[CH-Toronto]

Well, this could quite possibly be the worst and scariest thing I've read about in a while. I keep thinking this can't be real but.... it is? It is? Something is completely off here. Is this tipping point of living in a dystopian society?

I just watched this video for the first time today:

I had not heard of "Sesame Credits" so I did some more digging.

https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/bl...-opinions/

http://qz.com/519737/all-chinese-citizen...ine-sucks/

I really have no idea what the hell this is and I'm surprised it hasn't been talked about much on the forum. Will RVFers from China please clarify what the hell this is?

[Dr. Howard]

Brave New World mother fuckers! This system is like an SJWs wet dream. We would all get -1000 points for being RVF members.

[aeroektar]

Well that's terrifying.

All the more reason for Americans to defend the 1st and 2nd Amendment like they're defending their life, because that's essentially the reality.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

The video mentions "Big Brother," but that's from "1984," where the populace was controlled through fear. This is more like "Brave New World," where they controlled people with pleasure.

That said, this reminded me a bit of the finale of "Seinfeld," where the four main characters were jailed for not following an imaginary "Good Samaritan Law," which required citizens to help or assist others they see in danger. What was once a dystopian fantasy is now becoming reality.

Better hope Hillary doesn't get elected because I bet her minions would love to implement this.

[The Beast1]

No "system" or game is perfect. Right off the bat, if I lived in China and wanted to subvert this game i'd just post BS supporting the government followed by torrenting digital versions of manga from Japan through a VPN, and just simply make myself look like a model citizen while simultaneously getting all of my real news elsewhere.

Just do barely enough for the stupid game to think you're doing something. The suckers who take it seriously will "play" the game while everyone else will bullshit their way so they get better prizes.

[Patriarch]

(12-18-2015 05:52 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

No "system" or game is perfect. Right off the bat, if I lived in China and wanted to subvert this game i'd just post BS supporting the government followed by torrenting digital versions of manga from Japan through a VPN, and just simply make myself look like a model citizen while simultaneously getting all of my real news elsewhere.

Just do barely enough for the stupid game to think you're doing something. The suckers who take it seriously will "play" the game while everyone else will bullshit their way so they get better prizes.

When I look around me, I have to wonder how many people are suckers and how many people aren't. Odds are far more fall into the first camp. Us and our ways of thinking are outliers.

[whateverfuckit]

(12-18-2015 05:52 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

No "system" or game is perfect. Right off the bat, if I lived in China and wanted to subvert this game i'd just post BS supporting the government followed by torrenting digital versions of manga from Japan through a VPN, and just simply make myself look like a model citizen while simultaneously getting all of my real news elsewhere.

Just do barely enough for the stupid game to think you're doing something. The suckers who take it seriously will "play" the game while everyone else will bullshit their way so they get better prizes.

You're missing the point....

They track purchases as well. And the point isn't to weed out the unfaithful, it's to OSTRACIZE them socially.

People will become so afraid of losing "points" they will not associate with you at all, even if your "score" is good in the virtual world. This virtual crap WILL have a real-world counterpart, I guarantee it. As soon as the masses accept this, it will happen.

[The Beast1]

(12-19-2015 06:14 AM)whateverfuckit Wrote:  

(12-18-2015 05:52 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

No "system" or game is perfect. Right off the bat, if I lived in China and wanted to subvert this game i'd just post BS supporting the government followed by torrenting digital versions of manga from Japan through a VPN, and just simply make myself look like a model citizen while simultaneously getting all of my real news elsewhere.

Just do barely enough for the stupid game to think you're doing something. The suckers who take it seriously will "play" the game while everyone else will bullshit their way so they get better prizes.

You're missing the point....

They track purchases as well. And the point isn't to weed out the unfaithful, it's to OSTRACIZE them socially.

People will become so afraid of losing "points" they will not associate with you at all, even if your "score" is good in the virtual world. This virtual crap WILL have a real-world counterpart, I guarantee it. As soon as the masses accept this, it will happen.

What point is there to miss? This is happening in China. What do you expect?

At least in China I know the regime is out to get me. They're communist with big guns FFS and make no effort to hide it. China has never been free. If this was a thing in America i'd be concerned. But china? Not surprised at all. This is to be expected and this type of behavior will become more common when their economy slows down. They made a bunch of bankers disappear when their market dipped in August. You don't like it? Leave.

The "masses" who will accept this are the chinese masses which to be honest I could care less about. Is this happening elsewhere in the world? It is, but softly. The governments of the west don't care enough and have a soft control through SJW lynchmobs. The solution there is to stay off of social media and enjoy what the narrative deems bad.

But back to China, if you know what items are "bad" then find other ways to get them while making sure you don't purchase said bad items on stores that are tracked.

For illicit items use a store that isn't plugged into the system or better yet use bitcoin.

