[Sonsowey]

I read about 5x5 and it made sense to me. Do compound lifts, as heavy as you can, each rep is intense and helps break down muscle. Doing 3x12 or 4x12 means that you're doing lots of reps that aren't tearing down muscle, so you're essentially wasting your time.

Ok I bought it. I've been doing it for a while. I am skinny to begin with, I have gotten bigger and stronger, but I'm still skinny, just less so. I'd prefer to just add mass right now rather than being ripped. 6'3, 185 right now.

I started going to the gym with my friend and he doesn't have a "plan". He is much bigger than me, much more muscular, and he just does whatever.

For instance I go and do 5x5 bench, shoulder press, rows, and some stuff for my triceps and I'm done. He does much lighter weights than me but does Bench, flys, pushups, shoulder press, front raises, incline bench, elevated pushups, pushups with plates on his back, etc.

I am beginning to lose faith but I have always read "pick a program and stick with it" yet in front of my eyes I see no program doing better than what I do.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

How is your nutrition? Try adding in a half dozen eggs per day minimum and three or more glasses of whole milk. Do that for a month without reducing what else you're eating, and keep lifting hard, and I don't care whether you're doing 5x5 or some sort of mixed split, you will gain at least 5lbs if not 10 based on your current height/weight.

[Travesty]

I used to follow programs like this all the time. Didn't work for me either.

I had to experiment with how my body works. I over train extremely easily. I used to lift 4 times a week, 2 upper, 2 lower. That was WAY too much.

I have cut down to once a week and I found the few solid work outs that really help me. Bench never did shit for me and I religiously tried different grips, sets, weights, for years.

I switched to weighted dips and it did wonders.

Only pay attention to what works for you. If something doesn't work after 2-3 months than get rid of it otherwise you will waste alot of time spinning your wheels. Keep the stuff that works no matter how tempting it is to switch to other routines because of promised results.

Another examples is I did bent rows, preacher curls, concentration curls, incline bench dumbell curls etc... for YEARS trying to get bigger biceps. I just got a rowing machine not too long ago. My biceps are growing more from that and doing some reverse cable curls than doing the standard bicep builders.

[berserk]

Your friend probably just lucked out genetics wise. There are massive differences in inborn potential for muscle growth.

If you want to add some visible mass, then you can add some high rep sets at the end of the 5x5 sets, like 3x10 at light weight. That's essentially the Boring But Big add on to the 5-3-1 program.

Also remember to do your dips and pullups, both are excellent upper body mass builders.

Finally, nutrition is obviously important, need a caloric surplus, enough protein and enough energy to train hard in the gym.

That said, you can skip some of the heavy squat days if you feel they take too much energy and do some other exercises instead.

[Sonsowey]

(01-22-2015 04:14 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

How is your nutrition?

Breakfast today: 3 eggs and bacon, coffee with heavy cream, fresh veggies

Lunch: tuna veggie salad, green tea

Snack: mixed nuts and dried banana chips

Dinner: TBD, some sort of meat(or fish)/veggie combo.

Will have a protein shake or two before/after the gym.

I eat healthy, paleo-ish but not strict, and get a good amount of protein. Maybe I just need to kick the protein up a level higher though.

[WesternCancer]

^There's barely even 2000 calories there

if you want to gain mass you're going to need to eat sone carbs

[h3ltrsk3ltr]

I did the 5x5 as a way to get back into the gym. Once I felt comfortable, I started hitting low reps with high weight.

Word of caution though, I think that my aggressive switch to heavy lifting blew out my rotator cuff. A few weeks after hitting the gym harder than I was used to doing with a 45 minute 5x5 caught me and my muscles off guard. Now, I gotta get that shit looked at.

It really made a difference quickly though (the 5x5 program). I felt good about going to the gym and was always ready to push a little more each time. I added in nutrition and dieting as I went along over several months. It was nice knowing exactly what I was going to do and how long it would take.

