[Pointer]

The policeman has an oddly shaped face. I doubt he scores high with the women. The guys from Instagram however represent what women want nowadays: tall, chiseled jaw, skinny but fit.

[Cobra]

(05-17-2016 01:45 PM)ComebackKid Wrote:  

These are two most popular guys (as far as I know) on Instagram who are solely famous for looks (they aren't actors, athletes, singers, youtube personas etc):





If you check out what hot western sluts on insta follow, there is a good chance they will be following one of these guys. Both have 4-5 mil followers on Insta solely for being attractive to girls:
https://www.instagram.com/nick__bateman/
https://www.instagram.com/marianodivaio/

^ Basically tall guys with good looking faces and lean muscular swimmer type physique. Clearly spend time in the gym and diet, but hardly big/massive.

The idea that massive physique is the most attractive to Western (or any) women doesn't have basis in reality, but that doesn't mean that the guys with massive physiques don't have a payoff for their effort (as long as % of women who like massive physiques >>> % of men who have them). And face>>>body any day. Ceteris paribus I'll bet all day long on skinny guy with great face against muscular guy with ugly face.

You keep looks trolling after I've called you out at least twice.

Same shit again but atleast you're not starting threads like your last major one: thread-53404...pid1276995

You're hoping you will stay under the radar since you're posting within an already degenerate looks thread
In doing so, you're wasting both the forum's time and space. Other than that you have not added an iota of value.

You post random thoughts on these threads either adding no value or hoping no one is noticing. Fortunately I'm more focused on newbie trolls now than ever before and see this shit from a mile.

You are not only on my radar but I will be following you through your every subsequent post to ensure the poison doesn't spread and more newbies don't think it's okay.

I look forward to your next post.

[Travesty]

Here is the real question:

Would the two IG guys have a large increase in followers if they both put on 20lbs of lean muscle evenly distributed or would it go down to a worldwide audience?

We all know if you are a guy with an under 8 face no question bigger is better.

The order of importance for young hot girls is:

1) Face
2) Clear Healthy Skin
3) Good Hair
3b) Style


4) Lean
5) Skin Tone (usually a nice tan)
6) Height





7) Muscle Mass

[Cobra]

(05-16-2016 08:24 PM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  

A2D .. when did you and NASA Test Pilot hang out in Jersey Shore?

[Sandstorm]

Doesn't all this obsession with "being jacked" fly in the face of what game is supposed to be about? Obviously looking good helps a lot (especially with online) but I thought the point of game is not playing into societal norms and is a way to bypass all that programming? Without naming the company, a certain very famous pickup school regularly posts videos of them picking up extremely hot girls and none of them are even close to looking like those two pretty-boys above. In fact, a few of them are badly out of shape, not tall and often wear very shit clothes. Unless all their marketing is complete and utter BS, it proves it's not as important as everyone makes out?

[RichieP]

(05-22-2016 04:31 AM)Sandstorm Wrote:  

Doesn't all this obsession with "being jacked" fly in the face of what game is supposed to be about? Obviously looking good helps a lot (especially with online) but I thought the point of game is not playing into societal norms and is a way to bypass all that programming? Without naming the company, a certain very famous pickup school regularly posts videos of them picking up extremely hot girls and none of them are even close to looking like those two pretty-boys above. In fact, a few of them are badly out of shape, not tall and often wear very shit clothes. Unless all their marketing is complete and utter BS, it proves it's not as important as everyone makes out?

FULLY agree. Game is about maximizing your results with a social and sexual skillset. There's too much focus on physique here which is IMO a relatively minor lever in quality and quantity of chicks. Game gets the girls.

[ElJefe1]

(05-22-2016 04:31 AM)Sandstorm Wrote:  

Doesn't all this obsession with "being jacked" fly in the face of what game is supposed to be about? Obviously looking good helps a lot (especially with online) but I thought the point of game is not playing into societal norms and is a way to bypass all that programming? Without naming the company, a certain very famous pickup school regularly posts videos of them picking up extremely hot girls and none of them are even close to looking like those two pretty-boys above. In fact, a few of them are badly out of shape, not tall and often wear very shit clothes. Unless all their marketing is complete and utter BS, it proves it's not as important as everyone makes out?