China will have its soft revolution soon enough. Their communist system is a joke (peasants in the countryside have to pay for education). What loyalty to the party will there be if it doesn't help the peasants?

[whateverfuckit]

(12-19-2015 07:20 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

(12-19-2015 06:14 AM)whateverfuckit Wrote:  

(12-18-2015 05:52 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

No "system" or game is perfect. Right off the bat, if I lived in China and wanted to subvert this game i'd just post BS supporting the government followed by torrenting digital versions of manga from Japan through a VPN, and just simply make myself look like a model citizen while simultaneously getting all of my real news elsewhere.

Just do barely enough for the stupid game to think you're doing something. The suckers who take it seriously will "play" the game while everyone else will bullshit their way so they get better prizes.

You're missing the point....

They track purchases as well. And the point isn't to weed out the unfaithful, it's to OSTRACIZE them socially.

People will become so afraid of losing "points" they will not associate with you at all, even if your "score" is good in the virtual world. This virtual crap WILL have a real-world counterpart, I guarantee it. As soon as the masses accept this, it will happen.

What point is there to miss? This is happening in China. What do you expect?

At least in China I know the regime is out to get me. They're communist with big guns FFS and make no effort to hide it. China has never been free. If this was a thing in America i'd be concerned. But china? Not surprised at all. This is to be expected and this type of behavior will become more common when their economy slows down. They made a bunch of bankers disappear when their market dipped in August. You don't like it? Leave.

The "masses" who will accept this are the chinese masses which to be honest I could care less about. Is this happening elsewhere in the world? It is, but softly. The governments of the west don't care enough and have a soft control through SJW lynchmobs. The solution there is to stay off of social media and enjoy what the narrative deems bad.

But back to China, if you know what items are "bad" then find other ways to get them while making sure you don't purchase said bad items on stores that are tracked.

For illicit items use a store that isn't plugged into the system or better yet use bitcoin.

China will have its soft revolution soon enough. Their communist system is a joke (peasants in the countryside have to pay for education). What loyalty to the party will there be if it doesn't help the peasants?

While I agree with your points, it's no less disheartening to me.

I guess you're right---China will be China, and really, this was just the next logical step. It's just scary to see a medium that has so many great attributes---videogames, used in such a manipulative and evil manner.

Still, if I had to pick between Credit Sesame and the NSA, I'd probably pick Credit Sesame, TBH. At least they don't track EVERYTHING.

[Samseau]

Yet another reason to support Trump's tariffs against China. The sooner we can end their slave labor system of a pegged currency, the sooner this crazy communist state goes broke and loses power.

[Quintus Curtius]

You shouldn't be surprised at all.

China, and any society coming under the influence of Confucian thinking, has always elevated obedience and compliance as a virtue.

Look at Confucianism, for God's sake! The whole religion is based on obeying authority: your father, your feudal lord, the emperor. Obedience and harmony. Obedience and harmony. That's what it's all about.

And people wonder why China stagnated for 1000 years. Well, this is why!

The values of obedience and conformity do not make for good innovation. They promote a society of mindless, soulless drones. Asian countries have always emphasized this, and now modern technology gives them truly terrifying power to enforce blind conformity.

North Korea is even worse, but there's no need to get into that....

[The Lizard of Oz]

Far be it from me to defend the odious Chicoms, but the fantastical Brave New World claims made in that video appear to be completely false. The Quartz article cited in the OP gives a good overview of this Sesame credit system:

http://qz.com/519737/all-chinese-citizen...ine-sucks/

The facts of the matter:

-- This scoring system is run by Alibaba and Tencent, but there is no direct or obvious involvement by the government.
-- The scoring system does not look into anyone's posts on social media or their content, pro-government or otherwise.
-- It is not true that everyone can see everyone else's scores. Other people's scores are only available by permission.
-- It is true that the Chinese government has outlined (in a long and confusing memorandum, as Commie documents tend to be) the idea of creating a credit system that will take "good citizenship" into account. But that is NOT what this Sesame credit system is. They built a website for Credit China (the official credit system, which is completely distinct from this one) but so far it's empty and does not contain a single record.
-- In short, this scoring system seems to be a glorified loyalty program by a major online shopping platform, not some dystopian Brave New World fantasy. What seems to have happened is that someone confused the half-baked ideas outlined in the Chicom memo with the actual and unrelated system built by Alibaba and Tencent.

The gamer geek who very annoyingly voiced this video does not appear to have done even a minimal amount of due diligence to verify if any of the claims made in it had anything to do with reality. Like so often happens, he was taken by a geek idea -- that "positive reinforcement" is a great system of mind control and much more effective than fear -- and he just ran with the idea.

