[MiscBrah]

I searched the forum but didn't really find anything that fit my question.

I am currently training for BUD/S and as a result, I am doing very high amounts of cardio everyday. However I would prefer to continue adding muscle and strength while I'm doing all of this.

My question is if I make up all the calories I burn from the cardio and add in extra sleep to help further recover, will my muscle/strength gains be significantly affected?

[Hallasan]

Are you counting your calories or macros? What about how many calories you're burning from cardio?

I'm guessing you're not, so getting into SEAL shape and simultaneously trying to build muscle will be extremely difficult.

How much muscle mass do you already have?

[MiscBrah]

(01-31-2015 02:59 PM)Hallasan Wrote:  

Are you counting your calories or macros? What about how many calories you're burning from cardio?

I'm guessing you're not, so getting into SEAL shape and simultaneously trying to build muscle will be extremely difficult.

How much muscle mass do you already have?

I am counting my calories (can post up some numbers if you need) but my calories burned from cardio vary significantly from day to day. I will admit that counting my calories is something I need to get better at. I have been lifting for almost two years and have a decent amount of strength and muscle built up already.

[Michael P]

As already said it will be extremely difficult to do those two at the same time. How difficult? It is only possible if you eat 6000-8000 calories upward. Please specify BW, body fat, volume of exercise, lifestyle, stress and the like so I can make a better approximation.

If you manage to eat ENOUGHT then you could do both, by implementing some exercises that hit a little of each. Squats, dead lifts, pull-ups, dips, military press and rows (the basic compound), with the HEAVIEST weight you can manage for 15-20 reps.

It will ameliorate your endurance QUITE WELL, but if you go over 20 THERE IS NO CHANCE of hypertrophy. With 20reps/set the hypertrophy will be very little if at all. The minimum you will get from this is maintain you muscle. By doing 1set/day/muscle group you maintain it even when dieting in an extreme manner.

If you manage to train with weights FIRST in a day and you have already good endurance, good enough to pass the tests, then you can trains within the 4-10 reps /set range (the ideal for hypertrophy [myofibrilar]).
If you cannot train fresh, then there is no point. And mind you that these exercises will take away much of your endurance for the day.

Again, eat what a normal man would consider ENORMOUS quantities. Or no chance.

You might get some help from exogenous androgens, but:
1. If you don't eat enought you are just wasting money
2. If you are not close to your genetic limit, don't do it. It will distroy the effect when you will really need it.

[Vaun]

of course it does, but if you are training for buds you should check out sealfit and follow their programming, and contact Mark Devine

[Hades]

If you're personally up to punishing yourself that much and can eat enough to not drop dead then I see no reason why you can't add muscle and strength while doing lots of cardio.

I avoid cardio like the plague and wouldn't consider running any more than a quarter mile at a time. It's just not natural. Mankind was borne unto the earth as the ultimate apex predator.

[Ryre]

(01-31-2015 05:31 PM)Michael P Wrote:  

As already said it will be extremely difficult to do those two at the same time. How difficult? It is only possible if you eat 6000-8000 calories upward. Please specify BW, body fat, volume of exercise, lifestyle, stress and the like so I can make a better approximation.

If you manage to eat ENOUGHT then you could do both, by implementing some exercises that hit a little of each. Squats, dead lifts, pull-ups, dips, military press and rows (the basic compound), with the HEAVIEST weight you can manage for 15-20 reps.

It will ameliorate your endurance QUITE WELL, but if you go over 20 THERE IS NO CHANCE of hypertrophy. With 20reps/set the hypertrophy will be very little if at all. The minimum you will get from this is maintain you muscle. By doing 1set/day/muscle group you maintain it even when dieting in an extreme manner.

If you manage to train with weights FIRST in a day and you have already good endurance, good enough to pass the tests, then you can trains within the 4-10 reps /set range (the ideal for hypertrophy [myofibrilar]).
If you cannot train fresh, then there is no point. And mind you that these exercises will take away much of your endurance for the day.

Again, eat what a normal man would consider ENORMOUS quantities. Or no chance.

You might get some help from exogenous androgens, but:
1. If you don't eat enought you are just wasting money
2. If you are not close to your genetic limit, don't do it. It will distroy the effect when you will really need it.