I'd say their marketing is utter and complete bullshit, the point is to get people to pay money for their lessons.... So they show a video of them talking to hot girls.... What does that prove? Do they show them banging these hot girls or any real proof they actually made it happen. You can keep wearing these rainbow colored glasses if you want but in my opinion game is also dressing well, working out, not just learning some corney pick up lines or "technique" that you read out of a book or paid someone to teach you. Am I saying its 100% worthless nope I've met people whom can swear by it, but is it this game they learned from these classes or just actually trying? Trial and effort putting in effort??......

[trainwreck]

I'd say being lean gives you an edge with the broadest target group. I play soccer 3x a week and do the gym once or twice a week and I'd say I do pretty ok based on my rather not so tall physique

Being jacked probably gets the stripper and fake tits type of girl wet usually.

[OGNorCal707]

I'm a regular at the gym, but only go 3 times a week, because I have other hobbies, and having an elite level physique isn't necessarily the most important thing to me, as long as I'm fit, in good shape, with some muscle mass. Any how as I scroll through the last couple pages I agree with a lot of what guys are saying about muscles and attraction, especially with American women.

Northern Cali is probably a bit different than SoCal, I think SoCal is kind of like NJ or Miami, where being really jacked is a huge advantage, here in NorCal there are more "alternative" kind of chicks like hippy/festival types, artsy hipsters, etc. with these subsets of chicks being a huge jacked up roid head is probably not going to work in your favor, compared to a super lean long haired yoga type dude, or a skinny jeans, tattoos, and beenie hipster guy.

Anyway I do notice that the chicks at my gym who are really into fitness pretty much are all with huge jacked up muscle bound dudes. Now I am kind of generalizing, but I do live in a small town and notice the hotties and who they are with, with social media and observing night game this becomes even clearer and easier to analyze.

The classically hot former cheer leader, prom queen types who are solid 8+ and especially the ones who are themselves into working out definitely gravitate towards the bigger guys. That said I do kind of wonder about female psychology because aside from being really huge a lot of these guys seem pretty lame and lacking in other desirable qualities.

To illustrate I'll use two examples from my gym, one is a guy who's mid twenties white guy who's dating a solid 8+ blonde chick with an absolutely stacked body. The guy is a fucking absolute beast, he looks like he's about 5 ft. 11 but 250 pounds of muscle. Don't know his exact stats but I regularly see him repping 405 lbs on squats, but anyway the guy is absolutely juiced out to the gills. He's the classic type you'd think of when you think of a person who is a heavy steroid user, his physique is impressive, but it's beyond the point of what is "normal", in other words the dude looks like some kind of cartoon character. Now I'm not trying to hate on the guy, but he crosses the line into looking freakish in my opinion. Also the guy has really horrible acne that is all over his face and back, the dudes skin on is face always looks super red, flakey, and scaly, to me horrible acne skin would be a huge turn off.

The other guy I'm thinking of conversely isn't a super huge jacked dude, but the guy is definitely obsessed with his physique and working out, he's got to be in the gym 6-7 days a week, and if he isn't on roids he's definitely taking all kinds of other supplements. He's definitely big, but supper lean and shredded out to the max. Anyway the reason why I bring him up is the dude is metrosexual as fuck, looks like he shaves his eye brows, always has spikey gelled hair, always has some fake tan, and looks like he probably shaves and waxes his body hair and oils himself up... Sounds gay right? I would see that dude in the gym and always wonder if he was a full blown homosexual or just a super metro dude... Turns out I saw him out at the bar last weekend with a super hot Asian chick and they were making out so I guess that pretty much solves the mystery, I guess he is straight, but just extremely feminine.