The reality, as opposed to dystopian nerd fantasies, is that China remains a thug state run by the Chicoms, and they use plain old-fashioned fear effectively enough to stifle explicit opposition; but no one knows how long they can keep such an enormous, complex, and chaotic country under control. Whatever the case, online shopping loyalty programs are not going to be the sinister key that unlocks the door to wholesale mind control and ushers in the Brave New World.

[WanderingSoul]

Those in favor of gun control are so fucking stupid and short sighted I don't understand how they can function in life.

[Going strong]

I watched this interesting video and thought, "ok, but are we really better off in the West?".

I mean, seeing this video, it seems the Chinese will "ostracize" you and screw your social life, if you are not patriotic enough, don't buy locally-made products, criticize the current doxa, are "a bad, un-PC citizen" etc...

But... Is it fundamentally different in the West? Try saying un-politically correct things in the West on social media: you'll be hunted and ostracized in the same manner. Go against the Western government-enforced doxa, write on your facebook things like, for example: "too many single-men, illegal migrants come into our countries", "black lives matter is a racialist, intolerant organization", and just wait to see what happens to your social or professional life! Western SJWs will denounce you and fuck your on-line profiles, just the same...

So I'd say: the Chinese control and punishment (on-line) strategy is probably more organized, methodical than in the West, but at the end of the day, the West do the exact same stuff against people who go against the current.

And by the way, the Chinese doxa is more conservative and patriotic than the Western one, so... which system is protecting its own future? and which one leads to its own destruction?

[Mage]

This is a bad invention for sure but it has a huge flaw that I hope will lead to its undoing after some time period.

The flaw is - there probably will be backslash where many various freethinker groups will start valueing people by the opposite - how low your score is. Sort of like general asian society fear tatoos, but Yakuza value you, based on tatoos you have and give you tatoos based on your value.

This system will polarize society, low score people will band together and from groups, they will have a very clear critiera who is in their side. Various antigovernment groups will have easier time then ever to unite together and it will be easy for people to recognize who is on which side. It could lead to a very divided society, civil war even.

[Quintus Curtius]

(12-19-2015 01:11 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

Far be it from me to defend the odious Chicoms, but the fantastical Brave New World claims made in that video appear to be completely false. The Quartz article cited in the OP gives a good overview of this Sesame credit system:

http://qz.com/519737/all-chinese-citizen...ine-sucks/

The facts of the matter:

-- This scoring system is run by Alibaba and Tencent, but there is no direct or obvious involvement by the government.
-- The scoring system does not look into anyone's posts on social media or their content, pro-government or otherwise.
-- It is not true that everyone can see everyone else's scores. Other people's scores are only available by permission.
-- It is true that the Chinese government has outlined (in a long and confusing memorandum, as Commie documents tend to be) the idea of creating a credit system that will take "good citizenship" into account. But that is NOT what this Sesame credit system is. They built a website for Credit China (the official credit system, which is completely distinct from this one) but so far it's empty and does not contain a single record.
-- In short, this scoring system seems to be a glorified loyalty program by a major online shopping platform, not some dystopian Brave New World fantasy. What seems to have happened is that someone confused the half-baked ideas outlined in the Chicom memo with the actual and unrelated system built by Alibaba and Tencent.

The gamer geek who very annoyingly voiced this video does not appear to have done even a minimal amount of due diligence to verify if any of the claims made in it had anything to do with reality. Like so often happens, he was taken by a geek idea -- that "positive reinforcement" is a great system of mind control and much more effective than fear -- and he just ran with the idea.

The reality, as opposed to dystopian nerd fantasies, is that China remains a thug state run by the Chicoms, and they use plain old-fashioned fear effectively enough to stifle explicit opposition; but no one knows how long they can keep such an enormous, complex, and chaotic country under control. Whatever the case, online shopping loyalty programs are not going to be the sinister key that unlocks the door to wholesale mind control and ushers in the Brave New World.

Lizard,

It looks like this "Sesame Credit" system is real, man. This is no fantasy. At least according to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186

[The Lizard of Oz]

QC, I did not say the system wasn't real, just that it doesn't do all the things the video said it did. It is not true that the system incorporates social media posts, for example. To quote the BBC article you cited:

Quote:

Sesame Credit tracks "financial and consumption activities of our users, and materials published on social media platforms do not affect our users' personal Sesame Credit score," explained spokeswoman Miranda Shek.

Further, it's not true that everyone's score is visible to everyone else without their permission. It's not true that having friends with lower scores negatively affects your score. And so on. In short, everything in that BBC article just confirms what I posted above.

As far as the government goes, as I noted in my post they have issued a lengthy memorandum outlining their plans for a government social credit system by 2020. To quote that BBC article again:

Quote:

The Chinese authorities are watching the pilot process very carefully. The government system won't be exactly the same as the private systems, but government officials are certainly taking cues from the algorithms developed under the private projects.

