", "subtraction", "multiplication" and "division". That is gross oversimplification of math, but at the same time, you don't start with Hodge Conjecture, or De Rham Cohomology, or Seifert–van Kampen theorem. Why would a book on human interactions, a subject that is even more complicated than mathematics, not start from oversimplification?

--SAJ

(04-06-2016 12:11 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Very amusing that in spite of Paracelsus being unable to defend his position, it got highly liked, and he got triple-repped simply for having it. And no-one who liked and repped for it was willing or able to defend it themselves. Very laughable. I hate this to sound salty, but it's just so weak. "We really like what he said, and the fact it's false is irrelevant". I didn't expect to see that here. If we're going to be rewarded for conjuring up some fanciful but indefensible position, just because it comforts us, it is going to encourage more of such farce. Any of you who liked that post or repped on it are welcome to provide what he could not: an explanation as to any laws in the book actually being false in the real world.

And to be clear, I don't care less about the book itself, just this weak unbecoming of a man attitude of the truth doesn't matter, and we should support pleasant fictions in place. Clear cut "blue pill".

Brb, penning my "Devil's advocate: Australian girls are actually misunderstood, highly feminine and intelligent waif-like creatures who are unfairly criticized".

[dispenser]

Why does RG's job history matter?

If someone has a good recipe for a traditional meal, do you ask for his Cordon Bleu certification?

[Paracelsus]

(04-09-2016 04:57 PM)dispenser Wrote:  

Why does RG's job history matter?

If someone has a good recipe for a traditional meal, do you ask for his Cordon Bleu certification?

(a) It's questionable whether it's a good recipe.
(b) By Greene's own account, it's not a traditional meal.

[EDantes]

(04-09-2016 02:05 PM)Sir Antonio Jerkoff Wrote:  

Hahaha. Very true. In a way, this thread is an exemplification of the 48 laws of power.

Observe the ways:

You, Phoenix, gave them the harsh truth but they didn't like it; the other person (Paracelus) that gave them the emotional junkfood that they want, what do they do? They flood towards him and reward him. Hmm.... it makes you wonder, which book did i read that before?!? Oh yeah! I know! 48 laws of power!

On one hand yeah, but on the other hand people who want a cynical take on life do the same thing.

You see this a lot with the so called "nice guys" who say stuff like "you can't get a hot girl unless you're rich", and refuse to listen if you try to give them advice on game.

My take is that the 48 Laws has some use, but that having a paranoid mindset on a regular basis, and assuming that everyone else would stick a knife in your back the first chance they get if they could make money from it isn't a healthy way of looking at life.

(Personal experience is also when I had a more opportunist mindset I tended to come across as creepier when making moves on girls; when I had a more happy-go-lucky mindset I got more attention from girls).

That's far different from saying that people should just "put blinders" on and pretend that "no one around them every does anything mean" just because it feels good.

Problem though is that pessimism is often associated with "realism", therefore the notion is that anyone who isn't completely pessimistic must just be living in the clouds; but this isn't always the case in my opinion.

[Sir Antonio Jerkoff]

Reading some of these response, people seems to think, or perhaps, really wants to believe there is really a choice in this matter. THERE IS NO CHOICE. There is no escape. None to be had. Let that harsh, brutal reality sinks in.

It is not a game you can opt out of. As long as you are a human being interacting with another human being, you are locked in different levels of power games. Regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not. The only choice that remains is if you want to consciously acknowledge it or not.

I guess it depends on individual psychology. Regardless of how unpleasant something is, i prefer to know it, if it is the truth. I feel a sense of certainty, and a weird, strange peacefulness and serenity from having that firmer foundation. My mind will torture itself to death if i know i dwell on delusions.

That is just me. I guess that is why i easily gravitates towards the redpill, science and numbers, etc. I like that granite foundation, regardless of how hard or uncomfortable.

--SAJ

[EDantes]

(04-10-2016 06:46 PM)Sir Antonio Jerkoff Wrote:  

Reading some of these response, people seems to think, or perhaps, really wants to believe there is really a choice in this matter. THERE IS NO CHOICE. There is no escape. None to be had. Let that harsh, brutal reality sinks in.

It is not a game you can opt out of. As long as you are a human being interacting with another human being, you are locked in different levels of power games. Regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not. The only choice that remains is if you want to consciously acknowledge it or not.