As soon as I got off of it though, I underestimated the way the change would affect me. I think it's easy to ride the high of a 5x5 program into too big a wave of "normal" lifting. I have had to go back to the shorter, less powerful 5x5 program just to stay with it so when I get off, I'll slowly introduce the other shit again, like cables as a superset, rowing machines, doubling the workout and higher weights.

[Sonsowey]

(01-22-2015 04:59 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

^There's barely even 2000 calories there

if you want to gain mass you're going to need to eat sone carbs

Until recently I was eating lots of carbs, bread rice pasta sweets.

I've been having digestive problems and want to try being more strictly paleo for a while to see if they subside. If not, I'll go back to carbs.

[Hades]

Add some death sets in. Strength training should be brutal and you should regularly be pushing your limits.

Keeping all your reps and sets at 5x5 is an artificial constraint, is what I'm getting at. If you find the weight too light, then four sets of five and a set of eight will do more than 5x5 at that training intensity. If the weight is too heavy, then do what you can to emulate 5x5 but don't sweat the missed reps.

One time for instance I was doing SS (5x3, basically) and found out that on the bench press I could do nine reps on the last set. I wouldn't have believed it myself if I didn't just say fuck it and go for broke. Next time I used more weight. Problem solved, my "stalling" at the bench was all in my head.

[Travesty]

(01-22-2015 05:03 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 04:59 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

^There's barely even 2000 calories there

if you want to gain mass you're going to need to eat sone carbs

Until recently I was eating lots of carbs, bread rice pasta sweets.

I've been having digestive problems and want to try being more strictly paleo for a while to see if they subside. If not, I'll go back to carbs.

Buy white quinoa in bulk. I think it will be easiest on your digestive track and is great for protein. It's a super food.

[Sonsowey]

(01-22-2015 05:47 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

Buy white quinoa in bulk. I think it will be easiest on your digestive track and is great for protein. It's a super food.

I've had quinoa and like it, I'm gonna try grain-free for a while to see how I react after a few weeks, and then maybe I'll add some quinoa in to see how I react to that in isolation from other grains.

I have had dried banana chips and some other fruit based candy, as well as a tangerine. From the banana chips and candy its about 100g of sugars. Tangerine probably 10g. I had sugar in my coffee as well, only a teaspoon...

You think 110g of sugars a day is too little?

[H1N1]

My advice - as Western Cancer said, eat some carbs. Bread, pasta, sweets, are all refined crap, and I personally find they leave me quite bloated. Rice, rice noodles, rice crackers, egg noodles are all good carb choices. If you don't eat carbs, you are extremely unlikely to grow.

As far as the training goes, it will slightly depend on your goals. Generally though, my advice is - train as if the internet doesn't exist and you don't have everyone telling you X sets Y reps, or this or that exercise. Think about your own body, the physical feats you want to be able to do, the muscles you want to look developed, and think about how you'd get them to grow.

For example, if you believe the internet, bodyweight stuff is a waste of time, the only way to get big and strong is to back squat, bench press, etc, conditioning is for twigs, and so on. I bought into all of it when I started training. What worked for me was to cut back to 2/3 lifts, 3 times a week, conditioning of varying intensities 6 days a week, and a lot of high rep bodyweight work in the evenings or before bed, as extra volume separate from my strength work. I'm 10lbs heavier than I was a year ago, still with visible abs, and a lot stronger, even on lifts I don't train. This is despite the internet telling me that this could never be so, and despite the fact I don't use protein shakes, sometimes skip meals, eat bacon, eat to fuel performance not aesthetics, and train all my weighted work with low reps, moderate sets.

It's your body, own it, understand it and make it a reflection of your goals.

[General Mayhem]

I recently started lifting with one of my good friends who is way smaller than I am. He used to be dead set on carrying around a book and following a plan until I had him try what I was doing, and he loves my approach.

I don't really use a plan, but I have been lifting for a pretty long time so that helps.