Which all leads me to my point of wondering why the fuck the hottest chicks go after these kinds of guys...? Sorry if I sound like a salty hater, that's not my intent, but to analyze where we are with male/female attraction. I'm especially puzzled with the metro dude, I know women like in shape and well groomed men, but I also thought they value masculinity as core tenant of attraction. Personally I'd rather go without pussy or at least less pussy or less hot pussy, if it means I can keep my ball sack and act like a man should, not some metro dude that waxes his body hair, goes to the tanning salon, gets pedicures and does all kind of gay shit. Would much rather be true to my masculine self.

[elcidcampeador]

Asians like feminine-looking men. Just take a look at the Westerners they have on TV over there.

[Rush87]

(05-22-2016 07:11 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Which all leads me to my point of wondering why the fuck the hottest chicks go after these kinds of guys...? Sorry if I sound like a salty hater, that's not my intent, but to analyze where we are with male/female attraction. I'm especially puzzled with the metro dude, I know women like in shape and well groomed men, but I also thought they value masculinity as core tenant of attraction.

It should be relatively obvious. Muscle is the most basic and obvious display of masculinity in a man. A woman will use all sorts of mental gymnastics to rationalise any other short comings he may have…

[RichieP]

I dont think the hottest chicks do go after these guys.

I would guess these girls are not high quality chicks. Every western girl I know who is 8-9 in looks and intelligent, classy etc avoids meathead clowns.

I've never seen a true high quality 9 with such a guy as a BF. The rare occasion I have, the guy is a successful athlete e.g. rugby player.

[Fortis]

(05-22-2016 09:22 PM)elcidcampeador Wrote:  

Asians like feminine-looking men. Just take a look at the Westerners they have on TV over there.

Yes and No. You can get away with being a scrawny, tall guy in China, but I think you can do just fine being jacked. I am FAR from how i want to look physically, but months ago, a girl in china told me "you have the exact physique that most asian guys strive for."

I am thin but muscular, but in america I would be called small.

on the same token, my girlfriend actually likes that I've been gaining weight and becoming more muscular and she actively abhors the scrawny k-pop star look.

I think it's hard to generalize 100% about what asian girls like. In usa, I overwhelmingly see asian chicks with athletic to jacked guys.

In china, most dudes are skinny anyway due to lack of available protein, so girls sort of have to take it or leave it, but I don't think being muscular kills a dude's chances in china. It makes you stand out way more next to those skinny chinese bros.

I know of a westerner here who is like 6'0 215 and doesn't have problems getting laid here despite being pretty large by Chinese standards. Doesn't hurt that he speaks fluent chinese, I bet.

[ElJefe1]

So are we talking about only Meatheads when we say muscle or also lean, fit, guys that clearly work out when we say muscle??

[Rush87]

(05-23-2016 06:56 AM)ElJefe1 Wrote:  

So are we talking about only Meatheads when we say muscle or also lean, fit, guys that clearly work out when we say muscle??

The thread title says muscle. I don't think we need to go into the straw man of saying 'women don't like bodybuilders' or meatheads... A bodybuilder is a .01% physique attainted through years of steroid abuse. No man will naturally get so big that it becomes unattractive to a woman, so there's no point for anyone to even contemplate the notion.

Further, it is relatively pointless to debate over which male attribute is more desirable. For example: "Do women value a face over muscles?"

Asking the question won't change the face anyone has... Adding muscle will make one more attractive whether you have the face of a model or the face of a mutant… I really don't think this topic requires so much mental gymnastics. As a general rule. If something takes hard work and discipline, it will generally improve you as a man.

[zatara]

(05-23-2016 12:00 PM)Rush87 Wrote:  

The thread title says muscle. I don't think we need to go into the straw man of saying 'women don't like bodybuilders' or meatheads... A bodybuilder is a .01% physique attainted through years of steroid abuse. No man will naturally get so big that it becomes unattractive to a woman, so there's no point for anyone to even contemplate the notion.

Further, it is relatively pointless to debate over which male attribute is more desirable. For example: "Do women value a face over muscles?"

Asking the question won't change the face anyone has... Adding muscle will make one more attractive whether you have the face of a model or the face of a mutant… I really don't think this topic requires so much mental gymnastics. As a general rule. If something takes hard work and discipline, it will generally improve you as a man.