My approach would be different. I think long heavy sets will could overtax you. I'd do shorter, low-volume, strength-focused workouts to complement your cardio. Try to keep your strength up or even improve it while you do the intense cardio. So I'd suggest starting strength or power to the people style workouts, e.g. lift 3x/week alternating between a squat/overhead press day and a deadlift/bench day. Work up to a few heavy sets of 5 on each, then walk out of the gym feeling pretty fresh. (I assume you are doing bodyweight stuff, pushups and pullups, as well as part of your conditioning.)

That's my gut reaction.

[Que enspastic]

I'm running around 17km (10.5miles) every day Monday to Friday. I run to work and back. I burn around 1400 calories per day (a McDonalds McDouble Cheeseburger is about 390 calories).

High amounts of cardio does inhibit muscle growth. You can either pick heavy weight lifting or running but you can't pick both unless you are satisfied with mediocre results in both.

[Michael P]

(02-02-2015 03:39 PM)Ryre Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 05:31 PM)Michael P Wrote:  

My approach would be different. I think long heavy sets will could overtax you. I'd do shorter, low-volume, strength-focused workouts to complement your cardio. Try to keep your strength up or even improve it while you do the intense cardio. So I'd suggest starting strength or power to the people style workouts, e.g. lift 3x/week alternating between a squat/overhead press day and a deadlift/bench day. Work up to a few heavy sets of 5 on each, then walk out of the gym feeling pretty fresh. (I assume you are doing bodyweight stuff, pushups and pullups, as well as part of your conditioning.)

That's my gut reaction.

"Starting Strenght" by Mark or "Power to the People" by Pavel are the best books one can read in his first 10 years of weight training. Your gut Sir, is very wise.

Alas, from what he described I think he could not, without incredible effort do STRENGHT (3-8 reps/set) training also. I was suggesting a compromise of LOWERING the cardio volume and adding some edurance-strenght (15 reps squats).
But if you are keen on doing some form of high intensity weight lifting Mark and Pavel are gods.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(02-02-2015 03:14 PM)Hades Wrote:  

If you're personally up to punishing yourself that much and can eat enough to not drop dead then I see no reason why you can't add muscle and strength while doing lots of cardio.

I avoid cardio like the plague and wouldn't consider running any more than a quarter mile at a time. It's just not natural. Mankind was borne unto the earth as the ultimate apex predator.

Are you joking?
The human body evolved to be able to handle long distance running/migration, in many cases significantly more effectively than other animals.
Our pelvis efficiently transfers force from one side to another and is a major evolutionary feature.

I consider cardio a KEY feature of my weightlifting program. I currently strength train 6 days a week on a 2x3 split, and on the training days I do 30 minutes intense cardio as a warmup, on the non training day I do 45 minutes.
I've tried no cardio bulks, and felt like dog crap.
With cardio, I have a lot more energy when I work out this way, and I gain faster. My body comes alive and I feel younger, I feel energy and health in my veins.

Your heart is the most important muscle in your body.

[Hades]

(02-03-2015 06:40 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

(02-02-2015 03:14 PM)Hades Wrote:  

If you're personally up to punishing yourself that much and can eat enough to not drop dead then I see no reason why you can't add muscle and strength while doing lots of cardio.

I avoid cardio like the plague and wouldn't consider running any more than a quarter mile at a time. It's just not natural. Mankind was borne unto the earth as the ultimate apex predator.

Are you joking?
The human body evolved to be able to handle long distance running/migration, in many cases significantly more effectively than other animals.
Our pelvis efficiently transfers force from one side to another and is a major evolutionary feature.

I consider cardio a KEY feature of my weightlifting program. I currently strength train 6 days a week on a 2x3 split, and on the training days I do 30 minutes intense cardio as a warmup, on the non training day I do 45 minutes.
I've tried no cardio bulks, and felt like dog crap.
With cardio, I have a lot more energy when I work out this way, and I gain faster. My body comes alive and I feel younger, I feel energy and health in my veins.

Your heart is the most important muscle in your body.

That's a reasonable opinion to have, but I will stick to my guns in saying that man was not intended to steady state run, but rather walk from place to place and sprint short distances when circumstances require it. The idea of persistence hunting is a fantasy.

Cardio is detrimental to leaning out or gaining strength because it puts a buffer between the concept of food eaten versus fatness increased. You can eat more calories and not get fatter.