I vary my reps a lot in my workouts. After you have been lifting for a while you have to do a lot of trial and error to find ways to keep growing.

Right now I usually start out with a heavy compound lift. My rep scheme is 12, 10, 8, 6, 4. Maybe down to 2 if I am feeling it. That's usually my cue to bump the weight up next time. This might be a bench press.

The next exercise is usually another compound lift, but with higher reps and very little rest. This might be an incline or decline bench press.

After that I do a more isolated exercise for heavier reps, around 8. This might be a fly of some kind.

Then maybe I will throw in a superset at around 12 reps. This might be tricep extensions and wide grip pushups.

After that I will add another set if I need to, but I don't always.

That being said, even though there isn't a plan there is usually some loose structure or method to the madness.

[berserk]

(01-22-2015 04:59 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

^There's barely even 2000 calories there

if you want to gain mass you're going to need to eat sone carbs

Or fat. Lots of good grass fed butter and olive oil.

Olive oil is insanely calorie rich as is derivatives such as pesto. A small jar of pesto is at least 1000 calories and it's cheap too.

Cook your chicken, fish or meat in generous amounts of butter and have a side dish or main dish with half a jar of pesto. Can add 500 cals easily from those two alone.

[civpro]

This is why it is pointless to obsess over routines and diet.

The most important thing in bodybuilding is TESTOSTERONE.

If you have a lot of it you can do anything and gain everything.
If you have a little of it you can do everything and gain nothing.

You really think it was a well timed dropset here or some extra broccoli there that caused your model bodybuilder to be so jacked, and not, hmmm, the fact that he has two to TEN times the average natural amount of the primary muscle building hormone floating around in his bloodstream?

As a natty lifter, fulfill the basic minimal inputs - high protein, caloric surplus & progressive overload - and then see where your genetics take you. You are not as in control as you think.

[Switch]

It depends. Are you increasing the weight 5 lbs every time you workout? Are you working out AT LEAST twice per week? Are you eating enough protein? Do you have a calorie surplus? How long have you been on 5x5? All of these factors are part of the program. Results don't happen over night. Your friend just has different genetics. Also, you're tall and it is easier for shorter guys to put on muscle mass, or it at least looks that way (5 lbs of muscle on a 5'6 person makes him look more muscly compared to 5 lbs on a 6'6 person, which probably doesn't make him look much bigger.)

[The Reactionary Tree]

Back in high school I did your typical body building style workouts with a rep range of 10-15 for 3-4 sets. Didn't really know what I was doing, didn't record anything. Then I became a lazy bitch for ten years and didn't lift. I started back up in July and have been doing a 5x5 combined with some of the traditional body building style of lifting. So I've been doing it almost 6 months now and it has been great. I make and record progress every week. Every so often I mix up the accessory work outs to keep it fresh and try something new. I've lost some fat, gained some muscle, and have gotten stronger. I'm a fan of 5x5.

[WanderingSoul]

(01-22-2015 04:06 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

I read about 5x5 and it made sense to me. Do compound lifts, as heavy as you can, each rep is intense and helps break down muscle. Doing 3x12 or 4x12 means that you're doing lots of reps that aren't tearing down muscle, so you're essentially wasting your time.

Ok I bought it. I've been doing it for a while. I am skinny to begin with, I have gotten bigger and stronger, but I'm still skinny, just less so. I'd prefer to just add mass right now rather than being ripped. 6'3, 185 right now.

I started going to the gym with my friend and he doesn't have a "plan". He is much bigger than me, much more muscular, and he just does whatever.

For instance I go and do 5x5 bench, shoulder press, rows, and some stuff for my triceps and I'm done. He does much lighter weights than me but does Bench, flys, pushups, shoulder press, front raises, incline bench, elevated pushups, pushups with plates on his back, etc.

I am beginning to lose faith but I have always read "pick a program and stick with it" yet in front of my eyes I see no program doing better than what I do.

I want to tear you apart right now but I won't lol.