I guess it depends on individual psychology. Regardless of how unpleasant something is, i prefer to know it, if it is the truth. I feel a sense of certainty, and a weird, strange peacefulness and serenity from having that firmer foundation. My mind will torture itself to death if i know i dwell on delusions.

That is just me. I guess that is why i easily gravitates towards the redpill, science and numbers, etc. I like that granite foundation, regardless of how hard or uncomfortable.

--SAJ

Oh I'm not arguing that power dynamics play a role in interactions.

Rather the idea that being obsessed with power "just for the sake of power" or having a strictly mercenary attitude toward any endeavor doesn't accurately describe the way that many successful individuals think.

For example I'm not honestly aware of many hugely successful individuals (whether celebrities, businessmen, etc) who simply did what they did because "wanted to get rich", they had some deeper love or sense of purpose in what they did.

Honestly it's not worth arguing over though without reading some philosophy; unfortunately the atheist view that reduces everything to simple "survival" is popular today since it claims to be based on "science",

But once you read some deeper philosophy you'll see the view is actually not "science", just an atheistic philosophy which has been around even before the theory of evolution was discovered (the view of human as "strictly an animal" for example was proposed by the Marquis de Sade back in the 18th century).

[Sir Antonio Jerkoff]

I think you are misunderstanding this. The 48 laws of power is a vehicle, an auxiliary to assist you in your endeavors and passions. The way i internalize and see this is clearly different from you.

We can have two Athlete of this same talent, etc. but the one that utilize the 48 laws will fare much better than the athlete that doesn't. It doesn't mean that because Athlete #1 uses the 48 laws in his dealings with regards to his athletic career, therefore, he doesn't love football like Athlete #2 does. It just means that Athlete #1 is more socially aware and savvy.

A good example is from the 48 laws itself, talking about the contrast between Edison vs Tesla. They both clearly love science. Edison employs the 48 laws in dealing with human relations that touch on his scientific work; Tesla didn't and died in poverty with his ideas stolen. Law 7:

Two people may both love/lust after women with the same intensity. The person #A that employs Game in his dealing with women will get laid more, will get more genuine love from women; than the buy-flowers-and-write-love letters at first sight person #B. So because person #A uses Game, he doesn't lust/love after women as much as person #B? That is ridiculous.

You think all those successful, highly talented people didn't play power games to get their talent recognized? Of course, they did. Otherwise they will die in obscurity. They are a lot of talented musician nobody hears about, who died in obscurity, simply because they didn't know how to play power games. Or because they didn't have somebody that cares about them, play power games on their behalf.

Law 29: Plan all the way to the end.

Your other criticism is that this whole concept is "atheism", "materialistic", it is in vogue, and this discussion can only be had with a deeper analysis of philosophy.

My answer is a resounding "NO". This is not about Leibnitz monadism or Jeremy Bentham/John Stuart Mill's utilitarianism or even August Comte's Positivism. It is about what works in the real world. There is no deeper issue of philosophical inquiry here. It doesn't matter if it is cool or not cool. It doesnt matter if it is SJW approves or Donald Trump doesnt. It doesn't matter. All that matter is that this approach yields results. It is a vehicle onto which you anchor your talents, passions and ambitions.

--SAJ

[Speculation]

The book is essentially a 'How to' guide to Machiavellianism. It is probably one of the most extensive works of its type that is widely available, but I'm sure that it doesn't completely cover the spectrum of manipulative behaviour. Some of the laws also seem not to be a 'perfect fit' for explaining certain manipulations.

To this end, using it as a shield against manipulative behaviour is hit and miss. If you are only using these laws as a lens you suffer the downsides of not trusting others while only receiving partial protection against the games of others.

This may or may not be a good trade off to you, depending on how ruthless the environment you're operating in is, the expected consequences of failing to spot a law based manipulation, your own mental and emotional health and how accurate and universal you believe the laws to be.

[Ethan Hunt]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmvhCWv...qljh5cCm8A

I found this channel which has all the 48 laws of power read out in a with illustrations. All the laws are much more condensed down to fit in a small video but the amount of work and effort involved is really very impressive.

Here's an example for one of the videos.

