Clouds was one of Aristophanes' comedies that I never read, but in some of my classics courses at University, it was discussed in relation to sophists, and I just now am reading it.
Sophists were a type of teacher who charged for lessons in rhetoric, philosophy, and other subjects. Generally, in the sources from Athens passed down to us, they are derided as being frauds and charlatans, teaching you to cleverly debase anything. That's why the term sophistry today means using logic that sounds correct to prove a false point.
The play centers on a man who has incurred too much debt throughout his life and is thus financially ruined, and wants to seek a way to avoid paying his debtors. He goes to the school of Socrates, here presented as a sophist, who promises to teach him how to argue for unjust causes and get the better of his debtors.
The man turns out to be too stupid for Socrates to teach, but offers his young son for instruction in unjust discourse. When his son arrives, two characters, Just Discourse, and Unjust Discourse, arrive and have a debate in front of him so that he may choose which to take as a tutor.
What struck me about this play is that it very clearly lays out a kind of objectivist vs. subjectivist view of the world. Basically the arguments we have today--where liberals or SJWs claim there is no such thing as objective truth, objective morals, that everything is subjective and that the old ways are certainly wrong--is recreated here almost perfectly.
Some choice excerpts from the debate between Just Discourse and Unjust Discourse:
Amazing that in this time, we see practically the very same sorts of arguments we have today. This in a way gives me hope that, while liars and charlatans are certainly numerous today, that perhaps it has always been this way and at the same time a sensible component of society can continue to exist in contrast to them.
Clouds is a great play, and Aristophanes generally a wonderful author. As with all Greek plays I know, it is short and you can hardly find a better use of a couple of hours than reading one of these. Further, they are available for free on kindle, and on many websites as well such as this:
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/clouds.html
Sophists were a type of teacher who charged for lessons in rhetoric, philosophy, and other subjects. Generally, in the sources from Athens passed down to us, they are derided as being frauds and charlatans, teaching you to cleverly debase anything. That's why the term sophistry today means using logic that sounds correct to prove a false point.
The play centers on a man who has incurred too much debt throughout his life and is thus financially ruined, and wants to seek a way to avoid paying his debtors. He goes to the school of Socrates, here presented as a sophist, who promises to teach him how to argue for unjust causes and get the better of his debtors.
The man turns out to be too stupid for Socrates to teach, but offers his young son for instruction in unjust discourse. When his son arrives, two characters, Just Discourse, and Unjust Discourse, arrive and have a debate in front of him so that he may choose which to take as a tutor.
What struck me about this play is that it very clearly lays out a kind of objectivist vs. subjectivist view of the world. Basically the arguments we have today--where liberals or SJWs claim there is no such thing as objective truth, objective morals, that everything is subjective and that the old ways are certainly wrong--is recreated here almost perfectly.
Some choice excerpts from the debate between Just Discourse and Unjust Discourse:
Quote:Quote:
JUST DISCOURSE
I am going to destroy you mercilessly.
UNJUST DISCOURSE
How pray? Let us see you do it.
JUST DISCOURSE
By saying what is true.
UNJUST DISCOURSE
I shall retort and shall very soon have the better of you. First, maintain that justice has no existence.
JUST DISCOURSE
Has no existence?
UNJUST DISCOURSE
No existence! Why, where is it?
JUST DISCOURSE
With the gods.
UNJUST DISCOURSE
How then, if justice exists, was Zeus not put to death for having put his father in chains?
JUST DISCOURSE
Bah! this is enough to turn my stomach! A basin, quick!
UNJUST DISCOURSE
You are an old driveller and stupid withal.
JUST DISCOURSE
And you a degenerate and shameless fellow.
UNJUST DISCOURSE
Hah! What sweet expressions!
...
UNJUST DISCOURSE
... Furthermore he preaches chastity to them. Both precepts are equally harmful. Have you ever seen chastity of any use to anyone? Answer and try to confute me.
JUST DISCOURSE
To many; for instance, Peleus won a sword thereby.
UNJUST DISCOURSE
A sword! Ah! what a fine present to make him! Poor wretch! Hyperbolus, the lamp-seller, thanks to his villainy, has gained more than....do not know how many talents, but certainly no sword.
JUST DISCOURSE
Peleus owed it to his chastity that he became the husband of Thetis.
UNJUST DISCOURSE
.... who left him in the lurch, for he was not the most ardent; in those nocturnal sports between the sheets, which so please women, he possessed but little merit. Get you gone, you are but an old fool. But you, young man, just consider a little what this temperance means and the delights of which it deprives you-young fellows, women, play, dainty dishes, wine, boisterous laughter. And what is life worth without these? Then, if you happen to commit one of these faults inherent in human weakness, some seduction or adultery, and you are caught in the act, you are lost, if you cannot speak. But follow my teaching and you will be able to satisfy your passions, to dance, to laugh, to blush at nothing. Suppose you are caught in the act of adultery. Then up and tell the husband you are not guilty, and recall to him the example of Zeus, who allowed himself to be conquered by love and by women. Being but a mortal, can you be stronger than a god?
Amazing that in this time, we see practically the very same sorts of arguments we have today. This in a way gives me hope that, while liars and charlatans are certainly numerous today, that perhaps it has always been this way and at the same time a sensible component of society can continue to exist in contrast to them.
Clouds is a great play, and Aristophanes generally a wonderful author. As with all Greek plays I know, it is short and you can hardly find a better use of a couple of hours than reading one of these. Further, they are available for free on kindle, and on many websites as well such as this:
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/clouds.html