How long have you been lifting consistently?
How long has your friend been lifting?
What weights are you putting up on your main lifts?
What is your TDEE?
How many calories are you eating per day?

[Saweeep]

You gotta eat more, fella.

Seriously.

[Kieran]

I like strength programs because I like order and routine, and I've never seen someone with decent numbers relative to body-weight that doesn't look pretty good, but there's no denying that hammering each muscle group with lots of exercises, and lots of volume, does bring results too.

[not_dead_yet]

(01-22-2015 04:57 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 04:14 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  

How is your nutrition?

Breakfast today: 3 eggs and bacon, coffee with heavy cream, fresh veggies

Lunch: tuna veggie salad, green tea

Snack: mixed nuts and dried banana chips

Dinner: TBD, some sort of meat(or fish)/veggie combo.

Will have a protein shake or two before/after the gym.

I eat healthy, paleo-ish but not strict, and get a good amount of protein. Maybe I just need to kick the protein up a level higher though.

Your diet is ridiculous, and it's holding you back.

I'm an ectomorph/hard gainer. I'm in my forties, 5' 9", 165 lbs., with body fat in the teens. I've been doing StrongLifts since last summer and I'm getting stronger and better defined. I'd have made more progress if I didn't hurt myself from bad form, but that's another thread.

That said, I'm trying to get strength without bulk, which means I'm one of the smaller guys that you'll see at the gym. When I'm lifting, I eat 3000 cals a day. On my rest days, I'm at 2000 cals a day.

You're six inches taller than me, you're barely 20 pounds heavier than me, and you eat less lifting than I do resting. Ignore everything else about genetics and testosterone and all that. Eat a lot more.

[heavy]

(01-22-2015 04:59 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

^There's barely even 2000 calories there

if you want to gain mass you're going to need to eat sone carbs

Shit that's about what I eat...course I'm looking for Brad Pitt Fight Club look, not big. But I didn't realize, but happy to know, that I am maintaining a generally low cal diet.

[Thug Muffin]

Just add in sweet potatoes and you'll have plenty of carbs.
I'll echo what everyone else is saying about your cals... it's pretty much the calorie intake of a 14 year old girl.

(01-22-2015 05:03 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

Until recently I was eating lots of carbs, bread rice pasta sweets.

I've been having digestive problems and want to try being more strictly paleo for a while to see if they subside. If not, I'll go back to carbs.

[H1N1]

You've got all the right advice here. You don't have to get carried away, just add in some carbs. To give you an idea, here's what I ate yesterday, at 6'1, 190lbs:

Breakfast: 3 whole eggs, scrambled in butter, 3 small slices of sourdough bread with plenty of butter.

Lunch: Homemade mince and vegetable soup made with real chicken stock, 1 large bowl. 4 rice crackers + cheese and ham

Snack: Ovaltene - This is good stuff. It satisfies the craving for something sweet, is cocoa rather than choclate in its final form, and is full of good carbs and protein.

Dinner: Chicken stirfry: 1 large chicken breast, spring greens, 1 large field mushroom, half a pepper, one onion, two squares of rice noodle.

Snack: 400ml whole milk


^^ This is not an enormous amount of food (dinner was pretty big though, but I like to do most of my feasting in the evenings). It is a lot less than you read about on the internet as being 'absolutely necessary'.

A typical day training, with that sort of quantity of food, would see me do a weights session - 2/3 movements, low reps, heavy weight, moderate sets (5-8), a hard conditioning session of some description (10x100m sprints, 1.5mile timed run, 5 mile run, 12 rounds heavybag etc), and then 50 pullups and 200 pressups in as few sets as possible before bed.

You don't have to eat crazy amounts, or eat protein until it's coming out of your ears, but you do have to fuel your body to perform.

[Sonsowey]

OK I'll try adding in more potatoes, sweet potatoes, yucca, plantains, bananas, etc. and see if I can stick to paleo and get the carb count up with fruits/tubers.