I find that both online, and in real life, the only people who engage in this prolonged debate over if women value muscle tend to be skinny guys trying to find an excuse not to workout. Anyone I know whos put on substantial amounts of muscle has found it night and day in terms of how it's improved their gaming potential. Its probably the easiest way any man can improve themselves by +2pts on the looks scale.

Plus the health benefits for yourself, the added respect from other men, the improved sporting ability etc. There are a lot more benefits than just in gaming.

[RichieP]

(05-23-2016 01:29 PM)zatara Wrote:  

Anyone I know whos put on substantial amounts of muscle has found it night and day in terms of how it's improved their gaming potential. Its probably the easiest way any man can improve themselves by +2pts on the looks scale.

I disagree. For me going from 170lbs lean at 6'1" to 210lbs 6'1" (gains mostly muscle + a littttttle extra fat) was most definitely not "night and day", or anything like +2 points on a 1-10 attractiveness scale.

Got about the same level of girls, with about the same frequency. Girls I lost were due to shit game, girls I got were due to good game. Got opened about the same amount.

Some fringe benefits:

-Less shit from guys, more cautious around me
-FELT more confident, particularly in clubs

But overall adding ~30lbs of muscle was not a major lever in quality or quantity of chicks.

Lean, athletic, goodlooking --> somewhat jacked, goodlooking = marginal results. Field tested.

[zatara]

You put on 40lbs of 'mostly muscle' and got opened the same amount as before? And got with girls with the same amount of frequency? What country were you in? What age were you before/after the weight gain? What bodyfat % were you before and after? Were you out in nightclubs/bars/on the beach a similar amount at both weights?

That completely disagrees with my personal life experience, and that of anyone I know who's lifted weights seriously. At 6ft 1 170lbs you would have been skinny in clothing almost anywhere outside of Asia. At 210lb at that height, presuming you were a reasonable bodyfat % (say 15% or under) you shouldn't have been large enough to put off any women. But should have gotten a hell of a lot more attention.

[ElJefe1]

I agree go to the gym, make gainz.

[jj90]

Gainz are life brah. Every season is bulking season.

[trainwreck]

(05-22-2016 07:11 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Which all leads me to my point of wondering why the fuck the hottest chicks go after these kinds of guys...? Sorry if I sound like a salty hater, that's not my intent, but to analyze where we are with male/female attraction. I'm especially puzzled with the metro dude, I know women like in shape and well groomed men, but I also thought they value masculinity as core tenant of attraction. Personally I'd rather go without pussy or at least less pussy or less hot pussy, if it means I can keep my ball sack and act like a man should, not some metro dude that waxes his body hair, goes to the tanning salon, gets pedicures and does all kind of gay shit. Would much rather be true to my masculine self.

the hottest girls might go after these type of guys, but mostly for a weekend 1 night bang. I don't see high status girls around here in EE dating meatheads, unless we are talking girls who come from the hood and assimilate money and power with the hood gangster type of guy. The normal girl with a normal job would not be seen with these type of guys in 100 years. She'd be marked forever as a hood girl.

With american girls, maybe this is a true statement. And maybe for some type of women, but since I tend to like the more innocent (looking) and sophisticated type, I rarely see that any of their exes was a meathead. In the end, you always attract what you are.

[RichieP]

(05-24-2016 03:24 AM)trainwreck Wrote:  

the hottest girls might go after these type of guys, but mostly for a weekend 1 night bang. I don't see high status girls around here in EE dating meatheads, unless we are talking girls who come from the hood and assimilate money and power with the hood gangster type of guy. The normal girl with a normal job would not be seen with these type of guys in 100 years. She'd be marked forever as a hood girl.

With american girls, maybe this is a true statement. And maybe for some type of women, but since I tend to like the more innocent (looking) and sophisticated type, I rarely see that any of their exes was a meathead. In the end, you always attract what you are.

Same in western europe. Classy girls tend to avoid avoid gym bros. The only girls who actively pursue these guys are what would be considered "trashy" or "chavs".