Once you quit doing cardio you inevitably get fatter again (i.e; every alumni of the Biggest Loser). Thus you have to go back to doing cardio to lean out.

This sort of destructive Sisyphean cycle is pointless when it's only a baseline of leanness that you're after. It also avoids the question completely. If food is what makes you fat, then why not learn how to eat properly instead of enabling bad habits with distance running?

But hey if you get results doing it that's great. I'm not going to say you shouldn't be doing whatever you find success doing. I've tried it before and for my goals it just doesn't work out. I actually got fatter and slept worse while doing cardio. I also generally felt like crap and couldn't seem to eat enough.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

(02-03-2015 08:36 AM)Hades Wrote:  

That's a reasonable opinion to have, but I will stick to my guns in saying that man was not intended to steady state run, but rather walk from place to place and sprint short distances when circumstances require it. The idea of persistence hunting is a fantasy.

Cardio is detrimental to leaning out or gaining strength because it puts a buffer between the concept of food eaten versus fatness increased. You can eat more calories and not get fatter.

Once you quit doing cardio you inevitably get fatter again (i.e; every alumni of the Biggest Loser). Thus you have to go back to doing cardio to lean out.

This sort of destructive Sisyphean cycle is pointless when it's only a baseline of leanness that you're after. It also avoids the question completely. If food is what makes you fat, then why not learn how to eat properly instead of enabling bad habits with distance running?

But hey if you get results doing it that's great. I'm not going to say you shouldn't be doing whatever you find success doing. I've tried it before and for my goals it just doesn't work out. I actually got fatter and slept worse while doing cardio. I also generally felt like crap and couldn't seem to eat enough.

I've always liked cardio, and seen it as the cornerstone of fitness - I was a competitive swimmer for a number of years. Even at the age of 14, I was already thinking of food in terms of protein, carbs, calories, vitamins, etc. So, I'm able to rapidly increase or decrease my calories to suit my workout needs and caloric burn. I was 20 when I stopped swimming, as I had gotten sick of 2 practices a day and spending 20 or more hours a week in the pool. I don't even swim except in the ocean these days, I fucking hate chlorine. Fuck that shit.
To me, my current weekly cardio of 30min x 6, and 45 on Sunday seems on the light side. But it also seems to be a good balance in terms of maintaining total body fitness and also not spending too much time in the gym. I'm also still feeling things out and seeing what my body can take at this stage in my life. I spent 3 years in a black hole after a back injury. I became a drunk and a stoner, and didn't work out at all. Depressed too. Fun fun fun. I'm still coming back from that. On the bright side, my body has been responding really really well to what I'm doing so far, and I'd estimate that by May I'll be back to form.

[britchard]

Man has evolved to go long distances. Reasonably fit humans are the fastest land animals over marathon distance. Even quicker than horses.

[Que enspastic]

Humans are really poor sprinters. We will get outsprinted by bears, hippos, elephants on average. Almost all medium - large quadpedal sized animals are quicker than us. Yet humans are incredible long distance runners. Kenyans can catch cheetahs and antelope. Humans can catch almost any animal despite having half the raw speed. Main advantages lie in our ability to sweat and regulate our heat through our pores, running efficiency and ability to carry water.

[Hades]

(02-03-2015 04:05 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

Humans are really poor sprinters. We will get outsprinted by bears, hippos, elephants on average. Almost all medium - large quadpedal sized animals are quicker than us. Yet humans are incredible long distance runners. Kenyans can catch cheetahs and antelope. Humans can catch almost any animal despite having half the raw speed. Main advantages lie in our ability to sweat and regulate our heat through our pores, running efficiency and ability to carry water.

I'm just saying, if a bear is chasing you you're not going to say "Man, if I kept this jog up for six hours the bear would get tired and fuck right off".

And persistence hunting has never happened in any culture except as a ceremonial gesture. If you have six or seven terrible hunters trying to chase down a deer over a period of twenty miles it won't even be worth eating and they'd all burn more calories trying to catch the deer and drag it's carcass back than they would gain, even assuming they'd catch the deer. There's opportunity cost to everything.

If anything that persistence running skill was more useful in warfare that predated the stirrup or when following a herd.

[Que enspastic]

Doesn't detract from the facts : humans are bad sprinters, incredible long distance runners.