A lengthy planning document from China's elite State Council explains that social credit will "forge a public opinion environment that trust-keeping is glorious", warning that the "new system will reward those who report acts of breach of trust".

Details on the inner workings of the system are vague, though it is clear that each citizen and Chinese organisation will be rated. A long list of people in certain professions will face particular scrutiny, including teachers, accountants, journalists and medical doctors. The special list even includes veterinarians and tour guides.

A national database will merge a wide variety of information on every citizen, assessing whether taxes and traffic tickets have been paid, whether academic degrees have been rightly earned and even, it seems, whether females have been instructed to take birth control.

In other words, the supposed government system is still something that exists only in theory and it's not the same as this Sesame Credit. Whether it will ever be put in practice I have no idea; maybe it will, maybe it won't. Commies come up with all sorts of 5 year plans but making them actually work is not always so easy.

The point of my post is that the video was just some gamer dude getting carried away with the geek dystopian fantasies of how "positive reinforcement" will be a new system of mind control that is unthinkably more sinister than fear and repression. But the truth remains that to the extent the Chicoms will continue to hold on to power, it will basically be through the continuation of old-fashioned fear and repression, just as it's always been.

[Mekorig]

If (and i remark the IF) this kind of system gets implemented, it would be very weak, and easy to target. Wonder what kind of panic and mayhem you can cause by hacking it and setting the score to 0 in a big number of people?

[Samseau]

(12-19-2015 04:08 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  

If (and i remark the IF) this kind of system gets implemented, it would be very weak, and easy to target. Wonder what kind of panic and mayhem you can cause by hacking it and setting the score to 0 in a big number of people?

Or even better, hack someone's account and make lots of bad messages on the net so their score is lowered. Post the comments deep on the web on places where the original user is unaware of what is being posted to his account. His reputation is ruined and he's a mark for the government.

This system is very easy to assassinate someone's character with.

[Going strong]

(12-19-2015 04:07 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

A national database will merge a wide variety of information on every citizen, assessing whether taxes and traffic tickets have been paid, whether academic degrees have been rightly earned and even, it seems, whether females have been instructed to take birth control.

"whether academic degrees have been rightly earned": an excellent idea actually!
For example, in France, we have the case of the leader of the current government political party, socialist Cambadelis, who earned his 4-year diploma... in just one year (because he was a syndicated leftist student).

Anyway, my point essentially being: not all State control is bad!

If a State wants to control that people follow the (legitimate) laws and are not traitors to their country, it's fine with me.

Of course, problems arise if and when some State people start going too far in their control of society (like Robespierre did in France, getting carried away in his pursuit of order and prosperity)...

(And that's why States are now limited in their powers by Constitutions: to limit the amount of control they can impose on their citizens)

[Patriarch]

https://www.techinasia.com/china-citizen...-orwellian
https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comm...be/cvu3pch
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comme...it/cvslam4

Scary, but a little more background. The video posted is somewhat inaccurate.

[Architekt]

Quote:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience

[Barbarian_Brad]

(12-18-2015 05:52 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

No "system" or game is perfect. Right off the bat, if I lived in China and wanted to subvert this game i'd just post BS supporting the government followed by torrenting digital versions of manga from Japan through a VPN, and just simply make myself look like a model citizen while simultaneously getting all of my real news elsewhere.

Just do barely enough for the stupid game to think you're doing something. The suckers who take it seriously will "play" the game while everyone else will bullshit their way so they get better prizes.

This was my first thought as well, and then I realized... we already do this in America. If you don't think you do, share an ROK article under your real name on Facebook, and watch you sesame score drop.

[Going strong]

(12-19-2015 10:58 PM)Architekt Wrote:  

Quote:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience

Very interesting debate, Architekt. Now my question is: if a "tyranny" "sincerely exercises for the good of its victims" and in actual fact, does good to its "victims", is it still a "tyranny"?

I mean, if a somewhat authoritarian State does everything right (creating wealth, protecting borders, enforcing patriotism, passing sensible laws, fighting off terrorism), then, would you mind living under its control? I wouldn't. If some "authoritarian" State guarantees people's material and even mental well-being, and people's security, and protects its borders, and fights off inflation, then I would gladly obey it.

[ball dont lie]

The first category takes into account purchases made using Alipay, and looks at purchasing volume, and the price of goods that are purchased. But the content of what one purchases won’t affect one’s score—in other words, your score will go up as long as you buy anything, whether it’s books or sex toys. “It’s basically the frequency that matters, it’s not what you buy that matters,” says an Ant Financial spokeswoman.


**************

This appears to be more or less a credit score, much like every in the USA has. It is not the "real" credit score used by banks, but appears to be something where you buy more stuff, the score goes up.

Non story.