What they DO like is the "tall handsome athlete" look - captain of the rowing team /swim team, etc, the rugby players (the leaner backs, not the hulking forwards). Not least beause of the social status associated with that.

Most guys who are jacked gym rats are not socially high-status. They are bouncers or jersey shore types, etc. They aren't typically very educated, big earners, socially smooth or suave. Often quite reactive and insecure (around both guys and girls).

The exception being the hustler archetype you mention.

USA/Aus maybe different. Even there though I dont believe classy educated girls are particularly hounding after meatheads.

[RichieP]

(05-23-2016 06:12 PM)zatara Wrote:  

You put on 40lbs of 'mostly muscle' and got opened the same amount as before? And got with girls with the same amount of frequency? What country were you in? What age were you before/after the weight gain? What bodyfat % were you before and after? Were you out in nightclubs/bars/on the beach a similar amount at both weights?

That completely disagrees with my personal life experience, and that of anyone I know who's lifted weights seriously. At 6ft 1 170lbs you would have been skinny in clothing almost anywhere outside of Asia. At 210lb at that height, presuming you were a reasonable bodyfat % (say 15% or under) you shouldn't have been large enough to put off any women. But should have gotten a hell of a lot more attention.

Western europe, age 21(Before)-24(after), same nightclubs in the same cities. It was muscle gain ceteris paribus, that's why I feel so confident in saying it didn't affect anything much. I noticed no difference in quality or quantity of chicks I'd get.

The only extra attention I noticed was the odd drunken 6 touching my arms at the bar. Oh and once some ropey 40 yr old came up to me in the mall after the gym to cop a feel, lol.

I DID notice a difference in my ability to blow their minds in bed, which I'm sure is a factor in keeping them around. But getting them? Honestly, I think it's marginal. Game is by far the bigger lever IMO.

[zatara]

(05-24-2016 06:23 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

Western europe, age 21(Before)-24(after), same nightclubs in the same cities. It was muscle gain ceteris paribus, that's why I feel so confident in saying it didn't affect anything much. I noticed no difference in quality or quantity of chicks I'd get.

The only extra attention I noticed was the odd drunken 6 touching my arms at the bar. Oh and once some ropey 40 yr old came up to me in the mall after the gym to cop a feel, lol.

I DID notice a difference in my ability to blow their minds in bed, which I'm sure is a factor in keeping them around. But getting them? Honestly, I think it's marginal. Game is by far the bigger lever IMO.

I'd be curious as to where exactly in Europe. I would completely understand if you were talking about going up 40lbs from 210lb to 250lb (at 6ft 1) and not getting more positive attention - I don't think anyone thinks the majority of women like the proper bodybuilder look that you'd be hitting at that kind of weight. But 6ft1 170lbs to 6ft1 210lbs is going from skinny to exactly the "tall handsome athlete look" you mention women loving in your previous post. That's not a particularly heavy size.

I agree completely that high quality women in most regions don't go for the "meat head" bouncer jersey shore etc look, but thats not something you accidentally make yourself. It generally involves multiple steroid cycles. Top international rugby backs would generally be considered a good mixture of athleticism, strength, and low bodyfat by most women (and men). Most of whom at your height of 6ft 1 are all roughly around 210lb (95KG):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Wa...y_union%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_Daly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Farrell

etc

The only way I can see you looking worse (or even remotely similar) aesthetically at 210lbs as to at 170lbs is if a good portion of that 40lbs you gained was fat.

[Sandstorm]

(05-23-2016 01:29 PM)zatara Wrote:  

Plus the health benefits for yourself, the added respect from other men, the improved sporting ability etc. There are a lot more benefits than just in gaming.

I think this is a very good point to keep in mind. I plan this year to try and hit the gym at least 3 times but preferably 5 times a week. I seriously need to work on my upper body and body fat (I'm skinny by nature but it's collecting in a roll around my stomach - too much sentient work-life has caught up) - I'm kind of an inverted V at the moment - narrow shoulders and measly chest with a distended belly, like some starving Ethiopian kid! - not a good look.

And I love what RichieP said about it improving his performance in bed - I could do with higher T levels for sure!