[Baltimore Bachelor]

For those of you who have read the 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene, I want to share with you an article written by Greene that he wrote a while back for Men's Health Magazine called "The 5 Laws of Power I Learned While Writing the Book" Enjoy!


1. Don't Trust Anyone but Yourself
It's not that everyone is out to screw you (though many people are); it's that some people are simply incompetent. Always assume that they're going to make the kinds of mistakes that you would never make.

2. Seize Your Opportunities
When genuine opportunity, or when you meet someone who can help further your goals, don't act coy. Do everything you can to seize the chance. You may only get one or two in your life.

3. Don't Listen to Everyone
If you listen to every person who offers advice, you'll become confused about your own ideas. If you know what you're doing, go with it.

4. Alternate between Lion and Lamb
Develop a pattern of arbitrarily getting angry. Three out of four times you can be a nice guy, but the fourth time you need to act tough. Otherwise, people will run over you.

5. Be Prepared for Envy
Envy accompanies success. If a friend is envious, deflect it with humility. If it's an enemy, rub your triumph in his face.
~~~~~~~~
By Robert Greene

[Bluto]

I have read through part of "The Art of Seduction" so far. What I get from it is more of a primer on how to run long-term game and advanced game. I would recommend new commers to focus on what Roosh, Neal Straus, or Mystery has written first. It seems to me that Robert Green's book will keep a girl in your bed, but you need to get her there first and that is where Roosh comes in. If there is someone better for advanced game and the long game then I am all ears.

[Satoshi]

^^ Also try Models by Mark Manson.

[Phoenix]

(04-22-2016 12:16 PM)Baltimore Bachelor Wrote:  

4. Alternate between Lion and Lamb
Develop a pattern of arbitrarily getting angry. Three out of four times you can be a nice guy, but the fourth time you need to act tough. Otherwise, people will run over you.

This is a great one. Cunts tend to mistake your desire for calm and rational interaction as evidence of weakness they can exploit. Even the most stoic of men should occasionally go ape shit just to remind the cunts otherwise.

[EDantes]

If you guys like Robert Greene I'd recommend checking out a book called "The Art of Worldy Wisdom".

I have it on my reading list and heard it's potentially better - the Greene books seem worth a read though as others have mentioned, I get the impression that this was less of his personal experience, and that he was essentially more of a "journalist" who simply read the writings of historical figures and aggregated them into a book.

[Lizard King]

(04-14-2016 02:06 AM)Speculation Wrote:  

The book is essentially a 'How to' guide to Machiavellianism. It is probably one of the most extensive works of its type that is widely available, but I'm sure that it doesn't completely cover the spectrum of manipulative behaviour. Some of the laws also seem not to be a 'perfect fit' for explaining certain manipulations.

To this end, using it as a shield against manipulative behaviour is hit and miss. If you are only using these laws as a lens you suffer the downsides of not trusting others while only receiving partial protection against the games of others.

This may or may not be a good trade off to you, depending on how ruthless the environment you're operating in is, the expected consequences of failing to spot a law based manipulation, your own mental and emotional health and how accurate and universal you believe the laws to be.

48 Laws of Power is The Prince for the late 20th Century and early 21st audience.

It's also a lot easier to read!

[rkIE]

This book inspired me to listen to The 50th Law again, and after listening to it I finally went ahead and bought a copy. I find this book more actionable and focused on the nuts and bolts of achievement than his other books. Common themes in the book include the importance of self-reliance and making yourself indispensable, why fearless and bold action are essential for success, and common pitfalls of people who have already achieved a lot.

It's also got some great stories to back up the points he made - it's a lot shorter than his other books, so I feel like the stories were more precisely selected and therefore really interesting and relevant. All of his books have many great historical examples, of course - research and quality selection of quotes and stories are one of Robert Greene's strong suits.

I'd recommend anyone who hasn't read The 50th Law to go ahead and take a glance at it.

By the way, Audible has a 2-for-1 Credit sale going on right now which includes The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction. With a free trial, that makes it very cost effective way of getting some RG audiobooks.

[Max Henrich]

Not 100% sure about Greene. On the one hand, at least his books have many nice anecdotes which can help people to discover better thinkers. OTOH, why didn't he use his knowledge to become a senator or governor at least?

BTW: His books are the most popular ones in American prisons. Think about that.